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2016/12/06 20:10:28
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
From what I understand, if I can take a Skyhammer force and put Independant characters in it, though they do not benefit from the bonuses and will hinder the assault unit,
Is it possible to do the following.
1. Put a chaplain w/pack in a 10x man skyhammer assault unit
2. declare combat squads, chappy + 5x in one and 5x in other
3. Assault with one unit, but not the other with chappy is in it
or
1. Put a chaplain w/ pack in a 10x man skyhammer assault unit
2. declare combat squads, chappy + 5x in one and 5x in other
3. Deploy all 11x men, but separate them as 2x5 and the chappy by himself. (making 3 units)
4. Both 5x assault squads can assault, since chappy has left the unit
5. Chappy profits from a free ride???
Is this how this works?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 20:10:46
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
2016/12/06 20:17:34
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
No, it's not possible unless the Chaplain also has a rule that allows him to Deep Strike on Turn 1 with the Assault Marines. However, if he joined the Devastators that would be fine since the Drop Pod itself does normally have a rule that would allow it to Deep Strike turn 1.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
2016/12/06 20:19:42
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/12/06 20:21:28
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Ghaz wrote: From the Codex Space Marines Draft FAQ:
Exactly. But what if the Independent character breaks off from the unit IMMEDIATELY upon arrival. The assault phase hasnt engaged yet, so that rule doesnt apply yet. When the assault phase comes around, it then triggers, no? The assault unit arrives and then combat squads away from the chaplain. Or I declare that he has broken off from the unit
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yarium wrote: No, it's not possible unless the Chaplain also has a rule that allows him to Deep Strike on Turn 1 with the Assault Marines. However, if he joined the Devastators that would be fine since the Drop Pod itself does normally have a rule that would allow it to Deep Strike turn 1.
True. This is a backup to the plan I am trying to make. Thank you for that insight.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/06 20:22:50
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
2016/12/06 20:33:23
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Ghaz wrote: From the Codex Space Marines Draft FAQ:
Exactly. But what if the Independent character breaks off from the unit IMMEDIATELY upon arrival. The assault phase hasnt engaged yet, so that rule doesnt apply yet. When the assault phase comes around, it then triggers, no? The assault unit arrives and then combat squads away from the chaplain. Or I declare that he has broken off from the unit
How are you moving the Chaplain out of coherency with the squad in the Movement phase in order for him to leave the unit? You can only move in the Movement phase in which they arrived in order to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport and you specifically stated they were using jump packs.
Also, from 'Combat Squads' in Codex Space Marines
You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads, and which models go into each combat squad, immediately before determining your Warlord Traits. A unit split into combat squads therefore is now two separate units for all game purposes...
You no longer declare that your combat squadding a unit when it arrives on the board.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/12/06 20:40:15
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
@Ghaz - I suppose there isnt a way to get the Chappy out... huh.
Though I did know combat squads are done before warlord. Even so, if i declared combat squads, and had the chappy in one unit. That unit would not be able to assualt, but the second would be able to since "a A unit split into combat squads therefore is now two separate units for all game purposes..."
Right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 20:40:38
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
2016/12/06 21:03:44
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Yarium wrote:No, it's not possible unless the Chaplain also has a rule that allows him to Deep Strike on Turn 1 with the Assault Marines. However, if he joined the Devastators that would be fine since the Drop Pod itself does normally have a rule that would allow it to Deep Strike turn 1.
That's arguable in many ways, still. If the Chaplain was riding the Drop Pod, it would still be able to come in on Turn 1. A combined unit comes in all together, but nothing in the Draft FAQ properly addresses that concept one way or the other.
xSoulgrinderx wrote:@Ghaz - I suppose there isnt a way to get the Chappy out... huh.
Though I did know combat squads are done before warlord. Even so, if i declared combat squads, and had the chappy in one unit. That unit would not be able to assualt, but the second would be able to since "a A unit split into combat squads therefore is now two separate units for all game purposes..."
Right?
