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As another player here said dark lances and blasters aren't for anti-tank. They are for instant death against heavily armored toughness 4 units with multiple wounds and possible FnP as well as to hurt monsters. They are secondary vehicle killers if nothing else is a good target (imperial guard is probably a good example where vehicles are the only target you might want it for).

In my meta there is a tau player that never brings vehicles and is super hard, a previous eldar player that i think took no vehicles, a necron player (not sure what he brings yet), some guard players from time to time, a chaos player that doesn't take a whole lot of vehicles and a person that plays a different faction every few months (sells the current army and gets a new one) and his last army was death watch that only came in drop pods and he had one flyer which wasn't the massive threat in his army. Far as i know at most half of them bring vehicles but it's almost never a lulz spam of vehicles.

Granted when i faced the imperial guard guy he had vehicles all over the board in a gun-line mostly but that's what guard normally does. Also against a 3+ cover save it's gonna be hard regardless of what you do. You'd probably have an easier time with reaver jetbikes that have cluster caltrops and heat lances tackling those things because in melee vehicles won't get cover. Also considering hammer of wrath auto-hits you won't have to roll to hit with that and the fact they are rending attacks with cluster caltrop attacks being str 6 as well it could be ok if you hit the right side of the tank.

Anyway i don't use haywire as i've had too many games against powerful factions that just annihilate dark eldar. If i truly need something to handle tanks i take heat lance and even then you might be better off putting it on the reavers so you can move pretty far, get out of LoS, go in cover without worry of DT and take some short range pot shots at them (provided other ranged firepower is silenced first of course).

And thats a hugely different meta than me, its funny how that works, 1 area (mine) full of vehicles everywhere and yours with very little.

If I didnt take my 20 haywire, 4 units of reavers and the 18ish Dark Weapons mixed with 1 grotesquerie IDK if I could even kill something other than some Drones/suit and SM bikes or Necron Wraiths lol.

Well as i said i have fought at least one knight and one of the guys takes one vehicle in his traitor guard list but it's a super heavy baneblade-esque tank. Haywire might be good there as you don't do vehicle damage (unless you keep rolling explodes results on the super heavy which heat lance is best at). That said in my last game vs orks it didn't matter, vs death watch it might not have mattered and against tau it only serves to hurt me (240 pts completely wasted that even a void raven would do more in and costs just as much). I mean vs guard it might be ok but even then probably not.

I am thinking of doing a grotesquerie myself btw. I think going melee heavy with reavers, incubi and grotesques with blasters and heat lance and void raven should work well. Unsure if i should even use ravagers. They usually aren't worth it no matter what i'm facing and they under-perform at their task. Perhaps if i took those out and replaced them with venom i'd be in a better situation. Well i suppose i mildly take that back. The volume of shots on dissie ravagers can potentially do damage to weak flyers but really that's nothing a void raven can't do better. Yeah perhaps dropping all ravagers is a better option.

Tournament play sees lots of Battle Companies. Eldar rarely have vehicles and Tau Empire can make good use of them but in ITC tournaments they arent copious. Necrons usually have Ghost Arks in Decurions.

But regardless of all that, high str weapons have a place in EVERY list so I'm not sure it matters whether or not the meta has tons of vehicles. Coming unprepared to face that possibility is not wise at tournaments. In casual play you can somewhat control your opponent pool but in real tournaments, be prepared.

I am taking high strength weapons (would be more blasters). I'd just probably take fewer dissie ravagers if any (they are nice in cover and slightly better armor is nicer but if they jink they shoot like crap). My issue is the shots the ravagers take may be freed up to shoot at something else and i'm not sure it'll be able to take as many hits as the ravager. Of course people often attack what's in their face first not just because of range but because if it's a ranged army and it's a melee unit it could tear them up and if it's a melee unit it's about getting into a fight so you can't be shot at or so you get something nice to kill.

As i said my issue with haywire is it's only really good half the time and the other half it is worse than useless because it takes up points and a possible force organization slot for something that could do anything more useful than nothing.

Without reading all of this wonderful discussion, I wanted to cut into the discussion about trueborn.

