Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can a Cptn in a formation be upgraded to a CM? I thought there was something that prohibited him from being upgraded and the only way to get a CM is by taking a normal CAD with 2 troops and an HQ.

Is this the correct way of thinking?

It's mentioned in the draft Space Marine FAQ on the GW Facebook page (linky), page 6.

The answer is yes, you can, but that wasn't the intention of the formation/detachment.

 Quanar wrote:
It's mentioned in the draft Space Marine FAQ on the GW Facebook page (linky), page 6.

The answer is yes, you can, but that wasn't the intention of the formation/detachment.

And yet, the live rulebook FAQ states that if a Formation does not list "unit of", it is speaking of the model. Too which, a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
It's mentioned in the draft Space Marine FAQ on the GW Facebook page (linky), page 6.

The answer is yes, you can, but that wasn't the intention of the formation/detachment.

And yet, the live rulebook FAQ states that if a Formation does not list "unit of", it is speaking of the model. Too which, a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model.

Wow really? Two new GW FAQs that contradict each other?

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
It's mentioned in the draft Space Marine FAQ on the GW Facebook page (linky), page 6.

The answer is yes, you can, but that wasn't the intention of the formation/detachment.

And yet, the live rulebook FAQ states that if a Formation does not list "unit of", it is speaking of the model. Too which, a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model.

Wow really? Two new GW FAQs that contradict each other?

Yeah, and they have been contradicting themselves this entire time. Whodda thunk?

I seriously think they don't care about this version of the game very much due to the inconsistencies and contradictions this has produced. I almost wonder if it is just an expensive troll being done.

 Charistoph wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
It's mentioned in the draft Space Marine FAQ on the GW Facebook page (linky), page 6.

The answer is yes, you can, but that wasn't the intention of the formation/detachment.

And yet, the live rulebook FAQ states that if a Formation does not list "unit of", it is speaking of the model. Too which, a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model.

Wow really? Two new GW FAQs that contradict each other?

Yeah, and they have been contradicting themselves this entire time. Whodda thunk?

I seriously think they don't care about this version of the game very much due to the inconsistencies and contradictions this has produced. I almost wonder if it is just an expensive troll being done.

Until 8th comes out and this FAW junk is just to hold us over.

 Charistoph wrote:

And yet, the live rulebook FAQ states that if a Formation does not list "unit of", it is speaking of the model. Too which, a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model.

When you upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master the codex makes no mention of a change in model.



So unless the formation specifically forbids you from upgrading the Captain to a Chapter Master then there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to. Formations allow Options on Army List Entries to be purchased.

 Charistoph wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
It's mentioned in the draft Space Marine FAQ on the GW Facebook page (linky), page 6.

The answer is yes, you can, but that wasn't the intention of the formation/detachment.

And yet, the live rulebook FAQ states that if a Formation does not list "unit of", it is speaking of the model. Too which, a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model.

Wow really? Two new GW FAQs that contradict each other?

Yeah, and they have been contradicting themselves this entire time. Whodda thunk?

I seriously think they don't care about this version of the game very much due to the inconsistencies and contradictions this has produced. I almost wonder if it is just an expensive troll being done.

We will have to see when the final versions all come out if it is fixed or not.

Fragile wrote:


We will have to see when the final versions all come out if it is fixed or not.

There is no contradiction between the FAQs in question to fix.

The Formations section FAQ question and answer saus that if a formation lists "1 model", then gives an example where the model and unit name is(ever so slightly) different.

Captain is both a model and unit name with no differentiation between the 2.

That FAQ is also not an exhaustive list(and the question forces a false assumption on the author, that the formation says 1 model). It does not address the situation of completely shared unit and model names at all.

In short: unless the demicompany says "1 captain model"; then there is no coverage for this situation other than the core rules stating that formation composition is unit entries. So, yes you can upgrade the captain to a chapter master until an FAQ says otherwise(and it does fit with fluff that a chapter master might take the lead of a company or just a demi company if he had more pressing matters for the captain, or if the captain was injured)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Formations section FAQ question and answer saus that if a formation lists "1 model", then gives an example where the model and unit name is(ever so slightly) different.

Captain is both a model and unit name with no differentiation between the 2.

That FAQ is also not an exhaustive list(and the question forces a false assumption on the author, that the formation says 1 model). It does not address the situation of completely shared unit and model names at all.

In short: unless the demicompany says "1 captain model"; then there is no coverage for this situation other than the core rules stating that formation composition is unit entries. So, yes you can upgrade the captain to a chapter master until an FAQ says otherwise(and it does fit with fluff that a chapter master might take the lead of a company or just a demi company if he had more pressing matters for the captain, or if the captain was injured)

I like that injured bit you threw in there. My Cpt broke his toe getting into cover. Hes out this game... CM is in.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Formations section FAQ question and answer saus that if a formation lists "1 model", then gives an example where the model and unit name is(ever so slightly) different.

Captain is both a model and unit name with no differentiation between the 2.

That FAQ is also not an exhaustive list(and the question forces a false assumption on the author, that the formation says 1 model). It does not address the situation of completely shared unit and model names at all.

