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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/13 13:31:13
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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The Voidraven is sadly just bad, not enough fire power to remotely justify 160pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/13 17:23:13
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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gummyofallbears wrote:Eh, I don't like the idea of the scalpel squadron simply because the wracks aren't that good. They are a solid tarpit at best, but not against much that matters. They will tie up marine squads and the such, but what wont? I'll experiment with it but I don't have high hopes.
TT are probably my favorite BR channel out there, and Lawrence is a great guy and an even better DE player.
SkaredCast is also a great All-dar channel, a bit more optimistic and less competitive, but an awesome player that helped me get into DE easily.
My point was that if you take 2-3 scalpel squadrons they become very good as you have a useful almost guaranteed safe null deploy and they can accomplish things. Due to the artificial limitations many tournament/players put on detachment s and formation s who favor certain armies this just doesn't happen.
Wracks aren't great, but they also don't cost much. When their are artificial limitations on army building it makes scalpel squadron less viable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/13 23:46:00
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Hellion Hitting and Running
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Is there a reason to take blasterborn in a venom rather than a raider? If the blaster born is going up against tanks the added dark light shot would be better than poison shots that do nothing. Against most things disintegration would be better. It is only against light infantry that the poison shots are better but then you are losing the effect of having such powerful weapons. I think the venoms are better for regular warriors but unless I am missing something shouldn't raiders be the go to for blasterborn?
Also how do you guys compare venoms to starweavers (harlequin transport)? The starweaver seems better if you can take it but venoms can get objective secure which may be negligible on a flimsy craft.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/13 23:56:15
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Regular Dakkanaut
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lambsandlions wrote:Is there a reason to take blasterborn in a venom rather than a raider? If the blaster born is going up against tanks the added dark light shot would be better than poison shots that do nothing. Against most things disintegration would be better. It is only against light infantry that the poison shots are better but then you are losing the effect of having such powerful weapons. I think the venoms are better for regular warriors but unless I am missing something shouldn't raiders be the go to for blasterborn?
I believe that the Venoms can shoot at a different target than the Blasterborn, so the added firepower of the Venoms is better than a single dissy or lance
Also how do you guys compare venoms to starweavers (harlequin transport)? The starweaver seems better if you can take it but venoms can get objective secure which may be negligible on a flimsy craft.
I prefer the Venom due to longer range, but the starweaver is good for getting harlies near the enemy
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/14 00:46:03
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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Imateria wrote:The Voidraven is sadly just bad, not enough fire power to remotely justify 160pts.
I love it. I don't understand that at all.
It reserves for a round or so. It drops four shots including a massive bomb that almost never scatters when it shows up, 4 more deadly blasts the next round and then three the next. it's a gun boat. And if its around for a fourth turn still fires two good shots.
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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/14 01:01:16
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Agile Revenant Titan
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StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: lambsandlions wrote:Is there a reason to take blasterborn in a venom rather than a raider? If the blaster born is going up against tanks the added dark light shot would be better than poison shots that do nothing. Against most things disintegration would be better. It is only against light infantry that the poison shots are better but then you are losing the effect of having such powerful weapons. I think the venoms are better for regular warriors but unless I am missing something shouldn't raiders be the go to for blasterborn?
I believe that the Venoms can shoot at a different target than the Blasterborn, so the added firepower of the Venoms is better than a single dissy or lance
Yeah the Venom and the Trueborn can shoot at different targets, giving you a very versatile gun platform.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/14 12:58:45
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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Jancoran wrote: Imateria wrote:The Voidraven is sadly just bad, not enough fire power to remotely justify 160pts.
I love it. I don't understand that at all.
It reserves for a round or so. It drops four shots including a massive bomb that almost never scatters when it shows up, 4 more deadly blasts the next round and then three the next. it's a gun boat. And if its around for a fourth turn still fires two good shots.
It has two single shot guns in an edition where high strength, single shot guns are largely useless. There alternative is even worse because they're small blast, so if you jink (and with armour 10 you will be jinking at some point) they can't be fired and being small blast mean your likely to miss anyway. The missiles can be good, but now we're talking a minimum 200pt unit but now we have a mish mash of weapons that aren't certain whether they want to be anti-tank or anti- infantry. And the complete lack of Vector Dancer means keeping it on the table for 3 turns straight and still have targets is not at all easy.
Both of our flyers suffer from being overcosted for their abilities and confused on what they should be doing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/14 17:43:17
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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you dont jink them, you shield them and take your chances. thats what I do. oh and uh...as I mentioned, the VoidRaven works very well in my list because I have very angry pasty skinned evil in your face so fast that by the time the VoidRaven shows up, there isnt much "extra firepower" to spare for trying to down a bird on a 6. Doesi t happen? sure. Does it make me cry into my wee pillah at night on the infrequent times they do? It does not.
The VoidRaven Bomber takes advantage of my ability to corral the enemy, or catches them after charges or when they file through narrow spaces and so on.
Every list is different so if you are attempting to shoot people off the board as a general motif, then the VoidRavne bomber might have less of a role. But if you are melee oriented as I am in my Dark Eldar, then the VoidRaven comes to life. Its impressive firepower expresses itself very well when you overload the enemy with threats early and often, and i do.
