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So here is the question Can you have a Black Legion Army that is Thousand Sons, while taking formations from Traitors Hate?

As far as I can tell there is no restriction Since the BL requirements fall in line with TS, and because TH is simply anything that is CSM I can't really see anything stopping you from taking TH formations.

Edit: Changed the title from TS discussion to anything involving the Legions in general.

You can take any formation you want to, from any army.

Now, if you mean formation (core) choices for whatever specific Named Detachment, then it should specifically say which can be used.

More specifically, Black Legion army? As in color scheme? Sure.

Use the Thousand Suns army list from Wrath of Magnus and paint them Black Legion. Then take any formation you want. Cyclopean Cabal (from BL), or Heldrake Terror Pack (from TH).

I think he means, if it is possible to make a warband or other formations from traitors hate a thousand sons detachment.

In the wrath of magnus book you have the choice to say that a csm CAD is a thousand son CAD and you get benefits and have to follow some rules.

So exactly he wants to know if you can say that for example a warband can be stated as thousand son detachment with benefits and disadvantages for it.

 Darksider wrote:
I think he means, if it is possible to make a warband or other formations from traitors hate a thousand sons detachment.

In the wrath of magnus book you have the choice to say that a csm CAD is a thousand son CAD and you get benefits and have to follow some rules.

So exactly he wants to know if you can say that for example a warband can be stated as thousand son detachment with benefits and disadvantages for it.

Close, I am saying can I take a BL detatchment give everything in it MoT and VotLW call them TS BL then pull from TH Detachments.


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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
You can take any formation you want to, from any army.

Now, if you mean formation (core) choices for whatever specific Named Detachment, then it should specifically say which can be used.

More specifically, Black Legion army? As in color scheme? Sure.

Use the Thousand Suns army list from Wrath of Magnus and paint them Black Legion. Then take any formation you want. Cyclopean Cabal (from BL), or Heldrake Terror Pack (from TH).

Yes I understand that as far as I can tell the only hiccup comes from the Possibility of making a BL TS (or TS BL?) army and if so can I pull from both books, things like artifacts, WL traits, Formations, and on top of that is there any way to pull from books outside those three like TH Formations.

Let's start with quoting the rule since it's different than what they wrote in the BL and CS supplements.

"Any Detachment with the Chaos Space Marine Faction can be from the Thousand Sons.
A Thousand Sons Detachment retains the Chaos Space Marines Factions and is treated in all ways as a Chaos Space Marine Detachment, with the following modifications: ..."

I presume this is exactly what will be in traitor legions and the other legions will follow that template.
The detachments and formations in Traitor's Hate are detachments/formations of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. So they qualify to be modified. As would any CAD or allied detachment, including Forge Worlds 'The Purge'. Of course that wouldn't work with the TSons in the case of the purge.
You can make the Black Crusade a Thousand Sons detachment and gain both the TH rules as well as the improved invulnerable.
I imagine everybody would agree to that.

After that things get a little more complicated. Some people say that the formations that make up a decurion are not eligible to be modified because they aren't "simply" formations.
As far as I'm concerned, units belong to detachments/formations. Formations don't belong to a decurion in the same way. The models are part of a (core) formation and also a (decurion) detachment. So both can be individually modified.
Modifying the decurion affects the models within and even though the formations then aren't technically TSons, the models would still have to follow the modifications of the decurion, both restrictions and bonus special rules. And vice versa too, although then not all models in the decurion would be affected. Only those in the formation.

It gets even more complicated though. There are nine traitor legions that work the same way. So after you modify some csm detachment, let's say a CAD, it's still a csm detachment of the csm faction. Which is thus also eligble to be modified by a different legion. They didn't specify that a csm detachment can only belong to one legion (YET! They might include such a restriction in the traitor legion supplement...I certainly hope they do, but until then...).
So now you can have a TSons, BL, WB, AL, NL, IW CAD . Wonderful. Assuming you can meet the requirements that is, which we don't know yet. And furthermore, that could be a black crusade detachment aaaand then you could make the individual formations other legions yet...fun times.
It's not even clearly against RAI. Black Legion for example has quite a few TSons in its service, although I supoose that's what multiple detachments are for, but who knows with GW. They deliberately changed the way you make a Black Legion detachment, so what did they have in mind?

And on that topic there is yet another issue. What does Traitor's hate mean for the existing Black Legion supplement?
There would be two ways to make black legion detachments. But at this point that's complete speculation, even more than the other legions.

 Roknar wrote:
Let's start with quoting the rule since it's different than what they wrote in the BL and CS supplements.

"Any Detachment with the Chaos Space Marine Faction can be from the Thousand Sons.
A Thousand Sons Detachment retains the Chaos Space Marines Factions and is treated in all ways as a Chaos Space Marine Detachment, with the following modifications: ..."

