Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a 2 v 1 battle last night. 1000 points my DE + 1000 points my friends Genestealers vs 2000 point decurion and destroyer cult. Let me first say... holy pancakes Destroyers are tough customers. T5 +3 save, +4 reanimation, 2 wounds. I brought a fairly limited force. My Archon and Haemonculous wouldn't dare get too close to Genestealers so I sent the concubine in their place. I tried a different list than normal, tried to go for more anti-armor to try and take on ghost arks. 2 Razorwings armed to the teeth, ravager, scourges, 2 venom warriors with 1 blaster. The Razorwings did WORK. They were absolutely devastating the turn they arrived. Let loose a good volley of missiles wiped out a 5 man squad of destroyers, blew up a ghost ark and hobbled his tomb blades and heavy destroyers. Ravager actually did more than it's done the past 4 times I brought it. Penned the ghost ark to bring down it's void shields and did some good damage but I played it too conservatively. Scourges failed to survive to do any damage, does anybody have any advice on using them? I have yet to actually destroy a vehicle with them. I really struggle with anti-armor, maybe it's better to double up so I'm not relying on 1 or 2 things pulling all the heavy shooting. I'm worried I'll miss out on the sweet poison.

The dark lance suffers from lascannon disease in 7th ed. DE have mass poison instead of Eldar mass S6, which neuters DE vs vehicles in a lot of scenarios. I think this is why a lot of DE lists are actually assault lists.

Martel732 wrote:
The dark lance suffers from lascannon disease in 7th ed. DE have mass poison instead of Eldar mass S6, which neuters DE vs vehicles in a lot of scenarios. I think this is why a lot of DE lists are actually assault lists.

Well you have to understand in most cases we have to fight against cover. Even enemy tanks and other vehicles have cover. Against cluster caltrops they get **** all against that and it hits instantly. Remember however that hammer of wrath hits the vehicle side it assaults so be careful. Can't stress enough how valuable cluster caltrops are in this anti-vehicle scenario as they usually are. In the case of infantry if you face guard or tau be prepared for 2+ to 3+ cover saves. Phantasm nades and fear bomb suck (seriously they need to at least cause pinning tests as well) and can't be trusted vs cover save enemies (fearless, high leadership and ATSKNF make things hard) and template weapons like medusae are also not so hot (only ap 3 at best and str 4 at best and once they shoot after deepstrike moving easily is piss poor). Our flame template weapons have no torrent and no 12" fast vehicle move so that would force our flamers to being more defensive if we can force our enemies to us rather than going out and attacking them. It would work if we could force enough ranged firepower at them to come at us but we're not guard or tau and so it's pointless. They often come at our transports anyway but our biggest cover enemies are ranged armies anyway so there's no point to using the flamers.

 Gamerely wrote:

Scourges failed to survive to do any damage, does anybody have any advice on using them? I have yet to actually destroy a vehicle with them.

4 haywire blasters, they should strip 2-3 HP the turn they arrive. Usually they become a bullet magnet next turn, so they're a sort of suicide squad, but if you run a fast assault oriented list with 2-3 raiders and 15+ jetbikes and you play very aggressive, the scourges can actually survive and strip another couple of HP later. Due to their kind of weapon, which has the haywire type, they are nice against vehicles with high AV and 4+ HP, otherwise if you usually face AV10-11 transports they may not repay you as you shouldn't have problems with those kind of vehicles. Blasters and lances glance on a 4 any AV12-14 which means they are really effective only against AV10 maybe 11. That's why dark eldar shouldn't take a lot of anti tank, their weapons are not that effective.

I usually take three ravagers with lances as the only source of anti tank but in my experience disintegrator cannons are quite nice too, if you face eldar, SM or necrons you don't really need the lances (good only against ghost arks or wave serpents, while SM have too many rhinos/razorback to be effective and they can deep strike melta shots turn 1) and three ravagers with cannons are 27 S5 AP2 shots, also 45 points cheaper than the lances version.