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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 09:30:54
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Fixture of Dakka
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Jancoran wrote:you dont jink them, you shield them and take your chances. thats what I do. oh and uh...as I mentioned, the VoidRaven works very well in my list because I have very angry pasty skinned evil in your face so fast that by the time the VoidRaven shows up, there isnt much "extra firepower" to spare for trying to down a bird on a 6. Doesi t happen? sure. Does it make me cry into my wee pillah at night on the infrequent times they do? It does not.
The VoidRaven Bomber takes advantage of my ability to corral the enemy, or catches them after charges or when they file through narrow spaces and so on.
Every list is different so if you are attempting to shoot people off the board as a general motif, then the VoidRavne bomber might have less of a role. But if you are melee oriented as I am in my Dark Eldar, then the VoidRaven comes to life. Its impressive firepower expresses itself very well when you overload the enemy with threats early and often, and i do.
I play against White Scars, Eldar, DA's, Fast Daemons and Fast Tau. A melee focus list wont hold enough to stop them from getting away and all these armies have fliers... much better fliers than DE. So no matter what in my Meta you either have Amazing fliers or you ignore them. 160pts+ for a 1 turn 2-3 shot vehicles is wasted.
Ive read that you guess dont have Vehicle heavy armies. BA, basic SM, Tau, Admech, Necrons etc.. all play with a nice amount of vehicles, heck even CSM, KDK play with 4-6+ vehicles. So for my Meta Scourges with HWB are better.
It also depends on the meta you are in, my meta is heavy focus on mobility, WS getting in and out of Rhinos, many Jump and Jet units, Fast skimmers and chariots every where. Then there is Necrons.... stupid Necron vehicles.... So survivable due to lack of speed (but hte players have Wraths and Bikes for mobility and DSing).
Ravaers are terrible for same cost you can get a Talos.... If you where to take one I would use a 3x Dis Cannon one just for killing 2+ and hard to kill 3+ units. It is also cheaper too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/19 21:37:55
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Sinewy Scourge
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Gonna have to agree with the Ravagers, they are just not worth it, at least in my experience.
I played a game against cult mech and the talos was the MVP, so I'd rather have more of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/20 00:07:51
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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Amishprn86 wrote: Jancoran wrote:you dont jink them, you shield them and take your chances. thats what I do. oh and uh...as I mentioned, the VoidRaven works very well in my list because I have very angry pasty skinned evil in your face so fast that by the time the VoidRaven shows up, there isnt much "extra firepower" to spare for trying to down a bird on a 6. Doesi t happen? sure. Does it make me cry into my wee pillah at night on the infrequent times they do? It does not.
The VoidRaven Bomber takes advantage of my ability to corral the enemy, or catches them after charges or when they file through narrow spaces and so on.
Every list is different so if you are attempting to shoot people off the board as a general motif, then the VoidRavne bomber might have less of a role. But if you are melee oriented as I am in my Dark Eldar, then the VoidRaven comes to life. Its impressive firepower expresses itself very well when you overload the enemy with threats early and often, and i do.
I play against White Scars, Eldar, DA's, Fast Daemons and Fast Tau. A melee focus list wont hold enough to stop them from getting away and all these armies have fliers... much better fliers than DE. So no matter what in my Meta you either have Amazing fliers or you ignore them. 160pts+ for a 1 turn 2-3 shot vehicles is wasted.
Ive read that you guess dont have Vehicle heavy armies. BA, basic SM, Tau, Admech, Necrons etc.. all play with a nice amount of vehicles, heck even CSM, KDK play with 4-6+ vehicles. So for my Meta Scourges with HWB are better.
It also depends on the meta you are in, my meta is heavy focus on mobility, WS getting in and out of Rhinos, many Jump and Jet units, Fast skimmers and chariots every where. Then there is Necrons.... stupid Necron vehicles.... So survivable due to lack of speed (but hte players have Wraths and Bikes for mobility and DSing).
Ravaers are terrible for same cost you can get a Talos.... If you where to take one I would use a 3x Dis Cannon one just for killing 2+ and hard to kill 3+ units. It is also cheaper too.
Hmm... Not sure I followed this train of thought. I definitely see White Scar Battle Companies with unfortunate frequency, Fast Daemons and Tau, eldar etc... I don't understand why those armies would be inhibiting me. Most of the Grav stuff does nothing to my main melee units. Tau absolutely hate my army. Lol. It doesnt matter if they have "better" fliers" because you're not playing THEIR army. Right? So if they have better fliers, cool. Can't change it. But that doesn';t have anything to do with the VoidRaven Bombers abilities. Just means when they DO get the drop on you, your Bomber might be toast after it unloads on something. Might. Not before it does a number on something and if they don't kill it, which definitely can happen...