I presume this is exactly what will be in traitor legions and the other legions will follow that template.
The detachments and formations in Traitor's Hate are detachments/formations of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. So they qualify to be modified. As would any CAD or allied detachment, including Forge Worlds 'The Purge'. Of course that wouldn't work with the TSons in the case of the purge.
You can make the Black Crusade a Thousand Sons detachment and gain both the TH rules as well as the improved invulnerable.
I imagine everybody would agree to that.

After that things get a little more complicated. Some people say that the formations that make up a decurion are not eligible to be modified because they aren't "simply" formations.
As far as I'm concerned, units belong to detachments/formations. Formations don't belong to a decurion in the same way. The models are part of a (core) formation and also a (decurion) detachment. So both can be individually modified.
Modifying the decurion affects the models within and even though the formations then aren't technically TSons, the models would still have to follow the modifications of the decurion, both restrictions and bonus special rules. And vice versa too, although then not all models in the decurion would be affected. Only those in the formation.

It gets even more complicated though. There are nine traitor legions that work the same way. So after you modify some csm detachment, let's say a CAD, it's still a csm detachment of the csm faction. Which is thus also eligble to be modified by a different legion. They didn't specify that a csm detachment can only belong to one legion (YET! They might include such a restriction in the traitor legion supplement...I certainly hope they do, but until then...).
So now you can have a TSons, BL, WB, AL, NL, IW CAD . Wonderful. Assuming you can meet the requirements that is, which we don't know yet. And furthermore, that could be a black crusade detachment aaaand then you could make the individual formations other legions yet...fun times.
It's not even clearly against RAI. Black Legion for example has quite a few TSons in its service, although I supoose that's what multiple detachments are for, but who knows with GW. They deliberately changed the way you make a Black Legion detachment, so what did they have in mind?

And on that topic there is yet another issue. What does Traitor's hate mean for the existing Black Legion supplement?
There would be two ways to make black legion detachments. But at this point that's complete speculation, even more than the other legions.

Yes but that leaves the question what book are you allowed to draw artifacts from? BL and TS? Only TS? Only BL? And can you use Formations from Wrath of Magnus to create a BL TS Army?

Quoted:" Units in a Thousand Sons Detachment or Formation that can normally take Chaos Artefacts from Codex: Chaos Space Marines can choose to take items from the Chaos Artefacts of the Thousand Sons list (see opposite) at the points cost shown instead."

"can choose to", aka it's optional. TSons can choose either vanilla or TSons aretfacts. So a detachment that is multiple Legions could choose from any of the lists the detachment is from. Although only one per character now that the draft ruling on relics is official.

AS for "And can you use Formations from Wrath of Magnus to create a BL TS Army?". I thought I answered that? That was the whole point of my post XD

Short answer: Extrapolating the TSons rules to the remaining Legions would indicate that you can mix as many legions as you want. Except for the god legions since other marks would be prohibited in that case. Special Character restrictions might impose further restrictions, but we'll have to wait and see.
Wrath of Magnus csm formations are of the chaos space marines faction and as such would also be eligible for modifcation. Unless you mean the current Black Legion rules.
In that case the same applies, they are to be treated as csm detachments/formations in all regards, so from a Black Legion perspective you can also make it a Black Legion detachment/formation. They could also use both lists of artefacts.

 Roknar wrote:
Quoted:" Units in a Thousand Sons Detachment or Formation that can normally take Chaos Artefacts from Codex: Chaos Space Marines can choose to take items from the Chaos Artefacts of the Thousand Sons list (see opposite) at the points cost shown instead."

"can choose to", aka it's optional. TSons can choose either vanilla or TSons aretfacts. So a detachment that is multiple Legions could choose from any of the lists the detachment is from. Although only one per character now that the draft ruling on relics is official.

AS for "And can you use Formations from Wrath of Magnus to create a BL TS Army?". I thought I answered that? That was the whole point of my post XD

Short answer: Extrapolating the TSons rules to the remaining Legions would indicate that you can mix as many legions as you want. Except for the god legions since other marks would be prohibited in that case. Special Character restrictions might impose further restrictions, but we'll have to wait and see.
Wrath of Magnus csm formations are of the chaos space marines faction and as such would also be eligible for modifcation. Unless you mean the current Black Legion rules.
In that case the same applies, they are to be treated as csm detachments/formations in all regards, so from a Black Legion perspective you can also make it a Black Legion detachment/formation. They could also use both lists of artefacts.

Okay, Thank You! Thats how I was interpreting it but wasn't sure if I was being Bias.

Yeah, the next question would be: can you take a formation from another CSM codex with a mark of chaos other than Tzeentch? For instance, Plague Marines?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah, the next question would be: can you take a formation from another CSM codex with a mark of chaos other than Tzeentch? For instance, Plague Marines?

Don't think that would happen. Since most of those formations will be filled with units that all have one mark or another.

So, even if Black Legion formations all have the restriction "this is a Black Legion formation", as they're still CSM faction, can they be a Thousand Sons formation as well?

I'm not sure where I stand on this.

I mean, fluffwise, plenty of Thousand Sons have joined the Black Legion and they hold a lot of power there. That is an explicit part of the lore.