I love disintegrator cannons. Ive lauded them many times. Unfortunately, my list needs help killing AV 12 or better rear armor. Not enough points for a Scourge unit, really. So I spent the 5/ model on lances. But in a non-melee dedicated list, scourges and the like can do enough anti armor work for you.

My scourges never seem to survive very long to pull a lot of weight. Maybe if I double up on them instead of Ravagers it'll be more point effective? I think they would have done a lot better this game but a full squad of Death Marks made deepstriking them a sure bad time. So they never even got to shoot at full strength.

 Gamerely wrote:
My scourges never seem to survive very long to pull a lot of weight. Maybe if I double up on them instead of Ravagers it'll be more point effective? I think they would have done a lot better this game but a full squad of Death Marks made deepstriking them a sure bad time. So they never even got to shoot at full strength.

They are highly effective but you have to commit to them and have three units of them. I've also learned that minimizing the unit size completely isnt as wise as using 7 or even 8 of them. In part this is because you want to them to be able to fire again but also because you will often see foes without as much armor as three Scourge units would be required to handle and when they happens, their Carbines are still quite useful. The army in generaly really does determine this so i am mostly addressing an army that has committed to shooting as its primary mode of attack. If you have a "balanced" force (whatever that means) then the Scourges may well wish to be more min/maxed but its a fine line.

My Dark Eldar are very simple to operate. they simply ram themselves into the enemy at full speed. That's it. no subtlety of any kind. Only brutality of the funnest sort. The shooting my army does is limited to the VoidRaven Bomber and the two Ravagers. Any other shooting is entirely incidental (such as a Raider that miraculously survives its initial rush and can take a pot shot, or the two venoms which carry my Obsec, who will take their shots of opportunity when not zipping to objectives that require their presence.

In my force, the Scourges simply won't fit. To truly overwhelm an enemy line, you have to bring the house, Scourges are however one of the most reliable units in any codex at their job.

It's not wise to take too many scourges. If they serve an anti tank role you may waste 240 points if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, and with shardcarbines they don't worth the points as units of kabalite warriors have more firepower, may have obj sec (I usually take the RR detachment so in my lists they don't) and they're more durable than scourges.

I'm not a real fan of them but I think a single unit of 5 with 4 haywire blasters is enough. A couple of ravagers is always handy, and these three units together are a decent anti tank. I usually take three ravagers as I like vehicles spam with also lots of venoms and raiders, but three lances are not as good as 4 haywire shots against AV.

 Blackie wrote:
It's not wise to take too many scourges. If they serve an anti tank role you may waste 240 points if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, and with shardcarbines they don't worth the points as units of kabalite warriors have more firepower, may have obj sec (I usually take the RR detachment so in my lists they don't) and they're more durable than scourges.

I'm not a real fan of them but I think a single unit of 5 with 4 haywire blasters is enough. A couple of ravagers is always handy, and these three units together are a decent anti tank. I usually take three ravagers as I like vehicles spam with also lots of venoms and raiders, but three lances are not as good as 4 haywire shots against AV.

I disagree because their mobility is excellent. You're gaining a very good mobile unit no matter its shooting. Speed is the weapon of choice for Dark Eldar. But that is also why I said to take more than the minimum.

the Haywire blaster is still STR 4 AP 4 I think, so thats not nothing. still a pretty nice weapon.

As someone who has never done more than 2 hullpoints a game with haywire scourges due to horrible dice with them (just haywire, the rest usually roll above average) I prefer heat lances, or sometimes blasters on the batmen.
They are great for melting tanks, MC's, or generally anything with low model count

Heat lance is good. Hate the name but they get the jerb done. They arent as reliable at getting damage results but they have the pubchers chance of blowing things up in one go so theres that. Dark Eldar dont like exploding vehicles as a rule...