In short: unless the demicompany says "1 captain model"; then there is no coverage for this situation other than the core rules stating that formation composition is unit entries. So, yes you can upgrade the captain to a chapter master until an FAQ says otherwise(and it does fit with fluff that a chapter master might take the lead of a company or just a demi company if he had more pressing matters for the captain, or if the captain was injured)

You are making an assumption that when it doesn't state "unit of" it still means "the unit of". The answer does not provide a distinction.

And there is a differentiation between a Captain model and a Captain unit. A Captain unit can be made up of a Chapter Master model, but a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model. They have a different stat line and the CM has an additional special rule.

To say they are the same is disingenuous.

I don't see why not, Chapter master is an upgrade, you can buy with points like any other war gear. To say no you can't, is like saying, sorry, you can take any veteran sergeants in your formation, because those are upgrades and change their stat line.

If there are restrictions in a formation or detachment, outside their usual, it is listed in the restrictions section. Upgrade away.

 Tsol wrote:
I don't see why not, Chapter master is an upgrade, you can buy with points like any other war gear. To say no you can't, is like saying, sorry, you can take any veteran sergeants in your formation, because those are upgrades and change their stat line.

If there are restrictions in a formation or detachment, outside their usual, it is listed in the restrictions section. Upgrade away.

Because if a Formation specifies a model, buy upgrading it, it becomes a different model, so you are no longer taking the specified model.

The Veteran Sergeant example is irrelevant and not applicable., as the Sergeants are not in the list as Sergeants, but as part of a Squad, as identified by the listed unit name which has no model name equivalent.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Formations section FAQ question and answer saus that if a formation lists "1 model", then gives an example where the model and unit name is(ever so slightly) different.

Captain is both a model and unit name with no differentiation between the 2.

That FAQ is also not an exhaustive list(and the question forces a false assumption on the author, that the formation says 1 model). It does not address the situation of completely shared unit and model names at all.

In short: unless the demicompany says "1 captain model"; then there is no coverage for this situation other than the core rules stating that formation composition is unit entries. So, yes you can upgrade the captain to a chapter master until an FAQ says otherwise(and it does fit with fluff that a chapter master might take the lead of a company or just a demi company if he had more pressing matters for the captain, or if the captain was injured)

You are making an assumption that when it doesn't state "unit of" it still means "the unit of". The answer does not provide a distinction.

And there is a differentiation between a Captain model and a Captain unit. A Captain unit can be made up of a Chapter Master model, but a Captain model is not a Chapter Master model. They have a different stat line and the CM has an additional special rule.

To say they are the same is disingenuous.

You really need to get better at reading.

The BRB tells us to assume that the composition of a formation is the Army List Entries listed. We do not default to models if it dies not say unit of.

Yes, there is a diffetence between a Captain unit entry and Captain model. If you understood context; you would have known that I was saying there is no differentiation between model and unit listed in the demicompany.

And again: Yes the Captain and Chaptermaster MODELS are different. Both, however, are a Captain Unit.

The "Unit Name" is Captain, regardless of the upgrade.

If you don't pay to upgrade, the Model is a Captain Model. If you pay the upgrade, the Model is a Chapter Master Model, in the same way that a Sergeant Model becomes a Veteran Sergeant Model if the upgrade points are paid.

To the best of my recall, the Battle Demi-Company outlines a series of UNITs that need to be taken. ie. 3x Tactical Squads, 1x "assault unit", 1x "devastator unit", etc. Since a Chapter Master model is selected as a "Captain" unit, I'd say you're allowed to take a CM in the "Captain" slot.

The main rulebook FAQ question about model vs unit of models is dealing with whether you can take more than one model of that type when it says 1 model, as opposed to a number within your permitted range when it says unit of models. The FAQ question is not dealing with the subject of upgrading the model at all. Trying to stretch it to fit covering upgrades is taking the question and answer completely out of context.

Can the Captain upgrade to a bike? That changes the model, right?

Kommissar Kel wrote:[You really need to get better at reading.

The BRB tells us to assume that the composition of a formation is the Army List Entries listed. We do not default to models if it dies not say unit of.

Yes, there is a diffetence between a Captain unit entry and Captain model. If you understood context; you would have known that I was saying there is no differentiation between model and unit listed in the demicompany.

And again: Yes the Captain and Chaptermaster MODELS are different. Both, however, are a Captain Unit.

How do you know when a Formation is calling for a unit or model? The Battle Demi-Company says, "1 Captain", not "1 unit of Captain". By the examples presented in the question, the Formation is calling for a model, not a unit.

Don't tell me to get better at reading when you gloss over the differences noted in the question.

doctortom wrote:The main rulebook FAQ question about model vs unit of models is dealing with whether you can take more than one model of that type when it says 1 model, as opposed to a number within your permitted range when it says unit of models. The FAQ question is not dealing with the subject of upgrading the model at all. Trying to stretch it to fit covering upgrades is taking the question and answer completely out of context.

No, entirely. It is asking if such is actually asking for a model or unit. If it is the model, than a Captain cannot be upgraded in the Demi-Company.

The answer did not correct the questioner in stating that a Formation always asks for the unit.