There are even Thousand Sons with the Black Legion scheme in the CSM codex.

Despite that, double dipping legions doesn't feel quite right (even if Black Legion isn't even a real legion).

The Black Crusade Detachment actually looks an Awful lot better for building a thousand sons army than the Thousand Sons detachment.

What are the "Black Legion" detachments?

Are we talking about the Black Crusade detachment from "Traitors Hate"?

 Vector Strike wrote:
So, even if Black Legion formations all have the restriction "this is a Black Legion formation", as they're still CSM faction, can they be a Thousand Sons formation as well?

Since a TSons detachment is a csm detachment we can make it a Black Legion detachment. The other way round is currently...weird?
Black Legion formations are faction csm formations, so we can apply the modifications. But then we are told to treat it as a a csm detachment only...so then it's no longer a Black Legion formation?...soo...uhh..does that make it illegal or does that only remove the access to BL relics...but keeps the formation bonus?.....
I don't even want to think about that, hence why I left that part open in my first post. We don't even know if we can still use the supplement with traitor legions out, so the problem might not even arise. I'd rather not speculate right now.

As for "What are the "Black Legion" detachments? " Black Legion already have their own supplement with its own formations and relics and stuff.

So, if you have a black crusade detachment, could you declare a subset of the formations making up the detachment as thousand sons?

I would say yes. The counter argument is that you don't have permission to apply the rules to a detachment/formation that makes up a decurion. I don't believe that is necessary though. Decurion or not, they are still detachments/formations to me and as such are eligible.

 whitedragon wrote:
What are the "Black Legion" detachments?

Are we talking about the Black Crusade detachment from "Traitors Hate"?

Both


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The Black Crusade Detachment actually looks an Awful lot better for building a thousand sons army than the Thousand Sons detachment.

This is part of the reason I am asking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So, if you have a black crusade detachment, could you declare a subset of the formations making up the detachment as thousand sons?

Yes but it would have to be the entire portion of the detachment. So your core could be Plane Jane BL, and then you could have a Raptor Talon Formation that was TS.

I'm wondering if I could have fabius as a hq, and thousand sons core, and upgrade a unit of thousand sons marines.

Wait, what do you mean by thousand sons core? As long as you consider the formations that make up a decurion as normal formations, you can modify them. You aren't allowed to mix the wrath of magnus decurion formations with the traitor's hate ones.

Formations aren't simply marked as core or whatever. They are marked as core for a particular detachment. A bit like elites are marked as mandatory for a purge detachment. That doesn't mean you get to use elites as an alternative mandatory choice in a CAD. And neither do you get to use cores from a different detachment.

You could take a traitor's hate warband and make it a TSons formation while leaving the rest of the Black Crusade untouched.
The rest of the crusade isn't limited by the TSons requirements so you could take Fabius as a command choice and then apply his upgrade to the marines from the now TSons formation.
Although marked csm marines only have a 6++ base, so even with the TSons buff it's only a 5++. Well, unless you manage to snag forewarning or so.

Well the bonus invulnerable is for the obsec terminators, but there are ways and means of boosting regular marines to epic proportions.
Fabius+ jump artefact + forewarning why not.

Sure but I feel like tzeentch isn't the way to go if you want to buff basic csm. Especially since you could have jumping obsec termis with stormshield and poweraxes in the same formation.

 Roknar wrote:
Sure but I feel like tzeentch isn't the way to go if you want to buff basic csm. Especially since you could have jumping obsec termis with stormshield and poweraxes in the same formation.

Since when did CSM get stormshield?

A metaphorical storm shield. 5++ base+1 MoT, +1 from thousand sons blessing bonus.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A metaphorical storm shield. 5++ base+1 MoT, +1 from thousand sons blessing bonus.

my bad.

Thanks.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A metaphorical storm shield. 5++ base+1 MoT, +1 from thousand sons blessing bonus.

This ^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might be an idea to change the title of this thread to accommodate all legions as opposed to just TSons once we know the other legions follow the same pattern. Rather than potentially starting another thread on this.

 Roknar wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A metaphorical storm shield. 5++ base+1 MoT, +1 from thousand sons blessing bonus.

This ^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might be an idea to change the title of this thread to accommodate all legions as opposed to just TSons once we know the other legions follow the same pattern. Rather than potentially starting another thread on this.

Totally agree right now I'm waiting to see the rules associated with every legion before I do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I'm wondering if I could have fabius as a hq, and thousand sons core, and upgrade a unit of thousand sons marines.

You would have to use something outside of the new formations like TH or BL but as long as you did that you could totally do that.

I've sent a message to the facebook group asking if this is possible, but I want to send GW proper a mail too, you never know. Although at this point I'm pretty confident that RAI is that this shouldn't work. The rules seem pretty extensive and half the codex would be troops choices.

Fluffwise: sure
RaI: Probably not
Raw: *shrug* lol

Wrath of Magnus FaQ up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Wrath_of_Magnus_v1.0_Dec16-1.pdf

deals with Horrors