There are some confusing things with the Draft FAQ. On one hand they say that the IC won't benefit, but then in another they say that the IC won't benefit, but the unit can still do it. How? Got me. It's not like those Skyhammer rules require all models to have the rules for the unit to do its thing, after all.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/06 21:14:57
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
Since the units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force must appear on either the first or second turn, the Chaplain would not be able to join a unit from that Formation.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/12/06 21:55:36
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Ghaz wrote: There's the following from the Main Rulebook FAQ
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
Since the units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force must appear on either the first or second turn, the Chaplain would not be able to join a unit from that Formation.
And that is completely counter to what the rules in the rulebook state and the rules of the detachment state, though, much like the ruling on Transports and Battle Brothers.
And as I pointed out with the Draft FAQ, there are few times when similar situations are brought up when we are told that the IC cannot benefit or join with them in an action, but the unit can do it anyway. This does not help reduce the confusion of such situations.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/06 22:06:56
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Ghaz wrote: There's the following from the Main Rulebook FAQ
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
Since the units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force must appear on either the first or second turn, the Chaplain would not be able to join a unit from that Formation.
No model in the formation has a specific rule per its unit. Its a bonus that granted for the units, not a requirement to be a part of the formation. The battle brothers riding in same transports is what makes this not work in my eyes,
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 22:08:58
37,500 pts Daemon Army of the Gods
35,000 pts - X - Iron Tenth
15,000pts - Firehawks
7,000 pts - Nighthaunt
Dkok - 1850
2016/12/06 22:15:58
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Ghaz wrote: There's the following from the Main Rulebook FAQ
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
Since the units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force must appear on either the first or second turn, the Chaplain would not be able to join a unit from that Formation.
No model in the formation has a specific rule per its unit. Its a bonus that granted for the units, not a requirement to be a part of the formation. The battle brothers riding in same transports is what makes this not work in my eyes,
It doesn't matter if the model has the rule or not. Its who the rules apply to, and it does not apply to the Chaplain since he's not a unit from the formation.
EDIT: From the Main Rulebook FAQ:
Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.
If your Chaplain is from Codex Space Marines, he's not a Battle Brother to another Detachment/Formation from Codex Space Marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 23:25:31
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/12/06 23:22:06
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
No model in the formation has a specific rule per its unit. Its a bonus that granted for the units, not a requirement to be a part of the formation.
Bone up on what it says about Formation and Detachment Special Rules. The rules are possessed by the models themselves. For Command Benefits, the rulebook states, "This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment." The Special Rules section of a Formation Datasheet are provided two things: "Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here.", and "A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain."
xSoulgrinderx wrote: The battle brothers riding in same transports is what makes this not work in my eyes,
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.
And it still wouldn't work if they were the same Faction, apparently.
It doesn't matter if the model has the rule or not. Its who the rules apply to, and it does not apply to the Chaplain since he's not a unit from the formation.
Which ignores "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" as much here as it does for Stubborn. Gotta love this FAQ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 23:23:18
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/06 23:31:41
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
It doesn't matter if the model has the rule or not. Its who the rules apply to, and it does not apply to the Chaplain since he's not a unit from the formation.
Which ignores "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" as much here as it does for Stubborn. Gotta love this FAQ.
Reread the Main Rulebook FAQ (emphasis added)
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
He can't join a unit in the formation to "... count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes...".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 23:33:56
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/12/07 00:24:04
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
It doesn't matter if the model has the rule or not. Its who the rules apply to, and it does not apply to the Chaplain since he's not a unit from the formation.
Which ignores "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" as much here as it does for Stubborn. Gotta love this FAQ.
Reread the Main Rulebook FAQ (emphasis added)
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. If a Formation or Detachment must appear on a certain turn, that will preclude Independent Characters who do not have the appropriate special rule from joining that unit.
He can't join a unit in the formation to "... count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes...".
