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I have a lot of Khorne Bezerkers, a lot of them. So I was looking forward to the new Traitor legions release which would give World Eaters some new punch and allow me to run them again... buuuut, well let's take a look:

 VeteranNoob wrote:

World Eaters (Blood for the Blood GOD!!!)
must: only Kharn; no psyker scum; only mk Khorne; VotLW, Demons must be of Khorne
gain: Berzerker Horde: Khorne Berz are troops; Blessing Khorne: VotLW have adam will; Butcher’s Nails: VoLW have fearless & furious charge
WT: Rampager; each boon table roll can instead boost attack stat by 1; at end of enemy charge subphase your unit can charge; re-roll hit/wound in challenge; locked in combat gain FnP & Eternal Warrior (yeah baby!); you $ friendly Mk Khorne w/in 8” charge 3D6 & pick highest
relics: can move 3” more; GOREFATHER [S+2, AP2, Armorbane,murderous strike(to-wound 6 = instant death, 2-handed, unwieldy]; pistol 12” S7,AP2,soulblaze; better deny witch; crazy S+1,AP2 axe does 2D6 attacks but each roll of 1 is a wound to you no armor saves; more killy axes
army: Blood Mad! after deploy/inflitrate but before 1st player starts turn all non-vehicle units can make immediate 2D6move(roll separate); ALSO non-veh & walkers can always re-roll failed charges
coe: haps warband, maelstrom of gore
command: Lord of legion
aux: 8
obj: deny witch; kill enemy controlling an obj; 3+ your units made charge; kill enemy in challenge (improves); destroy unit (improves); destroy in assault

So what do our beloved Bezerkers get?
Bezerkers are troops - But would you want to take them? We shall see...
Adamantium will - I won't complain.
Fearless - Good for the army as a whole but our little friends already have it.
Furious charge - Once again Bezerks already have it, as for the rest of the army it basically gives us the icon of wrath for free making this icon useless now. "But what about re-roll charge distances?" Oh yeah! Wait a minute...
Re-roll charge distances - So icon of Wrath is useless. However it is still a nice boost to our bezerks so +1.
Move 2d6 before 1st turn - This would be devastating if there is a way to give Bezerks either infiltrate or scout, but without those... meh.
Relic, move extra 3" - 9" movement is nice but looks like it only affects the one unit so will only work with a large unit of Bezerkers.

How does this work with formations?
Chaos Warband - Doesn't really add anything to Bezerkers killing power.
Maelstorm of Gore - Fleet, we already have re-roll charge distances. +3" movement, stacks with the relic for basically 6" extra movement but again only on the one unit so most of the Maelstom is still lagging behind. Red rain, only helps when they get into cc.

Here's what I said just before the leaks:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I can't wait to hear what world eaters get. They could make for some delicious combos.

It would be sad if TS get a way to make troops move 12" but world eaters don't.

So, TS get 12" movement on infantry units but World Eaters don't, sad.

My verdict:
Bezerkers still have the delivery problem: foot slog them and they aren't as fast, put them in transport and they don't benefit from any of they extra movement.
Bezerkers still have the survivability problem: out in the open they are as weak as a regular space marines.
Bezerkers at least hit like a hammer: once they get into cc they're pretty hard hitting with 4xS5 attacks each that will chew through MSU. (Watch out for hordes charging your bezerkers though, Ork boyz can bodyslam Bezerkers if they get the charge.


What does Dakka think?
Did this release fix Beserkers? Has anyone got any tactics that would make Bezerkers usable, i.e. allying with sorcerors (despite our hate for them).

Also thanks to veterannoob for the leaks.

Now, this may upset a fluffbunny, but you can, (and I fully plan to) ally sons with world eaters. Reap the benefit of the jump artefact
Now you get a unit which can move 2d6" at deployment, move 15" in the movement phase. And charge 2d6+6 inches, rerolling.
That's pretty good. Only one unit sure, but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The best unit for bezerkers is probably still the fist of khorne. Include a dreadclaw in your army, so the fist can do a T1 assault. Now you have two units of bezerkers capable of T1 assaults.

Berserker Marines were made useless actually. Compare to the regular Marine that, when equipped with MoK and VotLW and the extra CCW, and you'll see the only advantage they end up having is WS5. Gross.

However, outside of that the bonuses help everyone else. Raptors not assaulting out of Deep Strike become fairly nasty, Terminators won't care about losses with Fearless, and all you need is a couple of Juggerlords with various artifacts for a supreme Deathstar.

