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yeah 2+ armor gets absolutely shredded by the bomber. Tank characters stop working and now you have to play the "hang back and wait game if you want to avoid the bomber...which works fine by me since Im going to Aethersail the living crap outta ya!

Or so the battle plan goes. I might have it turned upside down...hmm...

could you take a voidraven escorted by two razorwings in the Death From the Skies thing that lets them take up a single fast attack slot (flyer wing?)

I don't actually own the book, but it seems like fun to spam the amazing looking Dark Eldar flyers.

On another note, what is the overall opinion on Archon courts? I think they are very cool and fun, but will rarely see play do to having quite a high entry cost. Opinions? (besides a single lahmian or Urhh Gurl in a venom)

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

IMO the number 1 problem with the Razorwing is ALL THE MISSILES ARE BLASTS... like wtf?

Blasts are the only reason to take dark eldar flyers as we already have a lot of poisoned shots and anti tank. The razorwing and the bomber are not particularly good against other flyers but still our only anti-air available. However their blasts could be invaluable if you face hordes or a lot of heavy infantry as poisoned shots can't really cripple those kind of units. Against tyranids and astra militarum dark eldar flyers can be your MVP as those armies have a lot of bodies and also flyers, especially the bugs.

 Blackie wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

IMO the number 1 problem with the Razorwing is ALL THE MISSILES ARE BLASTS... like wtf?

Blasts are the only reason to take dark eldar flyers as we already have a lot of poisoned shots and anti tank. The razorwing and the bomber are not particularly good against other flyers but still our only anti-air available. However their blasts could be invaluable if you face hordes or a lot of heavy infantry as poisoned shots can't really cripple those kind of units. Against tyranids and astra militarum dark eldar flyers can be your MVP as those armies have a lot of bodies and also flyers, especially the bugs.

The issue that I find is that all the Tyranids and Guard I see are all big boy fests, lots of tanks and MC's, very few actual blobs of infantry.

So my flyers kinda run around maybe shooting a missile or two at some zoanthropes or a tactical squad if Im lucky. They don't shine in my meta as much as I'd like because all the bunched up big units have tank characters and the such.

 gummyofallbears wrote:


On another note, what is the overall opinion on Archon courts? I think they are very cool and fun, but will rarely see play do to having quite a high entry cost. Opinions? (besides a single lahmian or Urhh Gurl in a venom)

They're not worth it because they don't have a decent fire power nor they're particularly good in close combat. Every dark eldar HQ is not great, that's why a single lhamaean is so common. I'd only take the archon with blasters, WWP and blasterborn with him in a raider, but it's a very expensive combo, other HQs that i take are a single succubus or haemonculus when i include the grotesquerie and i need a babysitter for one of the grots unit. I think the only way to field a performing dark eldar HQ is to stick it with the grotesques, even without the formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

IMO the number 1 problem with the Razorwing is ALL THE MISSILES ARE BLASTS... like wtf?

Blasts are the only reason to take dark eldar flyers as we already have a lot of poisoned shots and anti tank. The razorwing and the bomber are not particularly good against other flyers but still our only anti-air available. However their blasts could be invaluable if you face hordes or a lot of heavy infantry as poisoned shots can't really cripple those kind of units. Against tyranids and astra militarum dark eldar flyers can be your MVP as those armies have a lot of bodies and also flyers, especially the bugs.

The issue that I find is that all the Tyranids and Guard I see are all big boy fests, lots of tanks and MC's, very few actual blobs of infantry.

So my flyers kinda run around maybe shooting a missile or two at some zoanthropes or a tactical squad if Im lucky. They don't shine in my meta as much as I'd like because all the bunched up big units have tank characters and the such.

Dark eldar flyers in my opinion are not among our best units, i agree, in fact i never take them. They're situational and can find a room only against some specific armies, most of the times they not repay you.

 Jancoran wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm really curious what kinds of units you've been able to kill with the bomber to make it worthwhile. Last time I used it I only killed one space marine biker and it was almost brought down by sporadic bolter fire from nearby bikes.

What I hear you saying is that durability is your issue with it. I would point out if that is the case that the Fighter shares this in common. if you're willing to use one, use the other.

That aside, the reason i am successful with it is because I am charging a LOT by turn two. So while the THEORY of bolters being trained on it its cool, it seems more likely that anything able to kill it is either quite busy at the moment OOOOOR is my primary target. Make sense?

The one answer to durability is making it not matter any more. The firepower of a Voidraven is immense. I take the Blasts personally to maximize damage. I like Implosion missiles also

The bomb itself as i said is very accurate and drop armies are common (Blood Angels, Ravenguard, now Chaos Marines and Space Wolves all excel at this in some form or fashion as does any Battle Company that wants to) , speedy grav bike armies are common, and the list goes on. none of these armies is particularly shy about advancing and by turn two should have some juicy units to bombinate.