Which is counter to the rules for Independent Characters and adding an unwritten Restriction to the Detachment or the Special Rule which were not actively changed to reflect this.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/07 00:26:40
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Is it surprising that a GWFAQ is actually an errata? It closes a loophole that was never intended, IMHO.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2016/12/07 01:11:54
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Ghaz wrote: Is it surprising that a GWFAQ is actually an errata? It closes a loophole that was never intended, IMHO.
It is not an errata. It doesn't change the text of the rules. If it wasn't intended, then the rules should have been as specific as Fleet and Deep Strike, have Detachment Special Rules noted as not affecting ICs that are part of the unit, or specifically state that ICs only count as part of the unit for all basic rules.
They have a mechanic in the rules they provide, but do not use them. So, to say later they are not intended is rather disingenuous.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/07 01:53:48
Subject: Re:Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
The FAQ merely reaffirms what we know already from the Independent Character's Special Rule rule.
Spoiler:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.
Special rules are abilities by definition.
Spoiler:
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
The abilities of a special rule do not confer from the unit to the IC unless it is specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule).
There is nothing specified in the Skyhammer rule that would confer the Skyhammer abilities onto the Independent Character.
So the FAQ is really just a reminder to players like Charistoph that they should not forget the Independent Character's Special Rule rule. Most players did not forget the Independent Character's Special Rule rule, but enough players did to warrant a FAQ item.
For a more in-depth analysis, check out the spoiler below.
Spoiler:
Let's dig in and fully explicate why an Independent Character attached to a unit in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force does not get the Skyhammer Annihilation Force unit's special rules.
Consider the case of a 3 man unit of Crisis Suits which I think sheds light on the issues involved. You purchase Vectored Retro-thrusters for one of the models giving that model Hit & Run and Fleet. So basically you have a model that has Hit & Run and Fleet, but you don't have a unit that has Hit & Run and Fleet.
The thing to determine is if the ability of the special rule on that model confers to the unit or not.
Hit & Run reads "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule . . . can" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will confer to the unit and the unit will have the Hit & Run ability.
Fleet reads "a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will not confer to the unit and no model in the unit will have the Fleet ability.
The use of the indefinite article in "a unit" means that "a unit" itself is being used in a non-specific, general way. If all one says is "a unit" then nothing is being specified at all about "a unit". "A unit" can refer to a unit as described on an Army List Entry or it can refer to a unit with an Independent Character attached to it or it can refer to a unit that is shooting, or a Deathmark unit, etc. "A unit" could refer to a unit that has no models with a special rule.
But, we aren't just dealing with "a unit". We are dealing in the case of Hit & Run with "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule". "That contains at least one model with this special rule" is an dependent adjectival clause modifying "a unit". The adjectival clause provides information that specifies how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit. When we go to define what kind of unit the special rule will confer to, if we are dealing with a unit that has at least one model with the special rule . . . can" then the Hit & Run ability will confer from the model or models with the special rule to the unit. Since this dependent adjectival clause matches Stubborn's dependent adjectival clause in wording and function (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit) we can consider a Special Rule that has a clause to this effect to be "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".
#############################
So now let's consider the case of an Independent Character attached to 3 man unit of Crisis Suits where one model has Hit & Run and Fleet.
Essentially it works out the same way as when only one model in a unit has a special rule.
The Independent Character Special Rules rule simply reinforces the way the ability of a special rule propagates through a unit that is heterogeneous with respect to a special rule.
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.
The Special Rules rule requires that a special rule has something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".
In the case of Hit & Run, we have already identified that something to be the dependent adjectival clause ("that contains at least one model with this special rule"). Not only is the clause worded the same as Stubborn but it also works to the same effect (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit). We are simply dealing with the same specified kind of conferring from model to unit that we are dealing with in the case of Stubborn.
In the case of Fleet, not only do we lack the requisite dependent adjectival clause (i.e. something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule") but we have a dependent adjectival clause that prohibits the conferring of the ability of the special rule of the model to the unit unless all models in the unit have that rule, which nullifies the rule entirely.
#############################
Okay. So far so good. These are the results one would expect based on our discussion of the 3 man unit of Crisis Suits.