We are talking in context though right? i mean we are assuming you WANT to play Dark Eldar in this discussion. So pointing out that someone else might have a "better" unit in your estimation isn't really moving forward. People gotta' get over the fact that there might be a boogeyman waiting out there for them and just look at the Voidraven bomber for what it is: a massive amount of destructive power on the turn it comes in and possibly a massive amount over time that rivals any of its competing choices in the codex Im assuming you want to play? There's really not anything else in the Dark Eldar codex that hits harder in a shooting phase. Grav is going to eat Tau but it wont eat BeastPacks. It will wreck my transport with enough opportunities but it will barely scratch grotesques. and so on. Eldar are an issue for everyone so meh. Nothing I can do to stop that from being true. There again, if Im not playing Eldar and have chosen to play Dark kin, well... then i probably need more VoidRaven in my life (assuming my army list, which again is very heavily melee oriented).
i think the VoidRaven Bomber is what it is: another glass hammer that happens to hammer a lot harder than pretty much anything in the codex. Nothing else fires four weapons in a round. No other unit has a blast that will scatter at most, 2". None are 6's to be hit other than its fellow flyer buddy. None of the others have the AP and str that the Bomber will boast all at one time, nor the ability to split its fire in the turn it arrives. None will FORCE the enemy to deal with it like a Bomber will. It's good.
So from that perspective I really like it. If they throw a flyer at me and miss... or my shield eats it etc... they are kinda committed. All these things can happen.
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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/20 01:21:02
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Dakka Veteran
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I've always scattered bombs the full d6. Is that incorrect? For firing 4 weapons, the razorwing jetfighter does that as well and it also only gets hit on 6's while being significantly cheaper. I find the razorwing much preferable in general and that it is far more likely to get its points back.
I used the bomber in my last dark eldar game against iron hands actually. It killed 2 bikers the entire game... He shot at it occasionally with twin linked bolters from bikers when there was nothing else near them and almost brought it down without trying to. It was by far the worst investment of points in my army.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/20 01:22:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/20 01:24:15
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Fixture of Dakka
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You honestly dont understand? Mass S5-7 shooting in every unit with rapid fire Botlers all over the table almost everything is reroll 1's to shoot or TL.
Yes a 160pts flier will be shot down in 1 turn where Im at.
Again In my area it would be shot down instantly without even trying, I would have to always place it in bad positions for it to even stay on the table, then at the point its pointless.
And if someone takes fliers its Eldar/Necrons fliers or Storm Ravens.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/20 01:25:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/20 01:49:28
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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lessthanjeff wrote:I've always scattered bombs the full d6. Is that incorrect? For firing 4 weapons, the razorwing jetfighter does that as well and it also only gets hit on 6's while being significantly cheaper. I find the razorwing much preferable in general and that it is far more likely to get its points back.
I used the bomber in my last dark eldar game against iron hands actually. It killed 2 bikers the entire game... He shot at it occasionally with twin linked bolters from bikers when there was nothing else near them and almost brought it down without trying to. It was by far the worst investment of points in my army.
Its D6 - BS Automatically Appended Next Post: Amishprn86 wrote:You honestly dont understand? Mass S5-7 shooting in every unit with rapid fire Botlers all over the table almost everything is reroll 1's to shoot or TL.
Yes a 160pts flier will be shot down in 1 turn where Im at.
Again In my area it would be shot down instantly without even trying, I would have to always place it in bad positions for it to even stay on the table, then at the point its pointless.
And if someone takes fliers its Eldar/Necrons fliers or Storm Ravens.
Um. Okay?.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/20 01:51:01
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/20 02:21:28
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Fixture of Dakka
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@Jancoran I was just telling you sense you didnt understand.
If it works for you fine, but when someone else just shows its harder to play in their area you dont have to be rude about it.
I never said you played it bad or it doesnt work for you, simply that it wont work in my area (Trust me I would love to play it, its a wonderful model).
If you cant see why it doesnt work in my area then I dont think I can continue to talk about it.
@lessthanjeff I agree with you, the few games I tried it in it did very little to almost nothing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 00:24:20
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Regular Dakkanaut
Dallas, Texas
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My fliers/ravagers never really seem to make the impact I wish they would have. I mainly use them to try and coax a jink out of the enemy more than put the fear that something hard is coming their way. But maybe they should be looked at as a support gun vs a pure anti anything weapon. Scourges/blaster born have the better chance of blowing up the world, the long range fire power is there to strip off a last hull point. I like to use my bomber because I think it's the only large template option we have beside missiles? I wish it was s10 though, that would help a lot with some instant death.
Scalpel squads get random results for me. At 1000 points I was able to kill my friend's super librarian on a bike with my Acothyst on turn 1 and made his huge 20 man bike squad run off the table edge. And other times they were a great distraction but not much else. It helps with turn 1 deep striking to take care of a bad news elite unit (like lootas or Ork artillery that my friend brings en masse) I think another squad would be great to get first blood, but that's a lot of points for Wracks and outside of that one example, I haven't had too much luck with them. Maybe I'm not quite sure how to use them. Same with my scourges. They always seem to die before they can haywire things.
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Drive closer! I want to hit them with my sword! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 04:47:38
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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So i had a game vs orks today and i slaughtered em hardcore. I may have renewed love for the void raven bomber. The main reason being the shatterfield missiles hit his ork boyz about 36 times and wounded every time. He saved no more than 6 of those (probably 3) with his 6+ t-shirt saves if that even and he didn't even have 30 boyz left in that squad. Then the next turn the mega-nobs with pain boy were around and the void mine (bomb) dropped on em and killed everybody but ghazghkull which took a wound. Granted part of this is because his luck was garbage (he couldn't wound against my void raven even the one time he hit and i wiped out his lootaz and morkanaught before they could really damage the thing which in reality the lootaz were the only thing that could hurt em well enough.