Bomber gets behind the tank character which is something people kind of forget when looking at the piece of paper the list is written on. it floats right past and blows a whole bunch of unhappy people up.

I think what happens is that people try to use it in a shooting army instead of an assault army and that makes it a far easier target. a lot of armies own anti-air in some minimal fashion if not a lot and can absolutely afford the shot at no real disadvantage. Making it jink is as good as killing it and then they can move onto better targets right? So never Jink. But it is true that armies posess the ability to take it out and so you have to be able to answer that threat if you want to take one. I answered that threat and I took one. Also consider the bunching up that happens after combats. It can be very good for the Bombers chances to matter whereas if you do not go melee oriented, not so much. People are moving and contorting to avoid it and if you focus on shooting they have no reason not to. Circular deployingets and movement mitigate things quite a bit. Not entirely but a lot. Not so easy to do when the attackers are at your door step and suddenly "optimally moving" isnt a possibility anymore because the new goal is distance from the threat and resetting your lines.

The Bomber will not always be a superstar. That just depends o nthe game, as with every unit it the game. But the main takeaway is that in a melee oriented army, it works great.

The bigger issue I had was with its output actually. It only killed a single biker when I used it which for its cost meant quite a bit of lost points.

With the fighters, I'm able to fit two into my army while I couldn't do so with the bomber so I found better durability and output from the pair of razorwings. My opponent had 5 or 6 units of bikers so they were all over the board and the twin linked shots meant he was getting more than a few hits against my single flyer without even really trying to. It was kind of just accidental in the "well, the jets in rapid fire range so I guess I'll shoot at it" sense and he almost brought it down after a couple volleys.

I do play melee heavy armies with my dark eldar about half the time and that game was me actually using a corpsethief claw, grotesquerie, and couple units of reaver jetbikes, so it wasn't that I was playing a shooty army.

I was scattering the bomb the full d6, but I don't think it would have made much difference had I not done so. I hit his iron hands biker death star but he had a 3++ or could have just jinked it anyways followed by a 3+ fnp. The tough units I want to hit typically have solid invuls/cover saves and what I would have rather had getting through it were twice as many missiles on target because the saves and fnp wouldn't have changed from one jet to the other.

Groups of Sslyth have decent output in close combat and they have Shardcarbines for decent shooting. It's just that Grotesques do the same job better in combat and Scourge are better at the shooting.

A couple of Medusae can be pretty good as well, S4 AP3 templates scare the hell out of marines.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
could you take a voidraven escorted by two razorwings in the Death From the Skies thing that lets them take up a single fast attack slot (flyer wing?)

I don't actually own the book, but it seems like fun to spam the amazing looking Dark Eldar flyers.

On another note, what is the overall opinion on Archon courts? I think they are very cool and fun, but will rarely see play do to having quite a high entry cost. Opinions? (besides a single lahmian or Urhh Gurl in a venom)

I use the following Court of the Archon all the time in my list:

1 Ur Ghul
6 Sslyth
2 Medusae
1 Lhamaean

I originally started using it because Formations werent NEARLY as big a deal as they becamse after the Codex dropped and many tournaments at the time only allowed two Detachments (later this became three and the ITC JUST reconfirmed that it will stay at three in their tournaments).

So because the Grotesuqes were an elite and I was already utilizing two elites slots for Blasterborn (at the time) yet wanted more melee in my force I looked around and realized the HQ slot could provide it if i didn't want another beastPack 9and no one wants Wych's).

What i learned then and continued to appreciate later as the Coven book came out was that the Court of the Archon shoots a LOT and assaults a LOT. It is a very good unit with a ton of firepower, fortitude and melee ability. It's got most everything you would want in a unit.

18 Poison shots and 2 Medusae will reduce most units to slag on their own but tougher units who need additional persuasion to join the ranks of the enslaved can find it in the ensuing assault the Sslyth promise to bring. STR 5 and a ton of attacks will get the job done and that's no lie. Two wounds apiece means they are taking it like a champ. Honestly, the unit hasn't left my army since that long ago list I tried to find more melee for.

The unit isn't super cheap (nor expensive) buy kind of in the middle for cost the way I have it set up but from an efficacy standpoint? Fantastic. What perhaps makes it an even bigger performed for me is that the enemy has incubi, and a Grotesquerie with a 32 wound beastPack headed their way and so its understandable if they maybe want to commit more to the Grotesqueries destructin than to that of the Court. The Grotesquerie is obviously our best baseline, and the enemy isn't wrong to feel that way. but that meansthe Court of the Archon with its lack of power weapons nor instant death weapons will get a lesser share of the attention.

In the end analysis i don't particularly care WHICH of the five melee units barrelling down on them they decide is more important. Casualties are inevitable for me. i accept that as part and parcel to the way my list functions.