But what happens in the case of a rule like Objective Secured?
Objective Secured: All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
In the case of Objective Secured, the troop unit has the special rule but since there is no dependent adjectival clause "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)" the special rule does not confer the Objective Secured ability to the Independent Character. The models comprising the troop unit still have the special rule and the ability of the special rule, but the Independent Character does not get the Objective Secured ability since the Special Rules rule was not satisfied. So if only the Independent Character is in range of an objective then it cannot take control of the objective away from non Objective Secured units.
The Draft FAQ merely validates what I and several others have been arguing for quite some time now.
Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
In short, Stubborn is specifically phrased such that a unit that is heterogeneous with regards to a Special Rule will have the ability of the Special Rule homogeneously applied. Unless Special Rules are phrased along the similar lines as Stubborn, the ability of the Special Rules will remain heterogeneous and only be conferred to the models which actually have the Special Rule on their datasheet, which is the case for the Skyhammer detachment rules.
Special rules that are written along the lines of Stubborn allow the abilities of special rules to confer beyond the models that have the special rules on their datasheet. If they aren't written along the lines of Stubborn the abilities of the special rules stay locked to the models that have the special rules on their datasheet.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/07 02:13:29
2016/12/07 05:29:40
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
FWIW before the faq there were a few detachment/formation special rules that specified in the rule they extend to attached ICs.
As pointed out above, ICs never were blanket given permission for special rules to benefit them, unless the special rule specified it did so. It could have done so through saying it benefits the entire unit if one model has the rule (stubborn, stealth, etc) or by rules like "serpent's stride" which specify the unit benefits along with any attached IC.
Some people took the lack of denial as permission, and some people took the specified permission as permission.
2016/12/07 06:47:36
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
blaktoof wrote: FWIW before the faq there were a few detachment/formation special rules that specified in the rule they extend to attached ICs.
As pointed out above, ICs never were blanket given permission for special rules to benefit them, unless the special rule specified it did so. It could have done so through saying it benefits the entire unit if one model has the rule (stubborn, stealth, etc) or by rules like "serpent's stride" which specify the unit benefits along with any attached IC.
Some people took the lack of denial as permission, and some people took the specified permission as permission.
Stubborn states nothing about including ICs. Just requiring one model in a unit to have a rule literally does not include something you aren't going to be including in the first place. It also doesn't help as there are a couple USRs which do provide a condition ala Stubborn, but only affect models.
Either the IC is part of the unit or it isn't. If it is, then he can be "one model in a unit", and can be part of what is affected by the rule, and be affected by other rules that affect the unit, special or otherwise. If it isn't, then the reference to Stubborn is a lie and an IC cannot be "one model in a unit" and a Chaplain's Zealot won't help a unit he joins.
Stubborn only works between IC and unit because it specifically states it affects the unit AND the IC rules already tell you to treat the IC as part of one unit. The conditions of its activation do absolutely nothing for inclusion nor do they give/grant anything at all.
If a rule says a unit can charge after Deep Striking, then the IC as part of that unit gets to be moved and placed in base contact along with the original models of the unit.
If you feel otherwise, review the verbs used before "ignore" in Stubborn and look up their synonyms and the context they are used in. Ask yourselves the following: Which verbs actually give anything? Which verbs actually bring anything together? Which ones actually tell you to DO something other than check?
Otherwise, the alternative is that the IC is not considered part of the unit he joins and is fully accessible as his own unit, making Look Out Sir pointless for all but ICs like the Techmarine and Crisis Suit Commanders.
I don't know about you, but I prefer it when the IC is considered part of the unit for all the rules, just as it says, and not cherry-picking which rules they aren't a part of the unit with just because it "would be too powerful" or for no rules at all. ICs are not as strong as AoS characters and would not survive long on their own, and if you're going to start cherry-picking which rule groups you place an unwritten restriction on, you may find yourself losing out on games.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/07 07:10:16
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Stubborn states nothing about including ICs. Just requiring one model in a unit to have a rule literally does not include something you aren't going to be including in the first place. It also doesn't help as there are a couple USRs which do provide a condition ala Stubborn, but only affect models.