The maelstrom of war is awesome with the relic for movement. That initial movement from the decurion is, well, a move.
So this means that one unit in the maelstrom gets to move 3+2d6 before the game begins. Then it moves anther 3+6 and charges another 3+3+2d6 rerollable.
So let's assume a low average of 6 for the pseudo scout move and 8 for the charge.
That means the unit with the lord is almost guaranteed to get a first turn charge. They move 9 before the game, then another 9 in the first turn and charge another 14 for a total of a 32 inch threat range on turn 1.
And let's say you do take a another CAD with the jump relic. You could give that to any another maelstrom unit allowing for a average 29 threat range (6+12+11)
And on top of that, the lord from the maelstrom could take that relic where he looses Indep character and he goes off on his own for the same threat range.
You could luck out and get the warlord trait to charge 3d6 and picking the highest wich you can still re-roll and that's aoe. Maelstrom zerkers with that have a stupid long charge range. 12 inch charges with that are no problem at all.

That's 3 units that have a very good chance of making the assault turn 1, two of which would be zerkers. You could do it with marines too but it's a little riskier.
On top of that, should the warlord get the trait where you can assault in the opponents turn, the maelstrom movement assault phase could allow you to charge an extra time.
If you're suuuuuper lucky you could charge in your turn, kill, get charged, kill, charge in their turn and kill in your movement then charge another in the same turn and kill. Never going to happen but I like the idea lol.
For extra fluffyness you could get a fist of khorne and just multi charge with that to eat overwatch.

But yea, the maelstrom allows you to get three units charged turn 1 with some help and every now and then you roll like a boss and other units, maelstrom or not will make it first turn.
The only problem will be anti tank and how to get dirge casters into range. The only platform that is fast enough and available turn one that I can think of is a sicaran. Move 12 flatout 12 and prevent overwatch.

The warband can take dedicated dreadclaws to add even more heat. And you're not likely to mishap when loaded with assault units. they can assault earliest turn 2, so no need to get out. That allows you to drop safely, flatout 18 inch and then move another 6 next turn and charge 2d6. For the most part you'll still want csm/chosen over zerkers, but some zerkers help with threat saturation. In the fluffy role of throwing themselves into the fray first.
WE won't be a competitive choice, but they should be fine for normal games.

Ironically, for competetive play (ugh), a WE-player would do well to stay as far away from Berzerkers as possible.

Regular CSM, Chosen, Raptors, Bikers and Terminators are all great, but now with the newly added 'Legion Tactics', Berzerkers pay for rules that other units, i.e. CSM get for free.

Bikers and Raptors can utilize the 2D6" move better than footslogging units, and even among footslogging units, Berzerkers come out short.

A regular CSM with MoK has 1 less WS, but is 4 ppm(!) cheaper and can take special weapons.
A Chosen with MoK also has 1 less WS, but is 1 ppm cheaper, has 1 more Attack, has alot of options, and has a bolter in addition to their pistol+ccw.

It's a sad day to be a Berzeker. If only they'd had Chainaxes as standard equipment, then they'd both have something unique and something that warrants their current pricetag.

(Now, if you're a true WE-player, nothing of the above should affect you in any negative way. Keep spamming those lovely Berzerkers. Blood for the blood god! )

You're also paying for the privilege to be able to purchase Chainaxes.

It would have been nice for them to add something to Berserkers in those rules, just giving them an additional attack, count Rhinos as an assault vehicle. Something.

Unfortunately, it seems that the general trend is that the cult troops are falling behind the normal marines, a bit ironic for a Traitor Legion supplement.

It seems like they need a plastic re-do to warrant any changing of their rules, though given from what we got for Rubric Marines, that doesn't mean it'll be any better.

Well it's sort of a good thing. It's back to the sandbox days of build your legion. I suspect the cult units are all going to get an update before we see a codex (equivalent). That would make them the chosen equivalent for the legions. Just hope they get a better deal than rubricae lol. Scarab occult are decent though so there is that to look forward to.

 Grimskul wrote:
It would have been nice for them to add something to Berserkers in those rules, just giving them an additional attack, count Rhinos as an assault vehicle. Something.

Unfortunately, it seems that the general trend is that the cult troops are falling behind the normal marines, a bit ironic for a Traitor Legion supplement.

It seems like they need a plastic re-do to warrant any changing of their rules, though given from what we got for Rubric Marines, that doesn't mean it'll be any better.