@Jancoran I get the Sslyth and Medusae have pretty good offensive ability, but even with fleet, that's a 225 point unit that's being ignored for two turns while your opponent shoots at everything else. On top of that, in the two turns it takes to get there, a Warrior/Raider gunboat can put out what, 26 twinlinked poison shots with a 3+ jink? I can see 150 points of Sslyhth as a nice distraction Dakkafex, as that's 12 wounds to eat through, but still. Ask Tyranids how their footslogging fleet is working out for them.'

Also, why the Ur-Ghoul and Lhamean?

 Imateria wrote:
Groups of Sslyth have decent output in close combat and they have Shardcarbines for decent shooting. It's just that Grotesques do the same job better in combat and Scourge are better at the shooting.

A couple of Medusae can be pretty good as well, S4 AP3 templates scare the hell out of marines.

I'm more worried about how our flame template units work though. Liquifiers seem to suck and the eyeburst from the medusae (while decent) needs to be escorted around. It's 6" movement to be able to shoot that template again meaning if you're on foot you might not get there so easily. If you're in a transport it's prone to blow up and if you move more than 6" in that transport your guys can't shoot and the transports tend to be so vulnerable you might jink them anyway.

This kind of leads to the reason why i understood dark eldar wants to be in melee with enemies that are in cover. Incubi, grotesques and reavers all handle this issue and do it well. The incubi and reavers also work well in conjunction as i'd imagine grotesques would with them as well.

I'll admit i don't use archon courts but i'm wondering if i even should. It's nice they don't take up a force organization slot but you can only have one per HQ and it's still generally a rough take for me (even with sslyth and medusae). I'd imagine dark eldar flame template units are better in overwatch. At least the sslyth/medusae combo might make some sense then....maybe. The medusae would need to be in a unit that the enemy wants to charge though.

 Chippen wrote:
@Jancoran I get the Sslyth and Medusae have pretty good offensive ability, but even with fleet, that's a 225 point unit that's being ignored for two turns while your opponent shoots at everything else. On top of that, in the two turns it takes to get there, a Warrior/Raider gunboat can put out what, 26 twinlinked poison shots with a 3+ jink? I can see 150 points of Sslyhth as a nice distraction Dakkafex, as that's 12 wounds to eat through, but still. Ask Tyranids how their footslogging fleet is working out for them.'

Also, why the Ur-Ghoul and Lhamean?

225 is neither cheap nor expensive in my opinion. it wipes entire units off the board at one go however which i think...is worth 225? Consider the death that a Deathwatch unit causes and the associated cost. many enemy units are in the 200 point range, especially the elites. i cannot impose my sense of value on anyone but in my opinion, there is 225 points worth of value in the Court of the Archon, assuredly.

I don't understand your tactical comments. Please explain further what you mean. The enemy will effectively fire at me just once before I assault. Not twice.

On your last question: I want to cause Fear, and i want better leadership so i took the Ur-ghul and the Lhamaean. As it turns out, leadership is still a concern for the unit AND its enemies, as I have learned through many battles worth of hard fought experience!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Liquifiers seem to suck and the eyeburst from the medusae (while decent) needs to be escorted around. It's 6" movement to be able to shoot that template again meaning if you're on foot you might not get there so easily. If you're in a transport it's prone to blow up and if you move more than 6" in that transport your guys can't shoot and the transports tend to be so vulnerable you might jink them anyway.

This kind of leads to the reason why i understood dark eldar wants to be in melee with enemies that are in cover. Incubi, grotesques and reavers all handle this issue and do it well. The incubi and reavers also work well in conjunction as i'd imagine grotesques would with them as well.

I'll admit i don't use archon courts but i'm wondering if i even should. It's nice they don't take up a force organization slot but you can only have one per HQ and it's still generally a rough take for me (even with sslyth and medusae). I'd imagine dark eldar flame template units are better in overwatch. At least the sslyth/medusae combo might make some sense then....maybe. The medusae would need to be in a unit that the enemy wants to charge though.

No one would consider walking the Medusae. Perish the thought of it.

You cannot look at a piece of paper, read from its flacid surface and come away with the knowledge of HOW to use a thing. That can't really happen in a vacuum. The Medusae you centered your comment on is not going in alone in this case but with Sslyth as you say. He will be in a transport and it is HIGHLY unlikely that he will be dismounted in a situation it minds being dismounted.

Being in melee plays to Dark Eldar strength. What shooting they do commit to keeping in the army is fairly effective, but fragile. A melee bent force protects them exceedingly well, better than any shielding.