The reavers also did some decent work wiping out his ork bikers with hammer of wrath and similar. The incubi did ok. The ravagers and venoms wiped out his lootaz before he even attacked and i managed to kill a morkanaught (i think that was the one) with one scourge squad with 4 blaster shots on turn 1. It was such a lucky shot he nearly thought he lost our 1750 pts game when it blew up turn one. I admit it was an insane roll. When only one pen'd i thought it was gonna suck but then i rolled a 6 for vehicle damage with the ap 2 blaster and blew it up. Then it blows up 5" and kills a bunch of ork boyz. I felt pretty dirty.
I also used my nearly dead raider as a means to force his ork boyz to go the long way around and hit something else instead of a unit i didn't want to die.
Anyway i basically tabled this guy after the end of my turn 4 (i had first turn). It wasn't as brutal as he thought it'd be but it was still a brutal game which was a total reverse of our last game where he destroyed me pretty well.
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Still fairly convinced i don't want haywire because there's too much chance any higher tier army won't take many vehicles or any that does much damage.
That said i'm finding a new love for void ravens. Enough in fact that i'm curious about taking a 2nd or at least switching out 2 void lances (str 9 ap 2 lance) for 2 dark scythes (str 8 ap small blast lance). The reason for this is in case if i fight enemies with heavy armor that the void mine or the dark scythes could kill. That said they are expensive and it might suffer from too many reserves and costing too many points for a unit that probably doesn't pull enough weight. I do find void lances to generally suck however which is a shame and having dark scythes would give me perhaps a couple high armored units to instant death.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/01 04:54:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 12:45:12
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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Jancoran wrote: lessthanjeff wrote:I've always scattered bombs the full d6. Is that incorrect? For firing 4 weapons, the razorwing jetfighter does that as well and it also only gets hit on 6's while being significantly cheaper. I find the razorwing much preferable in general and that it is far more likely to get its points back.
I used the bomber in my last dark eldar game against iron hands actually. It killed 2 bikers the entire game... He shot at it occasionally with twin linked bolters from bikers when there was nothing else near them and almost brought it down without trying to. It was by far the worst investment of points in my army.
Its D6 - BS
Your playing it wrong. Bombing Run says you scatter D6 and makes no mention at all of applying BS to it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 13:44:51
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss
Italy
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Gamerely wrote:My fliers/ravagers never really seem to make the impact I wish they would have
I don't like flyers either but i think ravagers can be quite useful. Not the mvp of the game but if played correctly they can do quite well. They tend to perform with a list with many vehicles so they're not dead turn one, for example i play a 1850 list with 10 vechicles: 5 venoms, two raiders (grotesquerie) and three ravagers. Those 9 lances are useful and quite cheap, a blasterborn unit costs 175 points, a ravager is 140 with night shields. Always take night shields, you don't want your ravagers to jink unless they're certainly dead if you don't. They should be placed in cover all game so with shields they always have a 3+/4+ cover save without jinking. I'm aware they're not the best in the world but still think they're the best anti tank we have. Scourges with haywire blasters are excellent against vehicles but useless against everything else and the same unit with different wargear isn't great, i'd avoid scourges with lances or blasters because ravagers and trueborn do their job much better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 17:19:09
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
Connah's Quay, North Wales
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Dark Eldar perform quite well alongside Harlequins. Harlequin formations/detachments are expensive, Dark Eldar ones aren't (HQ for a pittance and no core tax due to venoms being useful). Harlequins have no ranged AT to deal with high AV, Haywire Scourges are arguably one of the better units in the game at this. Harlequin jetbikes are expensive and hitty, Reavers are cheap and hitty. Harlequin troops want to be in your face, Kabalite Venoms want to be 24 inches away or more.
I think they both add a lot to each other and I've enjoyed playing them together, and I'd argue Dark Eldar supplement Harlequins better than Eldar in terms of supporting the Harlequins play style rather than imposing an Eldar one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 19:09:57
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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Imateria wrote: Jancoran wrote: lessthanjeff wrote:I've always scattered bombs the full d6. Is that incorrect? For firing 4 weapons, the razorwing jetfighter does that as well and it also only gets hit on 6's while being significantly cheaper. I find the razorwing much preferable in general and that it is far more likely to get its points back.
I used the bomber in my last dark eldar game against iron hands actually. It killed 2 bikers the entire game... He shot at it occasionally with twin linked bolters from bikers when there was nothing else near them and almost brought it down without trying to. It was by far the worst investment of points in my army.
Its D6 - BS
Your playing it wrong. Bombing Run says you scatter D6 and makes no mention at all of applying BS to it.
All blasts have the same rule. You are incorrect. Page 12 clearly tells you that scatter can be less than 2d6. Page 158 clearly tells you to reduce scatter by the bs. So as I said, it is d6 - BS.
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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 19:36:16
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Regular Dakkanaut
Dallas, Texas
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Blackie wrote: Gamerely wrote:My fliers/ravagers never really seem to make the impact I wish they would have
I don't like flyers either but i think ravagers can be quite useful. Not the mvp of the game but if played correctly they can do quite well. They tend to perform with a list with many vehicles so they're not dead turn one, for example i play a 1850 list with 10 vechicles: 5 venoms, two raiders (grotesquerie) and three ravagers. Those 9 lances are useful and quite cheap, a blasterborn unit costs 175 points, a ravager is 140 with night shields. Always take night shields, you don't want your ravagers to jink unless they're certainly dead if you don't. They should be placed in cover all game so with shields they always have a 3+/4+ cover save without jinking. I'm aware they're not the best in the world but still think they're the best anti tank we have. Scourges with haywire blasters are excellent against vehicles but useless against everything else and the same unit with different wargear isn't great, i'd avoid scourges with lances or blasters because ravagers and trueborn do their job much better.