I use two units in venoms and I love them. My opponent always has a grotesquerie in their face so they have other things to focus on. But 8 blaster shots and two venoms are not worth the set up required, but they usually do their job, and look good doing it, but they'll be phased out by reavers once I get more.

How many reavers is too many? I really like the way they look, and used two units of three to great effect in a smaller game today, very versatile and survivable.

Reavers are a hard sell in my opinion. So much better as blockers and harrassers than they are at damage dealing for the cost. They can do it but they dont do it economically enough for me to put my faith in their offense. Speed is their true value but Id say True born are more likely to get their jobs done than are the Reavers on offense.

Reavers are amazing, I always have 4 units of them, I'd say 6 units is fine too but wouldnt go to much higher.

You want to play them like an annoying fly for your opponent.

I use mine as back up AT but I try to hit key units that are weak in melee, maybe with stealth in cover sitting on points. (I take a lot of haywire so I dont need them for AT per say).

I remeber one game my opponent had scouts on 2 objectives in back corners (it was Big guns and only 3 objectives on table) so I sent 2 units on either side, took me 2 turns to get into position. The third turn I annihilated them.

Some other games I played was dbl Demi-Comb so i used them just as easy fast AT.

They are so small, cheap and effective, they can fill a couple roles if you need them too, but... they die if they are focus fire to much, so if you take 12 units of them, lol they will just be focused.

 Jancoran wrote:
Reavers are a hard sell in my opinion. So much better as blockers and harrassers than they are at damage dealing for the cost. They can do it but they dont do it economically enough for me to put my faith in their offense. Speed is their true value but Id say True born are more likely to get their jobs done than are the Reavers on offense.

I used to doubt them but they really annoy weaker melee units and the heat lances combined with cluster caltrop can even do some nice damage vs vehicles. It's a bit tricky to use em. It's best to attack enemies in cover with them (probably one of our best counters to cover). You have to move fairly close to your enemy to do this effectively and keep your cluster caltrops away from being shot at. Keep in mind a horde trying to get through cover means they tend to move super slow d6" in move and then 2d6"-2 for charge. Things like guardsmen and other gun-line armies have a hard time hurting reavers even when they charge and often they don't understand our bikes fall like chumps when charged. I'd say put your reavers 12" away from the enemy or a bit more so you can have a healthy charge next turn. You don't know how infuriating it is when clusters fail the charge. It's only worse when they roll low on the cluster caltrops d6 results. Anyway best way i've heard to run them is in a unit of 6 but spammed small units are supposedly good too. I only have 2 units of 6 (for a total of 12) reavers. They can do their job but in some cases i wonder if it wouldn't be better to have both on the same side of the board in case i need more hammer of wrath dealing with a tougher unit. It really depends on what you are facing.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Reavers are a hard sell in my opinion. So much better as blockers and harrassers than they are at damage dealing for the cost. They can do it but they dont do it economically enough for me to put my faith in their offense. Speed is their true value but Id say True born are more likely to get their jobs done than are the Reavers on offense.

I used to doubt them but they really annoy weaker melee units and the heat lances combined with cluster caltrop can even do some nice damage vs vehicles. It's a bit tricky to use em. It's best to attack enemies in cover with them (probably one of our best counters to cover). You have to move fairly close to your enemy to do this effectively and keep your cluster caltrops away from being shot at. Keep in mind a horde trying to get through cover means they tend to move super slow d6" in move and then 2d6"-2 for charge. Things like guardsmen and other gun-line armies have a hard time hurting reavers even when they charge and often they don't understand our bikes fall like chumps when charged. I'd say put your reavers 12" away from the enemy or a bit more so you can have a healthy charge next turn. You don't know how infuriating it is when clusters fail the charge. It's only worse when they roll low on the cluster caltrops d6 results. Anyway best way i've heard to run them is in a unit of 6 but spammed small units are supposedly good too. I only have 2 units of 6 (for a total of 12) reavers. They can do their job but in some cases i wonder if it wouldn't be better to have both on the same side of the board in case i need more hammer of wrath dealing with a tougher unit. It really depends on what you are facing.