Plague Marines are still better and Rubrics DID slightly improve though not by much thanks to a much better table. The way Rubrics and regular Marines act is completely different though.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoiler:

I have a lot of Khorne Bezerkers, a lot of them. So I was looking forward to the new Traitor legions release which would give World Eaters some new punch and allow me to run them again... buuuut, well let's take a look:

 VeteranNoob wrote:

World Eaters (Blood for the Blood GOD!!!)
must: only Kharn; no psyker scum; only mk Khorne; VotLW, Demons must be of Khorne
gain: Berzerker Horde: Khorne Berz are troops; Blessing Khorne: VotLW have adam will; Butcher’s Nails: VoLW have fearless & furious charge
WT: Rampager; each boon table roll can instead boost attack stat by 1; at end of enemy charge subphase your unit can charge; re-roll hit/wound in challenge; locked in combat gain FnP & Eternal Warrior (yeah baby!); you $ friendly Mk Khorne w/in 8” charge 3D6 & pick highest
relics: can move 3” more; GOREFATHER [S+2, AP2, Armorbane,murderous strike(to-wound 6 = instant death, 2-handed, unwieldy]; pistol 12” S7,AP2,soulblaze; better deny witch; crazy S+1,AP2 axe does 2D6 attacks but each roll of 1 is a wound to you no armor saves; more killy axes
army: Blood Mad! after deploy/inflitrate but before 1st player starts turn all non-vehicle units can make immediate 2D6move(roll separate); ALSO non-veh & walkers can always re-roll failed charges
coe: haps warband, maelstrom of gore
command: Lord of legion
aux: 8
obj: deny witch; kill enemy controlling an obj; 3+ your units made charge; kill enemy in challenge (improves); destroy unit (improves); destroy in assault

So what do our beloved Bezerkers get?
Bezerkers are troops - But would you want to take them? We shall see...
Adamantium will - I won't complain.
Fearless - Good for the army as a whole but our little friends already have it.
Furious charge - Once again Bezerks already have it, as for the rest of the army it basically gives us the icon of wrath for free making this icon useless now. "But what about re-roll charge distances?" Oh yeah! Wait a minute...
Re-roll charge distances - So icon of Wrath is useless. However it is still a nice boost to our bezerks so +1.
Move 2d6 before 1st turn - This would be devastating if there is a way to give Bezerks either infiltrate or scout, but without those... meh.
Relic, move extra 3" - 9" movement is nice but looks like it only affects the one unit so will only work with a large unit of Bezerkers.

How does this work with formations?
Chaos Warband - Doesn't really add anything to Bezerkers killing power.
Maelstorm of Gore - Fleet, we already have re-roll charge distances. +3" movement, stacks with the relic for basically 6" extra movement but again only on the one unit so most of the Maelstom is still lagging behind. Red rain, only helps when they get into cc.

Here's what I said just before the leaks:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I can't wait to hear what world eaters get. They could make for some delicious combos.

It would be sad if TS get a way to make troops move 12" but world eaters don't.

So, TS get 12" movement on infantry units but World Eaters don't, sad.

My verdict:
Bezerkers still have the delivery problem: foot slog them and they aren't as fast, put them in transport and they don't benefit from any of they extra movement.
Bezerkers still have the survivability problem: out in the open they are as weak as a regular space marines.
Bezerkers at least hit like a hammer: once they get into cc they're pretty hard hitting with 4xS5 attacks each that will chew through MSU. (Watch out for hordes charging your bezerkers though, Ork boyz can bodyslam Bezerkers if they get the charge.


What does Dakka think?
Did this release fix Beserkers? Has anyone got any tactics that would make Bezerkers usable, i.e. allying with sorcerors (despite our hate for them).

Also thanks to veterannoob for the leaks.

Well first of all adding scout or infil would prevent you from being able to charge first turn. Second of all with 2d6 movement the average number you will get will be 7 and higher and with a 66% chance of getting 6 or higher. So you are getting a scout move with out the restrictions. adding 3" to the charge with malestrom means you can very easily have a 1/3 ratio of units in close combat first turn. So for every 3 units you take you will probably have 1 unit that will be in CC on the first turn. Not to mention you're only looking at zerkers and not things like Raptors/Bikers, not sure on the fluff of world eaters but I'm pretty sure they use something fast that adding 6" to their movement will put them within 6" of an enemy unit at the end of the first movement phase, so do a multi charge with them lock up 4-6 units in CC while the rest of your army runs forward unmolested by shooting.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
Well it's sort of a good thing. It's back to the sandbox days of build your legion. I suspect the cult units are all going to get an update before we see a codex (equivalent). That would make them the chosen equivalent for the legions. Just hope they get a better deal than rubricae lol. Scarab occult are decent though so there is that to look forward to.