 Jancoran wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
It's not wise to take too many scourges. If they serve an anti tank role you may waste 240 points if the opponent doesn't have vehicles, and with shardcarbines they don't worth the points as units of kabalite warriors have more firepower, may have obj sec (I usually take the RR detachment so in my lists they don't) and they're more durable than scourges.

I'm not a real fan of them but I think a single unit of 5 with 4 haywire blasters is enough. A couple of ravagers is always handy, and these three units together are a decent anti tank. I usually take three ravagers as I like vehicles spam with also lots of venoms and raiders, but three lances are not as good as 4 haywire shots against AV.

I disagree because their mobility is excellent. You're gaining a very good mobile unit no matter its shooting. Speed is the weapon of choice for Dark Eldar. But that is also why I said to take more than the minimum.

the Haywire blaster is still STR 4 AP 4 I think, so thats not nothing. still a pretty nice weapon.

Venoms are fast too. And scourges are to squishy to be taken in high numbers, a single round of shooting can wiped them out, even if they were 7-8 or two units of five. They serve the role of a suicide squad basically, they arrive and strip those 2-3 HP that you really need to get rid of. If there aren't vehicles on the table 120 points for 3 poisoned and 4 S4 AP4 shots are too many imho. A single venom with no one inside can cause more damage for half the points.

Dark eldar have too many poisoned shots and fast units to consider scourges with a different role. I never played with less than 15 bikes other than raiders and venoms, so yeah, I agree about speed and mobility, they're certainly our best friends


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
As someone who has never done more than 2 hullpoints a game with haywire scourges due to horrible dice with them (just haywire, the rest usually roll above average) I prefer heat lances, or sometimes blasters on the batmen.
They are great for melting tanks, MC's, or generally anything with low model count

Heat lances are also effective but as you roll poorly with haywire I always roll terrible when determine the deep strike scatter and it's easy to arrive outside the melta range, that's why I never take heat lances. I wouldn't give them blasters though, you already have the ravagers that are capable of a similar damage.

Scourges are a suicide unit, they're meant to come in and kill whatever it is they're targeting that turn but they'll die in your opponents next turn. I personally have a lot more luck with Heat Lances than Haywire but frankly it's a toss up between the two.

They're probably our best anti tank unit as they have a good chance of killing something in a single turn but never run anything more than min squads as thats just a waste of points.

There is nothing in the Dark Eldar force among "normal" Anti-Tank options that is more reliable. Do we at lerast agree on that? I mean given that the chance to hit is the same between one unit and another, it cannot reasonably be argued that a damage result on anything but a 1 (penetrating on a 6) is worse than the alternatives. So reliability should be at minimum what we can agree on.

In an army made of glass which a shooting force (specifically) of Dark eldar are, it is only a matter of the enemies choice as to what dies first, not ours.

Scourges, if they have executed their duties, become less of a target once the deed is done. While it might be true that someone could focus a unit of them down (perhaps, that is entirely a function of where they fired from), it is likely to take more units to do than killing a venom will. I think that's also quite fair to say, unless you inexplicably left the Scourges firing from nothing approaching cover (in which case, you get what you deserve!)

So there is a lot one can say about it but Scourges are reliable and that means something. Being fragile means nothing, because everything i nthe army in a shooty version of the army, is.

Scourges are by far the best anti tank available, there's no doubt about it but are they really reliable?

In my experience many armies play without vehicles. Eldar, necrons, tau, tyranids, gen cult, space wolves, daemons mostly but also SM lists that don't have the gladius spam. If you face one of those lists scourges are not going to take their points back and typically there aren't vehicles that are really scary for dark eldar, maybe BA with a dread spam but BA are not extremely good anyway or maybe AM.

That's why I typically don't take scourges unless I'm quite sure I'm going to face lists with AV (yes, we never play 100% tac lists), otherwise when I'm not sure about the opponent's army I prefer ravagers even if they are less effective against AV.