Either the IC is part of the unit or it isn't. If it is, then he can be "one model in a unit", and can be part of what is affected by the rule, and be affected by other rules that affect the unit, special or otherwise. If it isn't, then the reference to Stubborn is a lie and an IC cannot be "one model in a unit" and a Chaplain's Zealot won't help a unit he joins.
Stubborn only works between IC and unit because it specifically states it affects the unit AND the IC rules already tell you to treat the IC as part of one unit. The conditions of its activation do absolutely nothing for inclusion nor do they give/grant anything at all.
If a rule says a unit can charge after Deep Striking, then the IC as part of that unit gets to be moved and placed in base contact along with the original models of the unit.
If you feel otherwise, review the verbs used before "ignore" in Stubborn and look up their synonyms and the context they are used in. Ask yourselves the following: Which verbs actually give anything? Which verbs actually bring anything together? Which ones actually tell you to DO something other than check?
Otherwise, the alternative is that the IC is not considered part of the unit he joins and is fully accessible as his own unit, making Look Out Sir pointless for all but ICs like the Techmarine and Crisis Suit Commanders.
I don't know about you, but I prefer it when the IC is considered part of the unit for all the rules, just as it says, and not cherry-picking which rules they aren't a part of the unit with just because it "would be too powerful" or for no rules at all. ICs are not as strong as AoS characters and would not survive long on their own, and if you're going to start cherry-picking which rule groups you place an unwritten restriction on, you may find yourself losing out on games.
The reference to Stubborn in the Independent Character Special Rules rule is not a lie. It's pretty ridiculous for you to suggest that the BRB is lying to us.
Once again you simply need to apply and adhere to the Independent Character Special Rules rule. The FAQ is a reminder for you and players like you to not forget to apply it. Its as simple as that. So don't forget.
The Special Rules rule mandates that special rules do not confer between the IC and the unit he joins. The Special Rules rule mandates that the abilities of special rules stay put and only affect the models that have them on their datasheets unless they include something specified in the rule itself (as in Stubborn).
Stubborn is a model special rule (NOT a unit special rule) with phrasing that says something along the lines of 'a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule . . . .can [ability]' which specifically confers the ability of Stubborn from any model or models with Stubborn to the host unit of that model. Without that specific phrasing the ability of the special rules would stick narrowly to the models that have them on their datasheets.
I explain it all right here for you Charistoph. Care to comment?
Spoiler:
Let's dig in and fully explicate why an Independent Character attached to a unit in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force does not get the Skyhammer Annihilation Force unit's special rules.
Consider the case of a 3 man unit of Crisis Suits which I think sheds light on the issues involved. You purchase Vectored Retro-thrusters for one of the models giving that model Hit & Run and Fleet. So basically you have a model that has Hit & Run and Fleet, but you don't have a unit that has Hit & Run and Fleet.
The thing to determine is if the ability of the special rule on that model confers to the unit or not.
Hit & Run reads "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule . . . can" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will confer to the unit and the unit will have the Hit & Run ability.
Fleet reads "a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will not confer to the unit and no model in the unit will have the Fleet ability.
The use of the indefinite article in "a unit" means that "a unit" itself is being used in a non-specific, general way. If all one says is "a unit" then nothing is being specified at all about "a unit". "A unit" can refer to a unit as described on an Army List Entry or it can refer to a unit with an Independent Character attached to it or it can refer to a unit that is shooting, or a Deathmark unit, etc. "A unit" could refer to a unit that has no models with a special rule.
But, we aren't just dealing with "a unit". We are dealing in the case of Hit & Run with "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule". "That contains at least one model with this special rule" is an dependent adjectival clause modifying "a unit". The adjectival clause provides information that specifies how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit. When we go to define what kind of unit the special rule will confer to, if we are dealing with a unit that has at least one model with the special rule . . . can" then the Hit & Run ability will confer from the model or models with the special rule to the unit. Since this dependent adjectival clause matches Stubborn's dependent adjectival clause in wording and function (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit) we can consider a Special Rule that has a clause to this effect to be "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".