Dark Eldar are 100% capable of absolutely positively controlling target priority. Only a fool ignores the presence of 5 very serious multi-charge threats to fire over yonder. They might not LIKE the Ravagers and VoidRaven that are coming, but they cannot ignore what is right in front of their noes to deal with it. Not wisely anyways. So the net result of course is that your offensive pieces, like those, become very very productive over the course of the game, free to corral the various threats that may present themselves; or to help with the popping of cans enemy units might be inside of. Nothing is going to save those cans from being popped. So at that point, you start focusing on the immediate.

This philosophy is only as good as your commitment to it. Go half way on it and it just won't work. Forget to deploy the way I have described in other threads on this and you're sunk from turn one. Dark Eldar are not a halfway army. They are an army of extremes (in my opinion) and they are a finesse army that just does not allow for many mistakes or miscalculations. You have to get it right. When you do, it's a party!

 Jancoran wrote:

225 is neither cheap nor expensive in my opinion. it wipes entire units off the board at one go however which i think...is worth 225? Consider the death that a Deathwatch unit causes and the associated cost. many enemy units are in the 200 point range, especially the elites. i cannot impose my sense of value on anyone but in my opinion, there is 225 points worth of value in the Court of the Archon, assuredly.

I don't understand your tactical comments. Please explain further what you mean. The enemy will effectively fire at me just once before I assault. Not twice.

On your last question: I want to cause Fear, and i want better leadership so i took the Ur-ghul and the Lhamaean. As it turns out, leadership is still a concern for the unit AND its enemies, as I have learned through many battles worth of hard fought experience!

In an 1850 pt game, 225 points is 12% ish. That's a lot for a unit that won't assault until turn 3 at best. That gives the enemy 2 rounds of shooting (3 if you don't go first) plus Overwatch if you charge, which you obviously will(try), otherwise there's no point in talking about Sslyth in the first place as we know that for shooting there are objectively better options. Dark Eldar simply are not an army that can wait until turn 3 to be useful.

Your 225 of Court is not the same as a Deathwatch unit. You don't have all the survivability, nor do you have the power they do. It's not the same at all.

In the age of ATSKNF and Fearless units being everywhere (especially in assaulty units), I don't see the Fear being worth it, but this is a minor point. If you want the better Leadership value, you may as well stick the court with an Archon or Haemy with WWP and go full deathstar and deep strike into the back, and be useful much earlier.

My tactical points comments were:
A Warrior/Raider Gunboat (which is 10 warriors, one with a splinter cannon, in a Raider with Nightshields and Splinter Racks) puts out way more shooting from your first turn, so is instantly more effective than your Fleet footslogging Court. Plus that Raider with the warriors can jink every time it's shot at due to the FAQ freeing us from snapshots on a 3+ jink transport.
I was saying, however, that a few Sslyth can be a decent Distraction Carnifex (I said Dakkafex because their shooting is decent ish) with a bunch of wounds for 150 pts.
And if you think footslogging assault can work, even with target overload, why don't you see successful Tyranid footslogging lists?

I would get the value of a Court with an Archon or Haemy with Agonizer and Webway Portal, because then you're actually effective without running across the board, but the way you described it? Any decent opponent will ignore it for 2-3 turns while moving away from it.

And please, don't try to argue that assault is the Dark Eldar strength. Our units are fragile as hell, and while some have good hitting power, if hey don't knock out 3/4 of whatever they're fighting on the charge, they'll get put down pretty easily. The only armies we can reliably fight and survive with most of our units are Tau and IG, which will be blasting the gak out of us before we get to assault range anyway, and THEN will Overwatch the living bejeesus out of us.

 Blackie wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

IMO the number 1 problem with the Razorwing is ALL THE MISSILES ARE BLASTS... like wtf?

Blasts are the only reason to take dark eldar flyers as we already have a lot of poisoned shots and anti tank. The razorwing and the bomber are not particularly good against other flyers but still our only anti-air available. However their blasts could be invaluable if you face hordes or a lot of heavy infantry as poisoned shots can't really cripple those kind of units. Against tyranids and astra militarum dark eldar flyers can be your MVP as those armies have a lot of bodies and also flyers, especially the bugs.

1) I dont need AI
2) Blast do nothing if Jink or against other fliers
3) I dont need more poison I have to much already
4) ALL nids and IG dont have units that our Fliers are even good against. WTF meta are you playing in, friendly play bad units meta?

I agree with Chippen, After play Harlequins for a bit now, fear is almost pointless........

No offense, but where do you get Turn 3 and 2/3 rounds of shooting from? Maybe if you go second but I already find that it is incredibly important to go first, so I'll always try for that.

But if you have a raider, turn two charges baby!

The dude didn't mention transports and didn't include them in his cost when he mentioned the point value, so I assumed he was footslogging them.

Enemy gets turn 1, turn 2, and turn 3 if they went first to shoot. Plus Overwatch.

Adding a Raider obviously helps, but makes it even more costly, and it's already hella expensive.

Ah yes, I assumed that they were in a raider.