I kind of covered that already though. I conceded that you might well face an army without vehicles and in those cases, the poison storm from a Scourge unit is welcome. Theuir Haywire shot being STR 4 AP 4 is not a terrible shot to take either.

i also recommended the slightly larger units for that exact reason.

Theuir Haywire shot being STR 4 AP 4 is not a terrible shot to take either.

Actually, it is. I mean, it's better than nothing, but let's not act like you aren't essentially wasting those points you paid for the haywire blasters. Without vehicles to fry, they're fancy bolters.

Scourges are reliable and that means something. Being fragile means nothing, because everything i nthe army in a shooty version of the army, is.

They're reliable for a turn, but that's about it. The fact that everything else in the army is fragile is irrelevant. They'll still get shot off the board in a hurry. I like Scourges, but they're not much more than suicide units, as noted. Cover is always helpful, but I wouldn't count on a high profile unit of T3 4+ dudes to hold up very long.

No ones "pretending". Unless you count the guy pretending an ap 4 shot isnt one. Obviously no armor means less utility. Not zero efficacy.

Do you play Dark Eldar pretty frequently?

I play against DE all the time and use Covens, myself, on occasion. However, I don't really need to do either of those things to tell you that a single S4 AP4 shot from a 20+ pt model isn't exactly stellar. When did AP4 become good?

Haywire Scourges are fine, but again, let's not act like they're something they aren't. They're for dropping in and stripping some hull points off something mega-tough - probably a knight. If they do anything more than that, it's a bonus. They'll never be a durable bastion of relentless firepower, regardless of how many models are in the unit or how well you position them.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I play against DE all the time and use Covens, myself, on occasion. However, I don't really need to do either of those things to tell you that a single S4 AP4 shot from a 20+ pt model isn't exactly stellar. When did AP4 become good?

Haywire Scourges are fine, but again, let's not act like they're something they aren't. They're for dropping in and stripping some hull points off something mega-tough - probably a knight. If they do anything more than that, it's a bonus. They'll never be a durable bastion of relentless firepower, regardless of how many models are in the unit or how well you position them.

No one said any of that. You keep suggesting that someone did. They are an excellent unit in shooty cversions of Dark Edldar. Thats what was said...So...

 Jancoran wrote:


I disagree because their mobility is excellent. You're gaining a very good mobile unit no matter its shooting. Speed is the weapon of choice for Dark Eldar. But that is also why I said to take more than the minimum.

the Haywire blaster is still STR 4 AP 4 I think, so thats not nothing. still a pretty nice weapon.

Emphasis mine

Jancoran wrote:Scourges, if they have executed their duties, become less of a target once the deed is done. While it might be true that someone could focus a unit of them down (perhaps, that is entirely a function of where they fired from), it is likely to take more units to do than killing a venom will. I think that's also quite fair to say, unless you inexplicably left the Scourges firing from nothing approaching cover (in which case, you get what you deserve!)

While not quite as direct as the first part, that statement seems to indicate that you expect scourges to survive at least a turn. Correct me if I'm wrong. As I said, i wouldn't plan on that happening, and I also don't buy that they're less of a threat once they've dropped in and shot whatever their target is, unless they wipe the last vehicle on the table or something. They're still very powerful yet paper thin and will be a priority target.

Str 4 ap4 is not a bad weapon. Dont know why you think so.

As for "planning" on them getting focused down, i dont know why thats your plan. I dont know why the wreckage of the tank doesnt strike you as a natural defense once they kill it and i dont know why you think cover plus fnp (depending on the round they came in) doesnt give them a good chance to try again..

Ultimately... having used them... i can attest to what i did when playing shooty lists. I dropped them to take cover from dead tanks or just ruins. I didnt find enemies without armor focusing more on them and less on my more powerful hitters. But i have qualified my use of them as best this forum allows so maybe ill use vassal to paint a better picture.

Probably for the same reason i think s4 ap5 is a bad weapon. Because it is in a game where some armies spam cheap s 6/7.