One game I got really lucky with a immobile result. I had rolled into ruins and got it stuck, but with nightshields I never had to jink. It was the best. Just sat there and stripped hull points all day.
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Drive closer! I want to hit them with my sword! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 22:01:29
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Blackie wrote: Gamerely wrote:My fliers/ravagers never really seem to make the impact I wish they would have
I don't like flyers either but i think ravagers can be quite useful. Not the mvp of the game but if played correctly they can do quite well. They tend to perform with a list with many vehicles so they're not dead turn one, for example i play a 1850 list with 10 vechicles: 5 venoms, two raiders (grotesquerie) and three ravagers. Those 9 lances are useful and quite cheap, a blasterborn unit costs 175 points, a ravager is 140 with night shields. Always take night shields, you don't want your ravagers to jink unless they're certainly dead if you don't. They should be placed in cover all game so with shields they always have a 3+/4+ cover save without jinking. I'm aware they're not the best in the world but still think they're the best anti tank we have. Scourges with haywire blasters are excellent against vehicles but useless against everything else and the same unit with different wargear isn't great, i'd avoid scourges with lances or blasters because ravagers and trueborn do their job much better.
I can vouch for putting our ravagers into cover. You get to shoot without the jink. As far as ravager firepower goes i'm unsure about them. I only use the disintegrator ones and i'm not sure that's the best way to run em. I tend to hear people use dark lances for instant death and crappy more desperate AT.
I've also used empty raiders to bottle in enemy melee units on the ground when they're coming through a narrow pass. It can save a more valuable unit a turn of getting hit in melee provided your melee opponent doesn't have that much ranged firepower to just murder it and move over it which will still force it to be moving through cover and will still slow them down. Also even if the enemy does shoot at the raider you can jink and get your 3+ cover save with the night shields and they'll be wasting shots at that rather than something much more valuable.
I'm unsure about doing trueborn. You only get 3 elite slots and incubi and grotesques seem like they'd be a pretty good fit in either of them. At least with grotesque you can take them as allied covens so it may give your trueborn some room. Scourge on the other hand take up fast attack which gets a massive 6 slots and usually the best uses of those slots are scourge and reavers. You can take empty venoms in fast attack slots too but cover tends to be rather annoying to handle unless you take our melee units which is almost completely the best response dark eldar have to units with high cover saves.
As i said i'm unsure about void ravens now. I scatter the bomb the full d6" shown otherwise that'd be a massively accurate bomb and i'd absolutely love it. It should still be reasonably accurate but only having one means a bad roll can do you in. Void ravens bug me more for their cost (what is it 240 pts for 4 shatterfield missiles). That said the instant death possibilities and tough units that absolutely need to die (because of FnP and multiple wounds) tend to get owned by the void mine and possibly by the dark scythes. I've never used dark scythes but i'm curious if they do better than the void lances. I'm starting to think they would and considering i usually miss with one void lance completely the ability to instant death multiple units is more enticing to me.
Amishprn86 wrote:
@lessthanjeff I agree with you, the few games I tried it in it did very little to almost nothing.
Not gonna lie i too disliked the void raven merely for cost but my last game it did really well. You just have to make sure the enemy aa is silenced properly and it often depends who you face. The missiles (shatterfield) are great vs hordes and i killed a whole horde of boyz with them without needing to use anything else (probably 20+ boyz and i did like 36 hits which also all wounded due to shred and then 33 unsaved wounds which vaporized the unit) and after that i dropped a void mine on ghazghkull, a pain boy, a weird boy and 3 mega-nobz and killed all of them instantly except for ghazghkull who was wounded.
Honestly i think it depends what you face. It was probably a really great situation that sort of just happened at the right time (hordes and high armor, multi-wound t4 units with FnP). I don't think anything would be more effective against wulfen than the void raven and considering all their storm shields the shatterfield weapons are also good here. I'm more curious if i should take 2 honestly. That said i'll wait on that idea as it's an expensive model both in money and in points. I'd like to see more damage done first but i do think i'm gonna take out the void lances and run dark scythes due to lacking much good str 8 ap 2 blast (both small and large) or better in the dark eldar army.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/01 22:16:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 22:38:48
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Fixture of Dakka
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flamingkillamajig wrote: Blackie wrote: Gamerely wrote:My fliers/ravagers never really seem to make the impact I wish they would have
I don't like flyers either but i think ravagers can be quite useful. Not the mvp of the game but if played correctly they can do quite well. They tend to perform with a list with many vehicles so they're not dead turn one, for example i play a 1850 list with 10 vechicles: 5 venoms, two raiders (grotesquerie) and three ravagers. Those 9 lances are useful and quite cheap, a blasterborn unit costs 175 points, a ravager is 140 with night shields. Always take night shields, you don't want your ravagers to jink unless they're certainly dead if you don't. They should be placed in cover all game so with shields they always have a 3+/4+ cover save without jinking. I'm aware they're not the best in the world but still think they're the best anti tank we have. Scourges with haywire blasters are excellent against vehicles but useless against everything else and the same unit with different wargear isn't great, i'd avoid scourges with lances or blasters because ravagers and trueborn do their job much better.