The real question now becomes what changes will come with 8th and how will it affect these rules. Because if they take to the AoS setup of hit on X wound on X then it will make any expensive units worth way less.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoiler:

I have a lot of Khorne Bezerkers, a lot of them. So I was looking forward to the new Traitor legions release which would give World Eaters some new punch and allow me to run them again... buuuut, well let's take a look:

 VeteranNoob wrote:

World Eaters (Blood for the Blood GOD!!!)
must: only Kharn; no psyker scum; only mk Khorne; VotLW, Demons must be of Khorne
gain: Berzerker Horde: Khorne Berz are troops; Blessing Khorne: VotLW have adam will; Butcher’s Nails: VoLW have fearless & furious charge
WT: Rampager; each boon table roll can instead boost attack stat by 1; at end of enemy charge subphase your unit can charge; re-roll hit/wound in challenge; locked in combat gain FnP & Eternal Warrior (yeah baby!); you $ friendly Mk Khorne w/in 8” charge 3D6 & pick highest
relics: can move 3” more; GOREFATHER [S+2, AP2, Armorbane,murderous strike(to-wound 6 = instant death, 2-handed, unwieldy]; pistol 12” S7,AP2,soulblaze; better deny witch; crazy S+1,AP2 axe does 2D6 attacks but each roll of 1 is a wound to you no armor saves; more killy axes
army: Blood Mad! after deploy/inflitrate but before 1st player starts turn all non-vehicle units can make immediate 2D6move(roll separate); ALSO non-veh & walkers can always re-roll failed charges
coe: haps warband, maelstrom of gore
command: Lord of legion
aux: 8
obj: deny witch; kill enemy controlling an obj; 3+ your units made charge; kill enemy in challenge (improves); destroy unit (improves); destroy in assault

So what do our beloved Bezerkers get?
Bezerkers are troops - But would you want to take them? We shall see...
Adamantium will - I won't complain.
Fearless - Good for the army as a whole but our little friends already have it.
Furious charge - Once again Bezerks already have it, as for the rest of the army it basically gives us the icon of wrath for free making this icon useless now. "But what about re-roll charge distances?" Oh yeah! Wait a minute...
Re-roll charge distances - So icon of Wrath is useless. However it is still a nice boost to our bezerks so +1.
Move 2d6 before 1st turn - This would be devastating if there is a way to give Bezerks either infiltrate or scout, but without those... meh.
Relic, move extra 3" - 9" movement is nice but looks like it only affects the one unit so will only work with a large unit of Bezerkers.

How does this work with formations?
Chaos Warband - Doesn't really add anything to Bezerkers killing power.
Maelstorm of Gore - Fleet, we already have re-roll charge distances. +3" movement, stacks with the relic for basically 6" extra movement but again only on the one unit so most of the Maelstom is still lagging behind. Red rain, only helps when they get into cc.

Here's what I said just before the leaks:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I can't wait to hear what world eaters get. They could make for some delicious combos.

It would be sad if TS get a way to make troops move 12" but world eaters don't.

So, TS get 12" movement on infantry units but World Eaters don't, sad.

My verdict:
Bezerkers still have the delivery problem: foot slog them and they aren't as fast, put them in transport and they don't benefit from any of they extra movement.
Bezerkers still have the survivability problem: out in the open they are as weak as a regular space marines.
Bezerkers at least hit like a hammer: once they get into cc they're pretty hard hitting with 4xS5 attacks each that will chew through MSU. (Watch out for hordes charging your bezerkers though, Ork boyz can bodyslam Bezerkers if they get the charge.


What does Dakka think?
Did this release fix Beserkers? Has anyone got any tactics that would make Bezerkers usable, i.e. allying with sorcerors (despite our hate for them).

Also thanks to veterannoob for the leaks.

Well first of all adding scout or infil would prevent you from being able to charge first turn. Second of all with 2d6 movement the average number you will get will be 7 and higher and with a 66% chance of getting 6 or higher. So you are getting a scout move with out the restrictions. adding 3" to the charge with malestrom means you can very easily have a 1/3 ratio of units in close combat first turn. So for every 3 units you take you will probably have 1 unit that will be in CC on the first turn. Not to mention you're only looking at zerkers and not things like Raptors/Bikers, not sure on the fluff of world eaters but I'm pretty sure they use something fast that adding 6" to their movement will put them within 6" of an enemy unit at the end of the first movement phase, so do a multi charge with them lock up 4-6 units in CC while the rest of your army runs forward unmolested by shooting.

