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I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts on EC icon is. 4+ FNP seems good, really good, but compared to nurgle which gets 5+ and reroll ones (which works out to very similar odds to 4+, slightly worst than a straight 4+ but only by a hair) death guard only needs to pay for the mark not the icon to get it's FNP, where as EC has to get the icon to get the full benefit.

I theory crafted some lists and that icon is so expensive it ends up being a big point sink. I prefer MSU armies, but with the icons you're getting more bang for your buck if you take fewer units but larger.

so is the icon worth it in your opinion?

IIRC, the icon in a 10 man squad makes the EC cost ~17ppm, and 15ppm if you take them in 20 man squads. So, if you want MSU, go for nurgle unless you really, REALLY splurge on CSM. (death guard also has T5/fearless/relentless base, while EC only have a chance for T5 on combat drugs)

What else are you running with it? I think if you're running MSU I'd skip it, but if you're maxing out your squads to 10-mans, then it's almost a must take, so long as the Icon bearer is in the back.

Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Icons might be worth taking in units babysitting independent characters?

Not EC, but when I include Abaddon in my lists he sometimes gets escorted by Slaanesh bikers with an icon.

Oh and don't forget the +1 combat resolution icons give in combat.

nareik wrote:
Icons might be worth taking in units babysitting independent characters?

Not EC, but when I include Abaddon in my lists he sometimes gets escorted by Slaanesh bikers with an icon.

Oh and don't forget the +1 combat resolution icons give in combat.

I was going to say that Abby could not benefit from the icon, but then I understood that I am a moron.

Oh i'm not running it with anything. I don't have an EC army, was just theorycrafting and curios.

Adding up points, the problem i see with the Kakaphony is it's so expensive you don't have many points left for anything else. even min squads it's costly, mostly because that icon. The icon just seems so good, FnP is amazing, especially at 4+ (necrons), it seems hard to pass up on any unit.

Danny slag wrote:
Oh i'm not running it with anything. I don't have an EC army, was just theorycrafting and curios.

Adding up points, the problem i see with the Kakaphony is it's so expensive you don't have many points left for anything else. even min squads it's costly, mostly because that icon. The icon just seems so good, FnP is amazing, especially at 4+ (necrons), it seems hard to pass up on any unit.

You need to remember its not cheap. What else can you get for the points? MSU EC are not meant to soak up hits. They are meant to shoot stuff. Thats MHO anyhow.

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Totally agree with death guard, they're the huge standout of the book, crazy good. That's why i'm building a DG army now. World eaters also seem amazing.


But i don't see the big deal on alpha legion. Obviously i'm missing something because everyone loves alpha legion, but to me they look meh. their USR only effect chosen/marines/cultists, and unlike nurgle or slaneesh they don't have anything that turns their marines into a great unit so it's still a mediocre unit. The denying of the warlord is funny, but it's only 1vp. and the cultist thing seems the same, funny sure, but they're not obj secured and they're still cultists so i'm not sure exactly how useful it is.

With EC though. I really want to like them. I dig the whole slaanesh thing. But the FNP only gets good with the icon. 6+ will mean you might save one or two hits in an entire army in a game. So really it feels like their biggest benefit is being able to take the kakophony and the rules that go with it. i almost feel like it'd be a waste to not utilize that 4+ FNP you can get. But like someone said, maybe that's just falling into a trap points-wise.

As we're discussing EC here...

Does Intoxicating Elixir affect the entire army or just the dude that bought it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Yes but with the proper formation and psychic support you can pump those salvo bolters to 6str and thats not counting the awesome that is doom sirens and blast masters. To my limited knowledge no other faction can boast str 6 basic shooting. But once more, my knowledge is limited, so let me know if there is another faction that can do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Totally agree with death guard, they're the huge standout of the book, crazy good. That's why i'm building a DG army now. World eaters also seem amazing.


But i don't see the big deal on alpha legion. Obviously i'm missing something because everyone loves alpha legion, but to me they look meh. their USR only effect chosen/marines/cultists, and unlike nurgle or slaneesh they don't have anything that turns their marines into a great unit so it's still a mediocre unit. The denying of the warlord is funny, but it's only 1vp. and the cultist thing seems the same, funny sure, but they're not obj secured and they're still cultists so i'm not sure exactly how useful it is.