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So now let's consider the case of an Independent Character attached to 3 man unit of Crisis Suits where one model has Hit & Run and Fleet.
Essentially it works out the same way as when only one model in a unit has a special rule.
The Independent Character Special Rules rule simply reinforces the way the ability of a special rule propagates through a unit that is heterogeneous with respect to a special rule.
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.
The Special Rules rule requires that a special rule has something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".
In the case of Hit & Run, we have already identified that something to be the dependent adjectival clause ("that contains at least one model with this special rule"). Not only is the clause worded the same as Stubborn but it also works to the same effect (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit). We are simply dealing with the same specified kind of conferring from model to unit that we are dealing with in the case of Stubborn.
In the case of Fleet, not only do we lack the requisite dependent adjectival clause (i.e. something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule") but we have a dependent adjectival clause that prohibits the conferring of the ability of the special rule of the model to the unit unless all models in the unit have that rule, which nullifies the rule entirely.
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Okay. So far so good. These are the results one would expect based on our discussion of the 3 man unit of Crisis Suits.
But what happens in the case of a rule like Objective Secured?
Objective Secured: All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
In the case of Objective Secured, the troop unit has the special rule but since there is no dependent adjectival clause "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)" the special rule does not confer the Objective Secured ability to the Independent Character. The models comprising the troop unit still have the special rule and the ability of the special rule, but the Independent Character does not get the Objective Secured ability since the Special Rules rule was not satisfied. So if only the Independent Character is in range of an objective then it cannot take control of the objective away from non Objective Secured units.
The Draft FAQ merely validates what I and several others have been arguing for quite some time now.
Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
In short, Stubborn is specifically phrased such that a unit that is heterogeneous with regards to a Special Rule will have the ability of the Special Rule homogeneously applied. Unless Special Rules are phrased along the similar lines as Stubborn, the ability of the Special Rules will remain heterogeneous and only be conferred to the models which actually have the Special Rule on their datasheet, which is the case for the Skyhammer detachment rules.
Special rules that are written along the lines of Stubborn allow the abilities of special rules to confer beyond the models that have the special rules on their datasheet. If they aren't written along the lines of Stubborn the abilities of the special rules stay locked to the models that have the special rules on their datasheet.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/07 08:46:43
2016/12/07 17:00:12
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
The reference to Stubborn in the Independent Character Special Rules rule is not a lie. It's pretty ridiculous for you to suggest that the BRB is lying to us.
Well, according to the main rulebook FAQ it apparently lied to us (through omission) about Battle Brothers being able to be deployed in a vehicle with Battle Brothers. Actually, not just omission - if the vehicle with a unit is in Reserve, not letting the Battle Brother IC join is in direct contradiction of the Independent Character rules. Actually, he's saying that GW has changed their mind on how to handle some of this stuff, and have contradicted earlier statements. If you want to treat a position change from GW as them lying, that's on you.
2016/12/07 17:26:24
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
That some people chose to ignore a section if the rules, specifically that ICs and units with differing special rules do not automatically extend the rules to one another, was a player issue and not a change in position from GW.
Many players read the IC counts as a member of the unit for all rules purpose, then buried their heads in the sand and ignored all the paragraphs of rules after that which go on to detail how special rules and ICs work, in that they do not automatically get the special rules of the unit they join.
2016/12/07 18:06:20
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
blaktoof wrote: That some people chose to ignore a section if the rules, specifically that ICs and units with differing special rules do not automatically extend the rules to one another, was a player issue and not a change in position from GW.
Many players read the IC counts as a member of the unit for all rules purpose, then buried their heads in the sand and ignored all the paragraphs of rules after that which go on to detail how special rules and ICs work, in that they do not automatically get the special rules of the unit they join.