I normally take 2 units of 3 and keep 6 on each side of the board running in pairs close to each other. I love them for Anti cover and back up AT light vehicles, mostly skimmers in the back.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Reavers are a hard sell in my opinion. So much better as blockers and harrassers than they are at damage dealing for the cost. They can do it but they dont do it economically enough for me to put my faith in their offense. Speed is their true value but Id say True born are more likely to get their jobs done than are the Reavers on offense.

I used to doubt them but they really annoy weaker melee units and the heat lances combined with cluster caltrop can even do some nice damage vs vehicles. It's a bit tricky to use em. It's best to attack enemies in cover with them (probably one of our best counters to cover). You have to move fairly close to your enemy to do this effectively and keep your cluster caltrops away from being shot at. Keep in mind a horde trying to get through cover means they tend to move super slow d6" in move and then 2d6"-2 for charge. Things like guardsmen and other gun-line armies have a hard time hurting reavers even when they charge and often they don't understand our bikes fall like chumps when charged. I'd say put your reavers 12" away from the enemy or a bit more so you can have a healthy charge next turn. You don't know how infuriating it is when clusters fail the charge. It's only worse when they roll low on the cluster caltrops d6 results. Anyway best way i've heard to run them is in a unit of 6 but spammed small units are supposedly good too. I only have 2 units of 6 (for a total of 12) reavers. They can do their job but in some cases i wonder if it wouldn't be better to have both on the same side of the board in case i need more hammer of wrath dealing with a tougher unit. It really depends on what you are facing.

I own a whole bunch of them. I like their tricks (liked them better yet i nthe old codex which is why I won that many). I fount that melee was my weapon of choice though for Dark Eldar.

Played a game against a White Scars Gladius.

Whenever I play on fridays I seem to play against the competitive lists, but they are very fun to play against, and theres always a lot to learn from.

I asked the guy to play a casual game, and he pulls out a white scars gladius, he was a very kind and patient guy (I am quite a klutz and get nervous quite a bit, so I drop a lot of dice and models and the such).

He ended up winning by a single point, on Turn 7, but now I know how I could have won better next time.

Instead of hunkering down and putting all my objectives in the middle of the board and making him come to my with all the outflank, I spread out like a doofus to try and split his forces. It didn't work out.

I wasn't sure how gladius' played, I assumed they liked killing and lots of MSU shots, but it was very different, the obsec on all his units hurt a lot, especially against my RSR.

Reavers were MVPs, they could be basically wherever they needed to be at any time, and were small and insignificant enough to be ignored, but still kill a rhino or the such a turn.

My two razorwings sucked, as usual, I think I'll replace them with more venoms and reavers honestly, I just need the funds and time to invest in some newer models.

I think this goes to show how a good understanding of the meta game and the builds your opponent might bring will really enhance your game.

yup. When it comes to experience, accept no substitute.

Also, a White Scars Gladius is more or less the furthest thing from friendly he could have fielded if it was a Battle Company.

 gummyofallbears wrote:


My two razorwings sucked, as usual, I think I'll replace them with more venoms and reavers honestly, I just need the funds and time to invest in some newer models.

Not a fan of those flyers either, they can be useful only if you face some nasty flyers that must go down (or at least forced to jink) or if you face blobs of infantries as blasts are way more efficient than a lot of poisoned shots. I consider those razorwings crucial only if you face tyranids or astra militarum as both armies have many infantry models and flyers, or maybe some SM lists with a stormraven and two stormtalons. Against other armies razorwings are usually not satisfying.

The white scars gladius was not too friendly, but hey, who am I to tell him what to play? It was a fun little challenge.

The razorwings are so eh, I just cant think of too much to fill those points, maybe a few incubi

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The white scars gladius was not too friendly, but hey, who am I to tell him what to play? It was a fun little challenge.

The razorwings are so eh, I just cant think of too much to fill those points, maybe a few incubi

I use the Voidraven.

You did well so that is very much to your credit. God help a Battle Company in Kill Points. TYPICALLY not their strong suit. Gives anyone a chance against them in that mission. Objective missions present quite a bit more difficult challenge. Having to kill an extra 400 points worth of ablative armor that shoots is just unfair on a lot of levels. Not sure what they were thinking there.