I can vouch for putting our ravagers into cover. You get to shoot without the jink. As far as ravager firepower goes i'm unsure about them. I only use the disintegrator ones and i'm not sure that's the best way to run em. I tend to hear people use dark lances for instant death and crappy more desperate AT.
I've also used empty raiders to bottle in enemy melee units on the ground when they're coming through a narrow pass. It can save a more valuable unit a turn of getting hit in melee provided your melee opponent doesn't have that much ranged firepower to just murder it and move over it which will still force it to be moving through cover and will still slow them down. Also even if the enemy does shoot at the raider you can jink and get your 3+ cover save with the night shields and they'll be wasting shots at that rather than something much more valuable.
I'm unsure about doing trueborn. You only get 3 elite slots and incubi and grotesques seem like they'd be a pretty good fit in either of them. At least with grotesque you can take them as allied covens so it may give your trueborn some room. Scourge on the other hand take up fast attack which gets a massive 6 slots and usually the best uses of those slots are scourge and reavers. You can take empty venoms in fast attack slots too but cover tends to be rather annoying to handle unless you take our melee units which is almost completely the best response dark eldar have to units with high cover saves.
As i said i'm unsure about void ravens now. I scatter the bomb the full d6" shown otherwise that'd be a massively accurate bomb and i'd absolutely love it. It should still be reasonably accurate but only having one means a bad roll can do you in. Void ravens bug me more for their cost (what is it 240 pts for 4 shatterfield missiles). That said the instant death possibilities and tough units that absolutely need to die (because of FnP and multiple wounds) tend to get owned by the void mine and possibly by the dark scythes. I've never used dark scythes but i'm curious if they do better than the void lances. I'm starting to think they would and considering i usually miss with one void lance completely the ability to instant death multiple units is more enticing to me.
Amishprn86 wrote:
@lessthanjeff I agree with you, the few games I tried it in it did very little to almost nothing.
Not gonna lie i too disliked the void raven merely for cost but my last game it did really well. You just have to make sure the enemy aa is silenced properly and it often depends who you face. The missiles (shatterfield) are great vs hordes and i killed a whole horde of boyz with them without needing to use anything else (probably 20+ boyz and i did like 36 hits which also all wounded due to shred and then 33 unsaved wounds which vaporized the unit) and after that i dropped a void mine on ghazghkull, a pain boy, a weird boy and 3 mega-nobz and killed all of them instantly except for ghazghkull who was wounded.
Honestly i think it depends what you face. It was probably a really great situation that sort of just happened at the right time (hordes and high armor, multi-wound t4 units with FnP). I don't think anything would be more effective against wulfen than the void raven and considering all their storm shields the shatterfield weapons are also good here. I'm more curious if i should take 2 honestly. That said i'll wait on that idea as it's an expensive model both in money and in points. I'd like to see more damage done first but i do think i'm gonna take out the void lances and run dark scythes due to lacking much good str 8 ap 2 blast (both small and large) or better in the dark eldar army.
But for 200pts with missiles DE doesnt need AI.... we have some of the most AI in the game other than IG, I'd rather just just take 3 venoms. or 2 Dis Cannons Ravagers, or even 1 Razorwing and a venom.
If they work for you in your area thats great keep using it, its a wonderful model, but for me in my area even without fliers it wouldnt last past 1 turn on the table.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/01 22:51:43
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss
Italy
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flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm unsure about doing trueborn. You only get 3 elite slots and incubi and grotesques seem like they'd be a pretty good fit in either of them.
Incubi aren't viable nowadays, they're my favourite dark eldar unit aesthetically speaking but they have just a few attacks with S4 (also being one wound with T3) to justify their inclusion in a list. Grotesques are tipically taken as part of the grotesquerie formation so these elite slots are always available. Maybe in some games you can take just a single unit of grotesques but you'll alway have 1-2 free slots for other elites, so trueborn can easily be included. Problem is they tend to under perform as other units can do the same job with lesser points and maybe being more resilient too. Ravagers and reavers with cultrops are the best anti tank for dark eldar that are not strictly limited in stripping HP to vehicles. Trueborn seem to be fragile and expensive for what they do, maybe taking two units can be an interesting choice but i prefer other units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 01:24:02
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Fixture of Dakka
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Trueborns are costly....... I mean I'd rather have fire dragons 110pts and they all have melta guns, 3+ armor, +1 against vehicles, Melta bombs and.....battlefocus I mean really wtf
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/02 01:25:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 02:35:37
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Hellion Hitting and Running
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Amishprn86 wrote:Trueborns are costly....... I mean I'd rather have fire dragons 110pts and they all have melta guns, 3+ armor, +1 against vehicles, Melta bombs and.....battlefocus I mean really wtf
The sad thing is that firedragonsaren't even good enough to see play very often because eldar has more powerful things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 04:55:04
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Amishprn86 wrote:
But for 200pts with missiles DE doesnt need AI.... we have some of the most AI in the game other than IG, I'd rather just just take 3 venoms. or 2 Dis Cannons Ravagers, or even 1 Razorwing and a venom.
