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 Tsol wrote:
Out of curiosity Charistoph, are you arguing it because you believe that what its supposed to be, or are you interpreting the rules that way?

Kommisar Kel is accurate from the written rules aspect, that Formations list datasheets. Datasheets are for units and do not detail models without putting them in to units. This is how it is supposed to work, and I even stated so earlier.

But for the FAQ, in as much as a Canoptek Harvest cannot upgrade from 1 model to 3 models, the Captain cannot change from one model to a different model.

Remember that this is the same FAQ which states that not all friendly models can be deployed in a Transport, even though they can Embark on it on Turn 1. The written rules simply do not matter to the FAQ team any more than they do to the ITC. They are making decisions based on how they feel it should be run.

 Tsol wrote:
And if my memory serves, every formation has a restrction box, which explicity tells you what you can and cannot do. And I looked up the Angels of Death, and none of them support that claim. In fact, an example Pinions of Death formation, actually says you can take chapter masters/named characters. in the foot notes. PG. 62, as it does so to list in other formations.

So I'm glad I was right, all restrictions are listed in the restriction box. Crazy I know.

So now that I've looked it up, I think its safe to say, since it does indeed say, you can.

(looked it up and then edited)

Yes, it does have a Restriction Box as an option (nor have I stated otherwise). And if the Canoptek Harvest is supposed to only have 1 Tomb Spyder in its unit, it should be listed there. The Unique Characters do not matter. As far as the game is concerned, they are completely different units, as they have their own datasheets and army list entries.

I should point out that the Unit List of a Formation is a set of restrictions. You cannot field 2 Captains as part of a Battle Demi-Company any more than you can field only 2 Tactical Squads in a Battle Demi-Company.

Formations also have Unit Lists, not Model Lists, so as I stated earlier in this thread, "How do you know when a Formation is listing a model and not a unit?" The FAQ gave an example of this, and the Answer did not challenge this set of examples, and by not doing so is basically accepting this as an accepted determination of a set of a restriction set up by the Formation's unit list.

To repeat myself:
Is it counter to how Formations are stated to be built, as KK stated? You betcha.

Is it stupid? You betcha.

But this situation is hardly alone in this round of FAQs.

 Charistoph wrote:

doctortom wrote:Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed.


The context is obviously dealing with one model as opposed to however many models the unit would allow you to take. It's not addressing upgrades there. You've taken others to task before by taking statements out of context; I'm trying to warn you that this is what you're doing here.

And is a Chapter Master model a Captain model? No, it isn't.

The answer noted the distinction between model and unit.

It noted the distinction for taking only one as opposed to taking an entire unit of them. Trying to read any further is taking it out of context. There's been other discussions in this forum in the past where you and I have argued against col_impact for taking one sentence out of context to make an argument; you are doing the same exact thing here.

 Charistoph wrote:

Longshadow7 wrote:Thing is though that under formations you can only include the "datasheets" listed in the formation.

From Codex Space Marines, pg 114 at the top of the page in bold text. "Each Space Marines unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000."

So according to that phrase, the datasheet listed for "Captain" has an upgrade option to change his model to a Chapter Master. But there is no datasheet listed as "Chapter Master". There is no reason for people to complain about taking a Chapter Master or a Captian, they are literaly the exact same datasheet.

And you are missing the point. The datasheet for Tomb Spyders as one unit can be made up of up to 3 models. How is this upgrade any different than the Chapter Master upgrade which changes the model?

No, he isn't missing the point, you are. Whether for one model or one unit, you still refer to the datasheet for the rules for it, and the datasheet allows you to upgrade the Captain to a Chapter Master. The question is whether it refers to one model that gets its usual upgrades or one unit that gets its usual upgrades.

 doctortom wrote:
It noted the distinction for taking only one as opposed to taking an entire unit of them. Trying to read any further is taking it out of context. There's been other discussions in this forum in the past where you and I have argued against col_impact for taking one sentence out of context to make an argument; you are doing the same exact thing here.

Question: "Sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' (like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?"

Answer: "The former means a single model of the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

I am not taking it out of context. The answer states "A single model of the type listed". It is not stating as you suggest, "you only take 1 model of the unit".

Is a Chapter Master model a Captain model, yes or no? The answer is "no". By changing a Captain to a Chapter Master, one no longer has "1 Captain", one has "1 Chapter Master", meaning you are not following the Formation's list.

If they meant "you only take 1 model of the unit", then that is what it needs to state. Furthermore, as stated several times at this point, this limitations of numbers should be placed in Restrictions and the Unit list is not the place to place such distinctions.

Now, if you are trying to say that a "Chapter Master" is a type of "Captain", that could be argued as a point of interpretation, as we are looking at what "type" it is referring to. It is a type of model in the Captain unit, but is given its own name, profile and distinctive notes of differences. Those differences make me see a Chapter Master model as its own thing, and not a type of Captain model, just as I do not see an Apothecary model as a type of Veteran model.

I do see an Apothecary model a type of model in the Command Squad, though. If the answer is supposed to addressing this, it should state, "A single model of the unit's type"

 doctortom wrote:
No, he isn't missing the point, you are. Whether for one model or one unit, you still refer to the datasheet for the rules for it, and the datasheet allows you to upgrade the Captain to a Chapter Master. The question is whether it refers to one model that gets its usual upgrades or one unit that gets its usual upgrades.

That is not what the answer actually states, nor is that the actual written terms used in Formation unit lists are addressing. You take 1 type of the model listed? What does that mean in context of the written rules before this FAQ was written?

How do I know this is actually supposed to be 1 model of the type listed when it can be 1-5 models and Formation unit lists reference UNIT datasheets?

How do I know that I am to ignore the numbers upgrading the number of models, but ignore when they change names?

What makes these upgrades any different when looking at it from just the unit datasheet (which is the only thing we are looking at from the Formation unit list perspective)?