My Dark Eldar only do well against them because I can multicharge the crap out of their armor and they are afraid of it so they dont tend to roll up on my like normal. Grav Cannons do jack to most of my units because of our poor armor. Jinking does wonders especially when its night fighting so always shoot for Strategic Warlord Traits. Always!

If they wanna scout to the fore, I'm game! Makes my life so much easier.

I actually like razorwing jetfighters pretty well because they give a couple lance shots for hitting armor values and 4 missiles into an infantry unit rarely leaves it standing. It's one of the few multipurpose units I'll actually field since it doesn't cost much. I don't do other upgrades like night shields or splinter cannons because I prefer to keep them cheap. If the voidraven cost a lot less I'd be more inclined to use it.

Faced necron decurion on saturday and did surprisingly well. Had to leave by the end of turn 3 but i had most of my stuff left in 2,000 pts.

He had 2 units of necrons warriors, 3 units of destroyers (5-6 models each per unit), a unit of necron jetbikes (5-6 models), a bunch of immortals (probably 8-10) and a bunch of lych guard with shields and his leader.

I had 2 venoms with butt naked 5 man warrior squads in each, 2 ravagers with dissies, a void raven (w/ void lance and shatterfield missiles), 2 reaver jetbike units (6 bikes each), 2 units of blaster scourge (4 blasters but 5 models total), 1 unit of heat lance scourge w/ webway archon (4 heat lance and 5 models), 1 unit of basic shardcarbine scourge (10 models basic weapons) and a unit of incubi in a raider.

Keep in mind my list wasn't built the best because i had no units left to add in so i added wargear mostly. About 100 pts more of wargear that would've been better in units.

Anyway he gets first turn but i roll +1 toughness for combat drugs and the warlord trait that let's me get re-rolls for reserves and night fight. I did get night fight and some of my rolls were ok.

Far as deployment goes (and this probably saved me big time) after he deployed i deployed in a corner of my deployment and then moved up quickly so that i faced 1/2 to 1/3 of his force for the most part and what he had shooting at me could only shoot the least worthwhile stuff (venoms). My ravagers were deployed in cover so they had 3+ cover due to night shields without needing to jink. I also advanced my reavers carefully and through cover. I'd have to say my shooting did next to no damage but my melee did fairly decently when both reaver jetbike units went at the same target. Even the incubi did ok.

Gonna just skip to end results. He had about 6 points to my 2. I killed his jetbike unit and his necron warrior unit. I was about to kill his 1 destroyer unit as well and his immortals were only at about 4 guys left. Sadly my 2 reaver units probably would've died hard in melee vs the lych guard unit (which i'm guessing were about to charge them). He only killed my 2 venom units and the guys inside as well as my 10 man scourge squad with shardcarbines and got first blood. He also took off one hull point from a ravager, mostly killed one blaster scourge squad, killed 2 incubi (from overwatch) and a reaver jetbike biker. Thank god he failed morale for the warrior squad or else they wouldn't have gotten run down by my reavers.

I honestly think if the full game played out i'd have lost regardless (might have even been tabled before turn 6) but i gave him a good fight. It was definitely a better fight than facing tau or space wolves (maybe my force is better and i'm getting better though). I'm guessing that's part of how to deal with certain enemies. You engage a part of the enemy force at a time and then engage another to prevent everybody getting hurt. It seems to work.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I actually like razorwing jetfighters pretty well because they give a couple lance shots for hitting armor values and 4 missiles into an infantry unit rarely leaves it standing. It's one of the few multipurpose units I'll actually field since it doesn't cost much. I don't do other upgrades like night shields or splinter cannons because I prefer to keep them cheap. If the voidraven cost a lot less I'd be more inclined to use it.

A couple Lances do crap for AT and Venoms/warriors are already all over the board for AI. The problem is that it is multi rolled. We have a bomber now, the Razorwing NEEDS to have "non-Blast" missile options and Haywire options.... so stupid its 4 AI missiles.