If they work for you in your area thats great keep using it, its a wonderful model, but for me in my area even without fliers it wouldnt last past 1 turn on the table.
The missiles themselves are anti-infantry but the void mine and the dark scythes should be what you really want. The only strength 8 weapons we have with ap 2 are blasters and dark lances. Where do we go for blasts with str 8 ap 2 or above. There's not one area with it besides the void raven and you need it to instant death high armor targets with toughness 4. I mean i suppose you could spam poisoned shots at things like wulfen but then they get their 3+ followed by a FnP save and they still get those saves when going against dissie ravagers. It's more that they're really hard to take down and not only that but the only other instant death we have is in melee which is suicide vs wulfen even if you take grotesques for that job.
Perhaps i'm just letting a good game with the void raven control my perspective too much. I mean again tau there's a good chance it wouldn't be so hot. However it tends to destroy terminators and lots of other things (stuff that might end in mutual destruction for both an enemy unit and incubi).
I've actually mostly stopped relying on poison. It's ok but not great. If i have to kill infantry some grotesques, reavers or incubi do that job much better and all 3 tend to supplement all the melee situations well (and they all handle enemies in cover better than our other options). However against some super melee units (storm shield enemies, heavily armored FnP t4 units and wulfen) we can't use melee as a good answer to those infantry. Against storm shields i normally use poison but for the fairly tough, heavily armored infantry with multiple wounds and FnP that's where the void raven and blasters come around.
Far as the rest of the game goes most of the really tough factions don't even take vehicles anymore (except super heavies and knights from time to time). It's happened so frequently i stopped taking haywire for the mere possibility that i wasted all those points for nothing and it's usually against an army that is an uphill battle for dark eldar without the wasted points in haywire.
So for the most part not a lot of vehicles to face, lots of cover, lots of super heavies and monstrous creatures. Generally a good situation for melee, blasters with small focus on heat lance and the void raven with void mine and some dark scythes.
That said i probably am not that great of a dark eldar player but it's what i've seen.
Amishprn86 wrote:Trueborns are costly....... I mean I'd rather have fire dragons 110pts and they all have melta guns, 3+ armor, +1 against vehicles, Melta bombs and.....battlefocus I mean really wtf
The people i play against at the store don't take that many vehicles but when they take them it's usually the super tough super-heavies. That's really about it (so basically most vehicle damage is crap so you may as well strip wounds). I suppose that's where haywire would be good but against some enemies like tau i had a really bad experience where it was just 240 pts of 2 haywire scourge units that were just free kill points or better yet didn't need him bothering with em at all.
I don't use trueborn yet and i'll admit have scourge for that role which is probably awful (12" move and shoot is nice but if focused down they'd die). Normally the scariest enemies with vehicles are guard. I will admit it's not easy to kill all those tanks and they often stay in gun-line with a shield wall meaning a 3+ cover save with camo netting and 2+ if they get night fight (though vs dark eldar we have night vision). That alone insults me being dark eldar that their whole force can come with deployable cover giving their multiple av 14 front armor tanks a 2+ cover on turn 1 if they get night fight. So yeah heat lance scourge with archon and webway portal with some heat lance reavers would help sorta.
I imagine if you take blaster trueborn scooting a raider with em into cover (if you were facing a gun-line) would help tremendously (night shields). The 18" range should mean you can at least manage a sort of 3+ cover save frequently with em even on turn 1.
Anyway i dunno. I suppose in some cases haywire could be good but half the time enemies don't even take vehicles. I've just been burned too badly for taking haywire against some of our hardest match-ups (space wolves, tau, etc.).
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Honestly what Dark Eldar should get is the ability to switch units around the battlefield or be able to somewhat cater their forces. I make lists before hand but you're telling me the ambush faction that plots out each of their attacks before it happens won't understand what factions they will be fighting. Also we should almost always have the element of surprise so a turn 1 steal should be pretty much allowed. I mean crap even possibly an 'ambushed' scenario where the dark eldar player gets to place some of his enemy's units (D3 of certain types of units or something) to represent nobody was expecting them would be nice.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/02 05:22:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 12:28:45
Subject: Re:Dark Eldar
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Fixture of Dakka
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flamingkillamajig wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:
But for 200pts with missiles DE doesnt need AI.... we have some of the most AI in the game other than IG, I'd rather just just take 3 venoms. or 2 Dis Cannons Ravagers, or even 1 Razorwing and a venom.
If they work for you in your area thats great keep using it, its a wonderful model, but for me in my area even without fliers it wouldnt last past 1 turn on the table.
The missiles themselves are anti-infantry but the void mine and the dark scythes should be what you really want. The only strength 8 weapons we have with ap 2 are blasters and dark lances. Where do we go for blasts with str 8 ap 2 or above. There's not one area with it besides the void raven and you need it to instant death high armor targets with toughness 4. I mean i suppose you could spam poisoned shots at things like wulfen but then they get their 3+ followed by a FnP save and they still get those saves when going against dissie ravagers. It's more that they're really hard to take down and not only that but the only other instant death we have is in melee which is suicide vs wulfen even if you take grotesques for that job.