Is it stupid? You betcha. Is it counter to how Formations are stated to be built, as KK states? Again, you betcha. But this is hardly alone.

 Charistoph wrote:

doctortom wrote:The main rulebook FAQ question about model vs unit of models is dealing with whether you can take more than one model of that type when it says 1 model, as opposed to a number within your permitted range when it says unit of models. The FAQ question is not dealing with the subject of upgrading the model at all. Trying to stretch it to fit covering upgrades is taking the question and answer completely out of context.

No, entirely. It is asking if such is actually asking for a model or unit. If it is the model, than a Captain cannot be upgraded in the Demi-Company.

The answer did not correct the questioner in stating that a Formation always asks for the unit.

Is it stupid? You betcha. Is it counter to how Formations are stated to be built, as KK states? Again, you betcha. But this is hardly alone.

Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.


The context is obviously dealing with one model as opposed to however many models the unit would allow you to take. It's not addressing upgrades there. You've taken others to task before by taking statements out of context; I'm trying to warn you that this is what you're doing here.

Thing is though that under formations you can only include the "datasheets" listed in the formation.

From Codex Space Marines, pg 114 at the top of the page in bold text. "Each Space Marines unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000."

So according to that phrase, the datasheet listed for "Captain" has an upgrade option to change his model to a Chapter Master. But there is no datasheet listed as "Chapter Master". There is no reason for people to complain about taking a Chapter Master or a Captian, they are literaly the exact same datasheet.

doctortom wrote:Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.


The context is obviously dealing with one model as opposed to however many models the unit would allow you to take. It's not addressing upgrades there. You've taken others to task before by taking statements out of context; I'm trying to warn you that this is what you're doing here.

And is a Chapter Master model a Captain model? No, it isn't.

The answer noted the distinction between model and unit.

Longshadow7 wrote:Thing is though that under formations you can only include the "datasheets" listed in the formation.

From Codex Space Marines, pg 114 at the top of the page in bold text. "Each Space Marines unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000."

So according to that phrase, the datasheet listed for "Captain" has an upgrade option to change his model to a Chapter Master. But there is no datasheet listed as "Chapter Master". There is no reason for people to complain about taking a Chapter Master or a Captian, they are literaly the exact same datasheet.

And you are missing the point. The datasheet for Tomb Spyders as one unit can be made up of up to 3 models. How is this upgrade any different than the Chapter Master upgrade which changes the model?

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are missing the point. The datasheet for Tomb Spyders as one unit can be made up of up to 3 models. How is this upgrade any different than the Chapter Master upgrade which changes the model?

So you can't give the Captain a bike? That changes the model too.

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are missing the point. The datasheet for Tomb Spyders as one unit can be made up of up to 3 models. How is this upgrade any different than the Chapter Master upgrade which changes the model?

So you can't give the Captain a bike? That changes the model too.

Yep. It changes from a captain model, to a captain model

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are missing the point. The datasheet for Tomb Spyders as one unit can be made up of up to 3 models. How is this upgrade any different than the Chapter Master upgrade which changes the model?

So you can't give the Captain a bike? That changes the model too.

Yep. It changes from a captain model, to a captain model

Incorrect. It changes from a Captain model to a Captain on a bike model.

Bike and Chapter Master are both upgrades that change the model.

To put it another way, if a Formation requires a Captain model, then you upgrade and change it to a Chapter Master, there is no longer a Captain model in the Formation.

Giving a Captain a Bike changes its Unit Type, but not its Model Name or referenced profile line. Upgrading to a Chapter Master changes its Model Name and referenced profile line as well as adding another base Special Rule.

T5 isn't a change in the profile?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
T5 isn't a change in the profile?

No, it is a modifier, not a change in profile lines, you know where one says, "Captain", the other other says, "Chapter Master". Review the datasheet legend for more information.

A 'Captain model on a bike' is a different model and type than a 'Captain model'.

The Formation only allows you to have a single model of the type listed which is "Captain" and not "Captain on bike". Bike Infantry (Character) =/= Infantry (Character). Bike model =/= Infantry model. Different types. Different physical models. Different profiles.

When you upgrade the Captain to a Chapter Master there is no mention of a change in type so the type for the Chapter Master is still 'Infantry (Character)' per the Army List Entry.

If you are going to allow model and type changes arising from upgrades then "Chapter Master" upgrade is as legal as "Captain on a bike". If you are going to disallow the Chapter Master upgrade then you must also disallow the bike upgrade. The bike upgrade involves a change to the model and to the type!

Out of curiosity Charistoph, are you arguing it because you believe that what its supposed to be, or are you interpreting the rules that way?

And if my memory serves, every formation has a restrction box, which explicity tells you what you can and cannot do. And I looked up the Angels of Death, and none of them support that claim. In fact, an example Pinions of Death formation, actually says you can take chapter masters/named characters. in the foot notes. PG. 62, as it does so to list in other formations.

So I'm glad I was right, all restrictions are listed in the restriction box. Crazy I know.

So now that I've looked it up, I think its safe to say, since it does indeed say, you can.

(looked it up and then edited)