Sorry that was just miscommunication on my part.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Chippen wrote:
@Jancoran I get the Sslyth and Medusae have pretty good offensive ability, but even with fleet, that's a 225 point unit that's being ignored for two turns while your opponent shoots at everything else. On top of that, in the two turns it takes to get there, a Warrior/Raider gunboat can put out what, 26 twinlinked poison shots with a 3+ jink? I can see 150 points of Sslyhth as a nice distraction Dakkafex, as that's 12 wounds to eat through, but still. Ask Tyranids how their footslogging fleet is working out for them.'

Also, why the Ur-Ghoul and Lhamean?

225 is neither cheap nor expensive in my opinion. it wipes entire units off the board at one go however which i think...is worth 225? Consider the death that a Deathwatch unit causes and the associated cost. many enemy units are in the 200 point range, especially the elites. i cannot impose my sense of value on anyone but in my opinion, there is 225 points worth of value in the Court of the Archon, assuredly.

I don't understand your tactical comments. Please explain further what you mean. The enemy will effectively fire at me just once before I assault. Not twice.

On your last question: I want to cause Fear, and i want better leadership so i took the Ur-ghul and the Lhamaean. As it turns out, leadership is still a concern for the unit AND its enemies, as I have learned through many battles worth of hard fought experience!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Liquifiers seem to suck and the eyeburst from the medusae (while decent) needs to be escorted around. It's 6" movement to be able to shoot that template again meaning if you're on foot you might not get there so easily. If you're in a transport it's prone to blow up and if you move more than 6" in that transport your guys can't shoot and the transports tend to be so vulnerable you might jink them anyway.

This kind of leads to the reason why i understood dark eldar wants to be in melee with enemies that are in cover. Incubi, grotesques and reavers all handle this issue and do it well. The incubi and reavers also work well in conjunction as i'd imagine grotesques would with them as well.

I'll admit i don't use archon courts but i'm wondering if i even should. It's nice they don't take up a force organization slot but you can only have one per HQ and it's still generally a rough take for me (even with sslyth and medusae). I'd imagine dark eldar flame template units are better in overwatch. At least the sslyth/medusae combo might make some sense then....maybe. The medusae would need to be in a unit that the enemy wants to charge though.

No one would consider walking the Medusae. Perish the thought of it.

You cannot look at a piece of paper, read from its flacid surface and come away with the knowledge of HOW to use a thing. That can't really happen in a vacuum. The Medusae you centered your comment on is not going in alone in this case but with Sslyth as you say. He will be in a transport and it is HIGHLY unlikely that he will be dismounted in a situation it minds being dismounted.

Being in melee plays to Dark Eldar strength. What shooting they do commit to keeping in the army is fairly effective, but fragile. A melee bent force protects them exceedingly well, better than any shielding.

Dark Eldar are 100% capable of absolutely positively controlling target priority. Only a fool ignores the presence of 5 very serious multi-charge threats to fire over yonder. They might not LIKE the Ravagers and VoidRaven that are coming, but they cannot ignore what is right in front of their noes to deal with it. Not wisely anyways. So the net result of course is that your offensive pieces, like those, become very very productive over the course of the game, free to corral the various threats that may present themselves; or to help with the popping of cans enemy units might be inside of. Nothing is going to save those cans from being popped. So at that point, you start focusing on the immediate.

This philosophy is only as good as your commitment to it. Go half way on it and it just won't work. Forget to deploy the way I have described in other threads on this and you're sunk from turn one. Dark Eldar are not a halfway army. They are an army of extremes (in my opinion) and they are a finesse army that just does not allow for many mistakes or miscalculations. You have to get it right. When you do, it's a party!

I already know most of the deal on melee and such.

However i'm curious about something i just now thought about (somewhat). Would medusae work in a raider even jinked if you put it in front of units an enemy was going to charge regardless? My point being you could potentially have a scary hidden unit with lots of templates killing guys during overwatch as they charge at a raider they're all inside. This could work in more than one way. Perhaps if you have a bunch of reavers closing in on an area and you don't want your reavers to be charged then you can place a raider or two of medusae to shield them from counter chargers. That way your final charge with the reavers will do work (if a unit of non-snap shooting medusae won't just burn a whole unit to death anyway).

Wow honestly that may have convinced me on medusae alone. Basically a firewall that your opponent won't want to charge to get to your reavers that your skimmers and bikes can just move over. I mean expensive or not think about a unit of like 10 medusae or so in a raider protecting against space marines assaulting some units only to get 10 unsaved wounds on their non FnP guys without armor or cover allowed all during one overwatch. It would absolutely destroy a squad of marines close combat oriented or not (stormshields and multi-wound may be a probably however).

Anyway i think i might try a unit of medusae all on their own now in a group. Could be fun.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Yeah, I would love if Shatterfield missiles were heavy one, it'd give quite a specialized edge for out flyers.