Yeah, I'm not one of them. I followed the rules and examples that are provided. I do not state the rules are extended, just that when a rule affects a unit, the IC is included in that effect, per how Stubborn operates and the reminders in IC and Ongoing Effects section. And I know I have told you and col_ignored all of this numerous times.
There are some who think that when we say a rule affects a unit, the unit gets that rule. This is a massive misinterpretation at best or a deliberately misrepresentative lie at worst.
It simply comes down to what are the conditions of the rule in question and who does it affect. Some state that the IC is not part of the unit for special rules, which is false and ignores several paragraphs in the rulebook, including the ones you are referencing.
Some imply or state that being affected by a special rule is the same as getting that special rule, but there is nothing in the rulebook that actually states this. It may be implied by Stubborn's caveat about Fearless, but that is as close as it gets.
Edit:I should also mention that I find it interesting, Blacktoof, that what you stated has only actually ever been stated on this board by people like you and col_ignored who have ignored the cases that I and others have presented regarding this situation. You and others then stated this as OUR position, which is why I responded to it. So, who else could you possibly be talking about? Or are you deliberately lying to misrepresent the situation and mislead other posters?
And I'm still ignoring you, col_ignored. Your deliberate ignoring of what other people state, particularly myself, and then misrepresenting what we have stated makes anything you state on this subject suspect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/07 20:07:07
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/12/07 19:47:55
Subject: Skyhammer and Characters - How does this work?
Charistoph wrote: I do not state the rules are extended, just that when a rule affects a unit, the IC is included in that effect, per how Stubborn operates and the reminders in IC and Ongoing Effects section. And I know I have told you and col_ignored all of this numerous times.
Special rules are abilities by definition, not effects.
Spoiler:
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Per the Independent Character Special Rules rule, the ability of a special rule do not confer from the unit to the IC unless it is specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule).
Spoiler:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.
Stubborn includes language in its rule that specifically confers the ability of the special rule from a model with the Stubborn special rule to the unit.
The Special Rules rule requires something along the lines of 'a unit that contains at least one model with . . . [name of special rule] . . . can . . . [ability represented by special rule]' that specifically confers the ability from model to unit.
Stubborn is specifically phrased such that a unit that is heterogeneous with regards to a Special Rule will have the ability of the Special Rule homogeneously applied. Unless Special Rules are phrased along the similar lines as Stubborn, the ability of the Special Rules will remain heterogeneous and only be conferred to the models which actually have the Special Rule on their datasheet, which is the case for the Skyhammer detachment rules.
Charistoph wrote: There are some who think that when we say a rule affects a unit, the unit gets that rule. This is a massive misinterpretation at best or a deliberately misrepresentative lie at worst.
It simply comes down to what are the conditions of the rule in question and who does it affect. Some state that the IC is not part of the unit for special rules, which is false and ignores several paragraphs in the rulebook, including the ones you are referencing.
It simply comes down to satisfying the Independent Character Special Rules rule which you are hand-waving away. Your line of reasoning only works if you flat-out ignore the Independent Character Special Rules rule. But, you cannot ignore it and call your line of reasoning the rules as written. The Independent Character Special Rules rule is a rule in the book, so adhere to it. And the FAQ is reminding you and any other player who thinks the same as you on this issue to adhere to that rule.
Charistoph wrote: Some imply or state that being affected by a special rule is the same as getting that special rule, but there is nothing in the rulebook that actually states this. It may be implied by Stubborn's caveat about Fearless, but that is as close as it gets.
Some may imply that, but I am not. Special rules are abilities so the conferring of a special rule is the granting of the ability and not literally the permanent transcribing of the special rule onto the IC's datasheet. Stubborn is a great example of how special rule abilities are conferred from the models that literally have them on their datasheets to the unit that hosts those models. If you don't have language similar to Stubborn's in a special rule then that special rule will not confer its ability to the IC, per the Independent Character Special Rules rule.
Care to comment on my full analysis below?