Oh I know it's not great anti-tank, but I usually run a pair so 4 lance shots usually means a couple dead tanks over the course of the game. I felt happy enough switching to them from the ravagers that I used to use which cost almost the same and didn't have as much durability or mobility to get where they were needed.

We have plenty of poison shots which are great for high toughness targets but aren't as great for dealing with swarms of weaker targets. When I'm facing large blobs of daemons, scarabs, or even a battle company it's the missiles that keep me in the game by causing a large number of hullpoints and wounds to units so I can finish off stragglers with poison shots.

Got in a 3000 point game yesterday so I could field a full Carnival of Pain.

In case you were looking for confirmation, no, it's not competitive. (A hell of a lot of fun, though.)

I'm still of the opinion that generally the best thing poison is for is against ogryn sized creatures and bikers. They tend not to have such ridiculous saves (maxing out at 3+ and can't get any better because jink is 3+ to 4+ usually). Against monster sized infantry blaster and other lance weapons can still do a good number on them but against bikes the jink really sinks it. Also when the enemy has artillery emplacement with toughness 7 on everybody they are highly vulnerable to poison as silly as it is. They still might get some nasty cover saves though.

I am starting to see the crappiness of scourge as fun as they were before. Problem being they often have the most heavy or special weaons for any units and it's a decent amount of firepower per squad.

I'd like to drop ravagers at some point but it might lower ranged killing power against some ranged units that absolutely would shred the rest of my force (esp. the melee units coming in).

I may get a 2nd void raven or just switch out the void lances for dark scythes which i'm almost absolutely sure is the better choice given we lack a lot of toughness 4 ap 2 instant death outside of melee. Given dark scythes are only small blast it's kinda meh but there are 2 per void raven and it's not single use unlike the bomb.

Agreed that the razorwing needs more jet fighter options. Just make each missile roll 2d6 for armor penetration or something at base strength 6-8. Most flyers don't have massive armor so even at strength 6-8 it should do a lot of damage to most.

I just think it's too bad jet packs, jump jets and jetbikes can't possibly engage flyers. Is it because flyers go higher than the other models can or is it because they haven't figured rules for it. I think being able to melee flyers with certain units would be pretty cool for some armies.

In fact you know what'd be seriously cool? You know how rockets get a flak option for certain ones? What if dark eldar had an option for haywire or shredders that combined it into a sort of net mesh (shot from a rocket) that surrounded an aircraft in the lore and basically shut down the plane's systems causing them to freefall. Either that or a haemonculus virus (shot via haemonculus weapon like a sniper rifle) that injects into the ship and turns them to the shooter's side. I mean for god's sake we get these things in the lore of enemies of dark eldar losing control of their bodies due to some virus. You can't tell me we shouldn't have something like this in-game even if it is specialty once per game one item on any character type of gear.

-------

I do very much like the going back and forth of our discussions of games and tactics. I have already learned a lot (both in game and here) and feel our constant back and forth feedback is helping a lot of us. I very much support when getting 2nd turn to deploy on one side of the map to prevent the enemy dealing with your whole force at once. In some cases this might not work (tau). However i find our speed is one of the greater weapons we have and something the enemy can't adapt to very well. In my game vs necron decurion the game may have been 2 to 6 in his favor (he also got first blood in that) but the units i lost weren't very valuable while the ones he was losing were much more valuable. Probably lost 360 pts or more in fully dead units in a 2k points game with a bit from various other units and that was after turn 3 ended for both of us.

My point being if an enemy stays on one side of the board (hard unless they're an elite shooty army) then dark eldar can just quickly get there without much issue and do so in cover. Our enemies can't re-deploy so quickly.

The problem with your suggestion of Armourbane for our missiles is that they're all blast weapons, so it doesn't matter as they can't be fired at other flyers. Personally though, I'd like to see Shatterfield Missiles changed to being just Heavy 1, Shred, Tank Hunter, One Use Only.

I still don't think Dark Scythes are worth it, I've watched Steve on Mini War Gaming use them most times he runs a Voidraven and misses more often than he hits, simply because it's BS4 on a small blast template.

Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

IMO the number 1 problem with the Razorwing is ALL THE MISSILES ARE BLASTS... like wtf?