I realise many other units in a WE army become much better but my point was that Bezerkers have been shunned in this release: basically everything a bezerker has a CSM gets for free, so that extra 4ppm is just for +1WS.

There are of course some builds, like you and others have mentioned, that can get bezerkers into cc turn 1/2 with some good roles and I will be trying out some of these tactics in my Khorne army. However this doesn't take away from the fact that bezerkers are now no more threatoning than a regular CSM squad dedicated to Khorne, rubrics may be overcosted but at least they have a 4++, Plague marines are now almost identical to Nurgle CSM but they can take two special weapons per 5 marines and noise marines of course get access to sonic weapons: it just feels as though they had an opertunity to make bezerkers unique again, with the TH and TL releases, but all they did was make them into expensive CSM.

(Of course I may be biased due to my love of Bezerkers, the fuzzy little murderers)

Zerkers are fairly bad now in a direct comparison. It's only in a WE detachment and in a maelstrom of gore that they get to do something that normal marines can't or at least have difficulties with.
4 points for +1 WS and to charge 3 inch more is decent, but is ultimately pointless without assault vehicles to back it up.
That's where the WE decurion bonus comes into play. It basically gives you up to two free turns of movement. That's the only time they are worth taking. But only because that formation doesn't allow to take marines instead. That and a juggerlord from maelstrom in that detachment can pretty much charge across the board lol.

It's painful for me as well, but take note that a new codex could easily adjust prices without invalidating the Traitor Legions book. Maybe in a year or two we'll get a new book with price adjustments for some of the harder to use units. Mutilators and Berzerkers are the only thing we have left that hasn't received some real buffing. Really, Berzerkers are dying for some new models. The sprues really should come with enough axes for everyone. Anyone that plays CSM probably has a ton of chainswords in their bit boxes.

Well, Berzerkers have a delivery problem. Footslogging is a slow way to die.
They are good in cc but not good enough when they encounter true cc specialists.
Fielding them or not in a list depends on list composition.

Well, maelstom of gore is 1-st turn charge. If you do get the 1-st turn. Maelstorm of Gore + tsons is a guaranteed 1-st turn assault. That's about the only thing they have above regular marines so far. We do need to see other avaliable formations if there are some.

If you want a more flexible force, go with regular marines. They literally become zerkers -1 WS for 15 ppm. Can take melta! They're gona be good in an objective game. Even w/o first turn, you can spam the board with a bunch of msu fearless marines that a non-melee opponent doesn't want to get close to. Means that at least for a couple first turns you're going to dominate the scoring game. If you go with warband, take a bunch of empty obsec rhinos. Heck, you can even get them havok launchers. The main strength would be a quick deathstar or two and a bunch of fearless relatively well priced footslogging marines + empty obsec rhinos. Fearless termicides with plazma and furious charge. Fearless havoks that don't fear mediocre melee as much as regular havoks. Yep, the warband is going to be great.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Berzerkers have a delivery problem. Footslogging is a slow way to die.
They are good in cc but not good enough when they encounter true cc specialists.
Fielding them or not in a list depends on list composition.

Normally, yes, but in a WE detachment and more specifically with a maelstrom core, footslogging somehow manages to be faster than a rhino that's going flat out.
Daemonkin gives you fnp to survive a turn just standing around and then you assault. WE just skip right ahead to being in melee.
They could totally skip transports if it wasn't for overwatch. And if you happen to get the WT that let's you charge in the enemy turn you might even get a chance to make good use of their movement assault phase.#
They still need to be better in melee, but at least that formation solves the delivery problem in a WE decurion.

In the warband you have to either pay for MoK on Havocs or get helbrutes which don't get the free move so their still slow. Plus it's more expensive base.
Though I think I might end up getting both. The other formations in the WE decurion don't exactly scream World Eaters. The Raptor talon gains nothing since it's easier to just do the extra free move.
And same for the terminators, although those still get hatred at least which isn't bad. And I can use my Terminator lord conversion XD

Im just going to use Zerker models with the red special weapon CSM I have and call them all regular chaos marines. Rules wise they'd be CSM, but in my mind they're more like 3.5 Berzerkers. If I cared more about the CSM side of Khorne (I prefer the daemons for use in AoS) I would get the bits so all my Khorne regular CSM have bunny ear helms so they would all look the same.

There are a few odd choices in the legions book. It may be that they've got a new CSM codex in mind and the new Zerkers in that book might be worth taking. I mean, there has to be new Zerker models coming that match the new Kharn armour, right? And they would need new shiny rules to sell them. I'm hoping this isnt too much of a stretch :p