Spoiler:
Let's dig in and fully explicate why an Independent Character attached to a unit in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force does not get the Skyhammer Annihilation Force unit's special rules.
Consider the case of a 3 man unit of Crisis Suits which I think sheds light on the issues involved. You purchase Vectored Retro-thrusters for one of the models giving that model Hit & Run and Fleet. So basically you have a model that has Hit & Run and Fleet, but you don't have a unit that has Hit & Run and Fleet.
The thing to determine is if the ability of the special rule on that model confers to the unit or not.
Hit & Run reads "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule . . . can" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will confer to the unit and the unit will have the Hit & Run ability.
Fleet reads "a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule" meaning that the ability of the special rule of the one model will not confer to the unit and no model in the unit will have the Fleet ability.
The use of the indefinite article in "a unit" means that "a unit" itself is being used in a non-specific, general way. If all one says is "a unit" then nothing is being specified at all about "a unit". "A unit" can refer to a unit as described on an Army List Entry or it can refer to a unit with an Independent Character attached to it or it can refer to a unit that is shooting, or a Deathmark unit, etc. "A unit" could refer to a unit that has no models with a special rule.
But, we aren't just dealing with "a unit". We are dealing in the case of Hit & Run with "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule". "That contains at least one model with this special rule" is an dependent adjectival clause modifying "a unit". The adjectival clause provides information that specifies how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit. When we go to define what kind of unit the special rule will confer to, if we are dealing with a unit that has at least one model with the special rule . . . can" then the Hit & Run ability will confer from the model or models with the special rule to the unit. Since this dependent adjectival clause matches Stubborn's dependent adjectival clause in wording and function (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit) we can consider a Special Rule that has a clause to this effect to be "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".
#############################
So now let's consider the case of an Independent Character attached to 3 man unit of Crisis Suits where one model has Hit & Run and Fleet.
Essentially it works out the same way as when only one model in a unit has a special rule.
The Independent Character Special Rules rule simply reinforces the way the ability of a special rule propagates through a unit that is heterogeneous with respect to a special rule.
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.
The Special Rules rule requires that a special rule has something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)".
In the case of Hit & Run, we have already identified that something to be the dependent adjectival clause ("that contains at least one model with this special rule"). Not only is the clause worded the same as Stubborn but it also works to the same effect (to specify how the ability of the special rule of at least one model confers to the entire unit). We are simply dealing with the same specified kind of conferring from model to unit that we are dealing with in the case of Stubborn.
In the case of Fleet, not only do we lack the requisite dependent adjectival clause (i.e. something "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule") but we have a dependent adjectival clause that prohibits the conferring of the ability of the special rule of the model to the unit unless all models in the unit have that rule, which nullifies the rule entirely.
#############################
Okay. So far so good. These are the results one would expect based on our discussion of the 3 man unit of Crisis Suits.
But what happens in the case of a rule like Objective Secured?
Objective Secured: All Troops units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
In the case of Objective Secured, the troop unit has the special rule but since there is no dependent adjectival clause "specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule)" the special rule does not confer the Objective Secured ability to the Independent Character. The models comprising the troop unit still have the special rule and the ability of the special rule, but the Independent Character does not get the Objective Secured ability since the Special Rules rule was not satisfied. So if only the Independent Character is in range of an objective then it cannot take control of the objective away from non Objective Secured units.
The Draft FAQ merely validates what I and several others have been arguing for quite some time now.
Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
In short, Stubborn is specifically phrased such that a unit that is heterogeneous with regards to a Special Rule will have the ability of the Special Rule homogeneously applied. Unless Special Rules are phrased along the similar lines as Stubborn, the ability of the Special Rules will remain heterogeneous and only be conferred to the models which actually have the Special Rule on their datasheet, which is the case for the Skyhammer detachment rules.
Special rules that are written along the lines of Stubborn allow the abilities of special rules to confer beyond the models that have the special rules on their datasheet. If they aren't written along the lines of Stubborn the abilities of the special rules stay locked to the models that have the special rules on their datasheet.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/07 20:00:34