Perhaps i'm just letting a good game with the void raven control my perspective too much. I mean again tau there's a good chance it wouldn't be so hot. However it tends to destroy terminators and lots of other things (stuff that might end in mutual destruction for both an enemy unit and incubi).
I've actually mostly stopped relying on poison. It's ok but not great. If i have to kill infantry some grotesques, reavers or incubi do that job much better and all 3 tend to supplement all the melee situations well (and they all handle enemies in cover better than our other options). However against some super melee units (storm shield enemies, heavily armored FnP t4 units and wulfen) we can't use melee as a good answer to those infantry. Against storm shields i normally use poison but for the fairly tough, heavily armored infantry with multiple wounds and FnP that's where the void raven and blasters come around.
Far as the rest of the game goes most of the really tough factions don't even take vehicles anymore (except super heavies and knights from time to time). It's happened so frequently i stopped taking haywire for the mere possibility that i wasted all those points for nothing and it's usually against an army that is an uphill battle for dark eldar without the wasted points in haywire.
So for the most part not a lot of vehicles to face, lots of cover, lots of super heavies and monstrous creatures. Generally a good situation for melee, blasters with small focus on heat lance and the void raven with void mine and some dark scythes.
That said i probably am not that great of a dark eldar player but it's what i've seen.
Amishprn86 wrote:Trueborns are costly....... I mean I'd rather have fire dragons 110pts and they all have melta guns, 3+ armor, +1 against vehicles, Melta bombs and.....battlefocus I mean really wtf
The people i play against at the store don't take that many vehicles but when they take them it's usually the super tough super-heavies. That's really about it (so basically most vehicle damage is crap so you may as well strip wounds). I suppose that's where haywire would be good but against some enemies like tau i had a really bad experience where it was just 240 pts of 2 haywire scourge units that were just free kill points or better yet didn't need him bothering with em at all.
I don't use trueborn yet and i'll admit have scourge for that role which is probably awful (12" move and shoot is nice but if focused down they'd die). Normally the scariest enemies with vehicles are guard. I will admit it's not easy to kill all those tanks and they often stay in gun-line with a shield wall meaning a 3+ cover save with camo netting and 2+ if they get night fight (though vs dark eldar we have night vision). That alone insults me being dark eldar that their whole force can come with deployable cover giving their multiple av 14 front armor tanks a 2+ cover on turn 1 if they get night fight. So yeah heat lance scourge with archon and webway portal with some heat lance reavers would help sorta.
I imagine if you take blaster trueborn scooting a raider with em into cover (if you were facing a gun-line) would help tremendously (night shields). The 18" range should mean you can at least manage a sort of 3+ cover save frequently with em even on turn 1.
Anyway i dunno. I suppose in some cases haywire could be good but half the time enemies don't even take vehicles. I've just been burned too badly for taking haywire against some of our hardest match-ups (space wolves, tau, etc.).
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Honestly what Dark Eldar should get is the ability to switch units around the battlefield or be able to somewhat cater their forces. I make lists before hand but you're telling me the ambush faction that plots out each of their attacks before it happens won't understand what factions they will be fighting. Also we should almost always have the element of surprise so a turn 1 steal should be pretty much allowed. I mean crap even possibly an 'ambushed' scenario where the dark eldar player gets to place some of his enemy's units (D3 of certain types of units or something) to represent nobody was expecting them would be nice.
A couple S8 shots to me isnt good AT, Haywire and melta are, Lances are for me to force jinks and maybe to get a extra HP off.
The big difference is my meta is vehicle heavy, its not uncommon to see 6 rhinos/ravorbacks with 3-4 skimmers and 2 fliers in a SM armor, or a Necron player with 4 Ghost arks, a couple fliers a couple Annihilation Barge and a couple Doomsdat Arks. BA with 3 Stormravens and 2 Dreadknoughts 5 Drop pods (2 are empty just for more units on the table lol), Admech with 5 Walkers (a mix of shooting ones and melee ones), we have 3 CSM players (I mean like vanilla ones that dont use Daemons, they use the new books still) and they will take again like 7+ vehicles (some rhinos, walkers, fliers etc...) we even have one that takes the Dread Claw and Brass Scorpion, we have many players with Knights too.....
DE in my meta cant have anytype of lance as reliable AT, it just takes to much fire power. If my math is correct, it takes 36 Lances to kill 1 Knight, not counting the 6 Rhinos. 3 DL shots is only a 40% chance to kill a AV10 vehicle, Hitting a rhino at AV11 would take an average of 5 DL shots to remove 3 HP's without cover.
So this is my meta, for me I need the extra shots or HWB [(I like Haywire a LOT I take them on my CTC 2 units of Scourges and my 4 Troops I take a Sybarite with HWG (after playing Harlequins i've grown to like HWG on sargents)].
Edit: I also hate DL b.c they cost the same of a Lascannon with less range and 90% the time a Lascannon is better.... vs AV10-12 they are better, so same cost, longer range, more likely to break vehicles. DL make me salty....
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/02 12:33:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 13:05:51
Subject: Dark Eldar
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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I'd steer clear of the Dark Scythes, small blasts on a BS4 unit are going to miss more often than not and an AV10 flyer is going to need to jink on a fairly regular basis, which means you wont be able to us eany of the Voidravens weapons.
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