Number one problem with the Razorwing is that its not a Voidraven. Hehehe. Sorry. couldnt resist. Well i could have but i chose not to.

I'm really curious what kinds of units you've been able to kill with the bomber to make it worthwhile. Last time I used it I only killed one space marine biker and it was almost brought down by sporadic bolter fire from nearby bikes.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm really curious what kinds of units you've been able to kill with the bomber to make it worthwhile. Last time I used it I only killed one space marine biker and it was almost brought down by sporadic bolter fire from nearby bikes.

Linking back to my post.

"Not gonna lie i too disliked the void raven merely for cost but my last game it did really well. You just have to make sure the enemy aa is silenced properly and it often depends who you face. The missiles (shatterfield) are great vs hordes and i killed a whole horde of boyz with them without needing to use anything else (probably 20+ boyz and i did like 36 hits which also all wounded due to shred and then 33 unsaved wounds which vaporized the unit) and after that i dropped a void mine on ghazghkull, a pain boy, a weird boy and 3 mega-nobz and killed all of them instantly except for ghazghkull who was wounded.

Honestly i think it depends what you face. It was probably a really great situation that sort of just happened at the right time (hordes and high armor, multi-wound t4 units with FnP). I don't think anything would be more effective against wulfen than the void raven and considering all their storm shields the shatterfield weapons are also good here. I'm more curious if i should take 2 honestly. That said i'll wait on that idea as it's an expensive model both in money and in points. I'd like to see more damage done first but i do think i'm gonna take out the void lances and run dark scythes due to lacking much good str 8 ap 2 blast (both small and large) or better in the dark eldar army."

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm really curious what kinds of units you've been able to kill with the bomber to make it worthwhile. Last time I used it I only killed one space marine biker and it was almost brought down by sporadic bolter fire from nearby bikes.

What I hear you saying is that durability is your issue with it. I would point out if that is the case that the Fighter shares this in common. if you're willing to use one, use the other.

That aside, the reason i am successful with it is because I am charging a LOT by turn two. So while the THEORY of bolters being trained on it its cool, it seems more likely that anything able to kill it is either quite busy at the moment OOOOOR is my primary target. Make sense?

The one answer to durability is making it not matter any more. The firepower of a Voidraven is immense. I take the Blasts personally to maximize damage. I like Implosion missiles also

The bomb itself as i said is very accurate and drop armies are common (Blood Angels, Ravenguard, now Chaos Marines and Space Wolves all excel at this in some form or fashion as does any Battle Company that wants to) , speedy grav bike armies are common, and the list goes on. none of these armies is particularly shy about advancing and by turn two should have some juicy units to bombinate.

Bomber gets behind the tank character which is something people kind of forget when looking at the piece of paper the list is written on. it floats right past and blows a whole bunch of unhappy people up.

I think what happens is that people try to use it in a shooting army instead of an assault army and that makes it a far easier target. a lot of armies own anti-air in some minimal fashion if not a lot and can absolutely afford the shot at no real disadvantage. Making it jink is as good as killing it and then they can move onto better targets right? So never Jink. But it is true that armies posess the ability to take it out and so you have to be able to answer that threat if you want to take one. I answered that threat and I took one. Also consider the bunching up that happens after combats. It can be very good for the Bombers chances to matter whereas if you do not go melee oriented, not so much. People are moving and contorting to avoid it and if you focus on shooting they have no reason not to. Circular deployingets and movement mitigate things quite a bit. Not entirely but a lot. Not so easy to do when the attackers are at your door step and suddenly "optimally moving" isnt a possibility anymore because the new goal is distance from the threat and resetting your lines.

The Bomber will not always be a superstar. That just depends o nthe game, as with every unit it the game. But the main takeaway is that in a melee oriented army, it works great.

That is a pretty good point.

Ignoring the tank character seems like a big deal.

For example, the RavenGuard list I am playing with includes Shrike and a bunch of assault marines, just because its cool and fluffy, but a single missile will tear that unit apart, and probably double its points doing so.

Or destroying meganobz, really anything with a 2+ armour.