Small blast seems awesome, but you'll only at best hit 1 or 2 guys, and I'd much prefer S9 lance over S8 lance that you can't fire after jinking.

IMO the number 1 problem with the Razorwing is ALL THE MISSILES ARE BLASTS... like wtf?

Blasts are the only reason to take dark eldar flyers as we already have a lot of poisoned shots and anti tank. The razorwing and the bomber are not particularly good against other flyers but still our only anti-air available. However their blasts could be invaluable if you face hordes or a lot of heavy infantry as poisoned shots can't really cripple those kind of units. Against tyranids and astra militarum dark eldar flyers can be your MVP as those armies have a lot of bodies and also flyers, especially the bugs.

1) I dont need AI
2) Blast do nothing if Jink or against other fliers
3) I dont need more poison I have to much already
4) ALL nids and IG dont have units that our Fliers are even good against. WTF meta are you playing in, friendly play bad units meta?

I agree with Chippen, After play Harlequins for a bit now, fear is almost pointless........

Well honestly i hate dark eldar flyers and i've never bought them, considering some games that i've played i only thought those flyers could have been useful in some occasions. I stay of out tournaments because you would face the same 5 lists every event, so only friendlies and some players know that blobs can be a problem for dark eldars as poisoned shots are not enough to stop them. Blasts of course wouldn't be fired against jinking units but against infantry models. Tyranids and IG flyers can be an issue and some ravagers, trueborn, scourges won't even force them to jink, three hive tyrants means three dark eldar vehicles wrecked every turn so it may be important if you force them to jink, that's why against some lists our flyers can find a room. But i never wanted to buy those models so i basically agree with you, i don't want to include in my lists some anti-air either.

 Chippen wrote:


1 In an 1850 pt game, 225 points is 12% ish. That's a lot for a unit that won't assault until turn 3 at best.

No. it will assault turn two.


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 Chippen wrote:

Your 225 of Court is not the same as a Deathwatch unit. You don't have all the survivability, nor do you have the power they do. It's not the same at all.

I dont think I said it was the same. I compared its cost.



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 Chippen wrote:


In the age of ATSKNF and Fearless units being everywhere (especially in assaulty units), I don't see the Fear being worth it, but this is a minor point. If you want the better Leadership value, you may as well stick the court with an Archon or Haemy with WWP and go full deathstar and deep strike into the back, and be useful much earlier.
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And yet...the most feared armies are not fearless. So.

As for throwing an Archon and/or Haemonculous and leaving my arrival date up to the fates...I thought about it. I decided against it. I'd rather charge turn 2.


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 Chippen wrote:

My tactical points comments were:

I was saying, however, that a few Sslyth can be a decent Distraction Carnifex (I said Dakkafex because their shooting is decent ish) with a bunch of wounds for 150 pts.
And if you think footslogging assault can work, even with target overload, why don't you see successful Tyranid footslogging lists?
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I made clear they would not be foot slogging.


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 Chippen wrote:

Any decent opponent will ignore it for 2-3 turns while moving away from it.
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I have defeated many "decent opponents". They have all remarked on the same phenomenon: The board is not unlimited in size. They were right to point it out to me.


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 Chippen wrote:


And please, don't try to argue that assault is the Dark Eldar strength. Our units are fragile as hell, and while some have good hitting power, if hey don't knock out 3/4 of whatever they're fighting on the charge, they'll get put down pretty easily. The only armies we can reliably fight and survive with most of our units are Tau and IG, which will be blasting the gak out of us before we get to assault range anyway, and THEN will Overwatch the living bejeesus out of us.

I see. You'd rather outshoot Eldar or Tau Empire?

You mention IG. Here is a fun battle report you might like. It was done by a guy who played me. Hes the number two Deathwatch player in the ITC currently (last I checked which wasnt long ago).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMWj2vzwhpE

In any event it does illustrate the point. This used a different but equally melee oriented list.




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 gummyofallbears wrote:
No offense, but where do you get Turn 3 and 2/3 rounds of shooting from? Maybe if you go second but I already find that it is incredibly important to go first, so I'll always try for that.

But if you have a raider, turn two charges baby!

Correct. Also this battle report shows me in Hammer and anvil deployment, the worst it can be for an assault army, against the IG Chippen referred to.


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 Chippen wrote:
The dude didn't mention transports and didn't include them in his cost when he mentioned the point value, so I assumed he was footslogging them.

Enemy gets turn 1, turn 2, and turn 3 if they went first to shoot. Plus Overwatch.

Adding a Raider obviously helps, but makes it even more costly, and it's already hella expensive.

Transports aren't the unit. Why would I add them when they are not? You're telling me to add an Archon plus a WWP...and you feel this is less expensive than my solution? No. it isn't.