Martel732 wrote:
Probably for the same reason i think s4 ap5 is a bad weapon. Because it is in a game where some armies spam cheap s 6/7.

By that measure you would suggest anything NOT str 6 "sucks"? Come now.

Ap 4 is good. It works on a LOT more than 5 does. Str 4 is a solid hitting shell. Its obviously better at killing armor but when it has to do otherwise its not bad. Not every unit can be str 7 rending armorbane fleshbane blah blah blah. A bolt pistol kills a lot of things even if its not the be all end all. But its not world class either. Its just "useful" in the absence of armor.

"It works on a LOT more than 5 does"

One would think that, but it's really easy to get a 5+ cover save in 7th. Not a problem for the hellhound, but this practically ruins the heavy bolter (terrible weapon), and it doesn't do this gun any favors either.

Martel732 wrote:
"It works on a LOT more than 5 does"

One would think that, but it's really easy to get a 5+ cover save in 7th. Not a problem for the hellhound, but this practically ruins the heavy bolter (terrible weapon), and it doesn't do this gun any favors either.

It could have been AP 2 for all it mattered if you want to invoke cover as an argument... So.

My poor Scourges. I think they would have done the job if it hadn't been for the Deathmarks dropping next to them as soon as they showed up and shooting the bajeezus out of them. I think like everybody has said, using them like Sternguard suicide squads is pretty smart. I honestly don't know about the use of Heat lances though. You have to get awfully close to anything to shoot at it.

S4 AP4 isn't bad of course, but 120 points for 4 of those shots and three poisoned ones are too many. With the same amount of points you may take 5 kabalites with a blaster in a venom with two cannons, which are way more deadly.

And only a few AV are really nasty to deal with, that's why I typically don't take scourges in my lists unless I'm pretty sure I'm going to face armies like orks, BA, AM or I fear the presence of an imperial knight.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"It works on a LOT more than 5 does"

One would think that, but it's really easy to get a 5+ cover save in 7th. Not a problem for the hellhound, but this practically ruins the heavy bolter (terrible weapon), and it doesn't do this gun any favors either.

It could have been AP 2 for all it mattered if you want to invoke cover as an argument... So.

Not exactly. AP2 knocks a 2+ down to a 5+ with cover. AP4 takes a 4+ down to a 5+. So basically, the cover is negating 66% of the effect of AP4, but only 40% of the effect of AP2. Plus, terminators, a rather common AP2 target (and others like Riptide) already have a 5++ invuln anyway. AP4 is a real slap in the face in 7th ed to me. My army is full of them and they suck.

Once again the 4 archon with huskblade and shadowfield build is working its magic for me. I faced traitor guard today with 3 wyverns, 4 quad guns, 2 groups of 3 laser units (twin linked las cannons with ordnance rule so 2d6 for pen), at least 2 artillery emplacements, 2 normal leman russ, 2 punisher leman russ, 2 cover avoiding vehicle artillery and various zombies and similar.

Btw i WON that game. It was objectives but i killed a swathe of his units including his warlord, 2 normal leman russ, a punisher, 2 of the 3 wyverns, one of his artillery emplacements, all the quad guns all the twin linked lascannon ordnance, his warlord, most of his zombies, his daemon prince and pretty much everything. I had some luck on my side and i played fairly well. I should've put blasters or blast pistols on my archons though but they lived till the end of the game killing at least 2 units of heavy weapons, a unit of an artillery emplacement, his warlord and were getting ready to kill something else and only one of the 4 archons in the unit died over the course of 6 full turns. I would've done more damage if i had the blast pistols too. I could've taken out his vehicle artillery as well. I was similarly destroyed though. One reaver left, archon unit left, a few warriors left and that might be it. The battle was bloody and stealing first turn helped considerably. Any first to go for dark eldar is huge and i took advantage of it and had some fairly good luck with most things as well as played well.