Jesus Christ dude you're near impossible to reply to with all your broken up quotes and points...

Yeah you never mentioned putting your Court in a Raider. That gives you assault turn 2, so I can live with that. But since you hadn't mentioned it, I had to assume you were footslogging it.

I never claimed the Archon + WWP option was cheaper, but it does add a lot more effectiveness if you're gonna shove an assaulty unit down your opponent's throat anyway.

You're missing the point of the Deathwatch point cost thing. You're arguing that it's a good thing to do simply because Deathwatch does it. I was saying that there's a big difference in effectiveness for the points between the two. Dark Eldar are not a Deathstar army (save for Dark Artisan I guess).

The whole point of this was the points vs effectiveness of your Court build. For 225 points, plus the what, 65 for a Raider(don't remember off the top of my head), that's a lot of points to accomplish something that other, cheaper things in our Codex do better.

 Chippen wrote:
Jesus Christ dude you're near impossible to reply to with all your broken up quotes and points..

Just trying to respond to all of yours so you know i heard you.


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 Chippen wrote:

Yeah you never mentioned putting your Court in a Raider. That gives you assault turn 2, so I can live with that. But since you hadn't mentioned it, I had to assume you were footslogging it.

I mentioned it twice to be fair. you probably just missed it. First i said "I would be aethersailing your face off' and then i said "perish the thought" of the Medusae being on foot. It's fine if you didnt see it.


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 Chippen wrote:


I never claimed the Archon + WWP option was cheaper, but it does add a lot more effectiveness if you're gonna shove an assaulty unit down your opponent's throat anyway.

I wanted the Turn 2 charge so the WWP isn't better, in my opinion. if I were bringing wraithguard sure.


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 Chippen wrote:



You're missing the point of the Deathwatch point cost thing. You're arguing that it's a good thing to do simply because Deathwatch does it.

But I never said that?


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 Chippen wrote:


The whole point of this was the points vs effectiveness of your Court build. For 225 points, plus the what, 65 for a Raider(don't remember off the top of my head), that's a lot of points to accomplish something that other, cheaper things in our Codex do better.

Except they don't. Two medusae are terrifying to almost anything they hit, the poison shots are unwelcome by any monster you want to shoot at, the toughness fo Sslyth cannot be underestimated and the number of attacks for the unit is quite good. So I don't know EXACTLY what you think would be a better investment than them. However, they are very good on Overwatch, they are very good in melee and they are very good in shooting. They lack nothing really. So I cannot truly appreciate what you think is better unless you tell me what you would take instead of them? The Grotesques are the only melee unit I would prefer but they don't shoot anywhere near as much and since I haven't invested in Warriors, this element is valuable.

 Jancoran wrote:
yup. When it comes to experience, accept no substitute.

Also, a White Scars Gladius is more or less the furthest thing from friendly he could have fielded if it was a Battle Company.

I disagree. It's not tabling people, at least.

Personally, I dream of facing off with DE assault lists. But if you are going for a meta choice, DE probably tear up shooty gunlines made up Tau. If they live that long.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
yup. When it comes to experience, accept no substitute.

Also, a White Scars Gladius is more or less the furthest thing from friendly he could have fielded if it was a Battle Company.

I disagree. It's not tabling people, at least.

Personally, I dream of facing off with DE assault lists. But if you are going for a meta choice, DE probably tear up shooty gunlines made up Tau. If they live that long.

Wait...it has to table people to be a not-friendly list? We disagree i suppose.

Play me and i can make that dream of yours come true though. Hehehe. Dark Eldar dukes in the air as far and wide as the eye can see, with a little shooting in their just to soften the landing pad up a bit.

Good times.

I just have lower standards than most. If I have a BA left on the table around turn 4, it's a friendly list to me.

Sorry, but you're not scaring me with DE assault while the Wraithknight is a legal model.

Martel732 wrote:
I just have lower standards than most. If I have a BA left on the table around turn 4, it's a friendly list to me.

Sorry, but you're not scaring me with DE assault while the Wraithknight is a legal model.

Shoot. and i was really hoping that you'd be scared. Oh well.

On the plus side that means you'll have more fun playing against it than something you DO consider beardy. So there's a win for you.

DE are a list where heavy flamers mean something. It would be totally novel for me.

I can understand the argument where DE need to assault to take advantage of what they do have (open topped), I just don't think they're that good at it. At least compared to TWC and Wulfen.

Maybe BA are a bad matchup for DE.

@Jancoran

Then why did you bring up the cost relative to Deathwatch units in the first place?

What units are better and cheaper than the Court build? Alright.

To set the standard, your Court costs 225 + Raider with Nightshields and Aethersails, with total coming to 300 pts. 18 shots from the Sslyth, 2 flame templates from the Medusae.

For 300 points, I can take:

10 Warriors, one with Splinter Cannon, in a Raider with Nightshields and Splinter Racks. comes to 180 total. That alone is what, up to 15 Twinlinked poison shots?

For another 120 I have a couple choices. I can do 5 Scourge with either Haywire Blasters or Heat Lances. That gives me the 15 Twinlinked poison shots from above with 3 more poison shots from the Shardcarbine, and then either 4 Haywire or Heat Lance shots.

Alternatively, I can get a 5xWarrior with one Blaster Venom crew, that means 4 more Splinter rifles are going, plus the Venom's Splinter cannon, plus the blaster that can also endanger vehicles.

Since you have a hardon for close combat, how about some Reavers? 83 points gets me 3x Reavers, one an Arena Champion, one with a Heat Lance, and one with Cluster Caltrops for D6 Hammer of Wrath. I can take two of those units, plus a unit of either Scourge or the Venom crew, and have points to spare.

On top of all that, your eggs are all in one basket - forget the rest of the list, if your opponent wants to remove 300 points from the table, all he has to do is knock down the Raider ASAP. That leaves your court stranded, and even though Sslyth have decent shooting, half the reason you love them so much is the assault capability, which they just lost. It completely loses the MSU principle, which DE rely on HEAVILY due to the fragile nature of our units. I will grant you that with smart deployment and movement, you can increase the chances of the Raider getting the units there, but it's a 300 point gamble.

I know which raider my Sicaran will aim at....

Martel732 wrote:


DE are a list where heavy flamers mean something. It would be totally novel for me.

I can understand the argument where DE need to assault to take advantage of what they do have (open topped), I just don't think they're that good at it. At least compared to TWC and Wulfen.

Maybe BA are a bad matchup for DE.

Heavy flamers are good. really good. I take four in my Retributor Squads, plus a Combi-flamer just because: absolution.

TWC are good at attacking from open topped Raiders? I assume you mean Wulfen are better at coming down in pods and getting shot up, and then assaulted, but winning the assault because TH/SS Wulfen are ridiculous; and that TWC are uber fast and on you turn two. I won't disagree that they are exceedingly good at both. I have had occasion to play Chancy Rickey a fair number of times with his Wolves (currently ranked Way up there at 46th in the ITC) and with Dark Eldar most recently. I did defeat him with the list i typically use. i used his aggression against him.

He came at me and I let him. turn two he had crossed the board pretty much entirely and was eating my unit. I then trapped him each round with Raiders, his own pods, and terrain. He stayed over there munching on Raiders or whatever i put there like a caged tiger. The Court of the Archon shot two of his Wulfen dead and then charged bottom left quadrant. They trapped them for a while (I eventually won that close combat after a couple rounds but with almost nothing left of my Court). The Incubi and the Grotesques did the same kind of thing with Venom support in the top and bottom right quadrants. I went and took the objectives with my Obsec and held on for a round. it was a good game, especially the end where i was trying to figure out the smartest order to fire in etc... That part took a while unfortunately but i got it done.

The VoidRaven bomber nuked his entire missile squad turn 2, which was sitting on his objective and about to score six points if i didnt kill it (special mission objective), terrorized anything that got free of combat. It killed the Devastators, it walloped two TWC's, it smashed three TH/SS Wulfen, which allowed me to charge them to death with Grotesques and survive... it was great. Incubi got eaten of course but they were kind of a sacrifical lamb in this scenario as was anything big enough to step in front of and block the TWC.

I kind of wish i could have shown you that game because it really was a fun one, and a much more creative use of the vehicles than i typically have the chance or even the need to execute. My solution was sort of saying 'well i cant do much about his superiority but i can cage him so he only kills a little bit at a time and cant score". Mission accomplished.










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 Chippen wrote:
@Jancoran

Then why did you bring up the cost relative to Deathwatch units in the first place?
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if you read what I said, it was to point out that it is an elite that is quite expensive geared out but also quite good. So you cannot look at a points total and say "Thats too much" if it works. And when Deathwatch show up, they DO WORK. they are devastating on the drop in my experience. They also die like most Marines in the end. So you go in understanding there is a cost to be paid but a value to their presence in the list. that was the purpose.


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 Chippen wrote:


@Jancoran

Then why did you bring up the cost relative to Deathwatch units in the first place?

What units are better and cheaper than the Court build? Alright.

To set the standard, your Court costs 225 + Raider with Nightshields and Aethersails, with total coming to 300 pts. .

No. My unit costs 225 and thats it. The transport is not "part" of the unit and i dont really acccept this inclusion into its cost. just compare the unit, if you would please.

"Heavy flamers are good. really good"

Only against lists that don't matter in the current meta. I have access to a ton of these and they don't help in the least bit.

Evidently BA have nothing good to cage up SW with like DE. I still think SW are far superior to DE at assault.