With EC though. I really want to like them. I dig the whole slaanesh thing. But the FNP only gets good with the icon. 6+ will mean you might save one or two hits in an entire army in a game. So really it feels like their biggest benefit is being able to take the kakophony and the rules that go with it. i almost feel like it'd be a waste to not utilize that 4+ FNP you can get. But like someone said, maybe that's just falling into a trap points-wise.

Well one trick I am seeing with AL is how it interacts with cultists and the lost and the damned formation. Now I could be wrong, but how I understand things is that both the formation special rule and the AL rule stack, because they are actually two different powers. So your cultists have TWO chances to come back on a 4+. That alone is pretty gravy. If I am correct.

Table wrote:
In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover.

And how are you supposed to be doing this 'high' damage with 24" salvo weapons on non-relentless platforms? If you go for wizards to actually use those sonic weapons vs non-assaulty opponent (that wouldn't care about the weapons anywayz cause assaulty opponents are mostly invisible or 3++/2++ re-rollable deathstars), you'd better have larger squads and than depending on the magic school you're choosing, if it's biomancy, the icon's not needed and you'd eventually get 3+++ from endurance - also, wizards would like the 4+++ vs perils, but if it's earth magic, you could spend some points on an icon.

Anywayz, shooty emp children are a puzzle to me so far. They seem neat on paper but if you go full kakophonii with sonics you either end up with msu - a very niche build that only excells at fighting non-deathstar assaulty forces or not very shooty slow forces with lots of infantry that are quite rare nowadays. Or you get 1-2 magic deathstars that try to hop around and relentlessly shoot...infantry. And don't like assault or s8.

Or you could try to make them survive long enough to use their sonic weapons after they've disembarked and hope for the best. 3+ 4+++ is basically like 2+ and it should be enough for regular non-competitive games.

So, as i see it, you get an icon either in large 10+ man squads with mages that don't go for biomancy, or in large 10+ squads in rhinos in more casual games.

Or if you're doing a melee deathstar. It can be neat now and has some potential with combat drugs. This deathstars work decently well with...lots of wizards once again. But yo udo end up with playable 20 strong blobs that host a bunch of IC and don't let them die.

I am definantly seeing some potential in the Emperors Children for some powerful deathstars, particularly with obsec bikers with combat drugs an Icon and some sorcerers through the Chaos warband. Noise marines are good with the blastmasters but I could only see taking them in minimum groups. Bikers on the other hand look freaking tough to take down with a necron level FNP and toughness 5. They would also be fairly beastly in CC with that extra initiative.

Personally I'm taking a slanneshi raptor talon to a tournament soon and going to see how effective it will be with loads of melta and meltabombs. Taking weapons like meltabombs as EC garrentees their use due to hitting atleast once thanks to fueled by sensation. As for taking an icon, Im giving my warlord's unit of 6 raptors (Due to points restraints I can only take 6, Im putting most of my points into other deathstars in the list that turned out to be fluffy) and a sigil of corruption for him meaning 4+ invuln and 4+ FNP which seems good to me.

 koooaei wrote:

Table wrote:
In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover.

And how are you supposed to be doing this 'high' damage with 24" salvo weapons on non-relentless platforms? If you go for wizards to actually use those sonic weapons vs non-assaulty opponent (that wouldn't care about the weapons anywayz cause assaulty opponents are mostly invisible or 3++/2++ re-rollable deathstars), you'd better have larger squads and than depending on the magic school you're choosing, if it's biomancy, the icon's not needed and you'd eventually get 3+++ from endurance - also, wizards would like the 4+++ vs perils, but if it's earth magic, you could spend some points on an icon.

Anywayz, shooty emp children are a puzzle to me so far. They seem neat on paper but if you go full kakophonii with sonics you either end up with msu - a very niche build that only excells at fighting non-deathstar assaulty forces or not very shooty slow forces with lots of infantry that are quite rare nowadays. Or you get 1-2 magic deathstars that try to hop around and relentlessly shoot...infantry. And don't like assault or s8.

Or you could try to make them survive long enough to use their sonic weapons after they've disembarked and hope for the best. 3+ 4+++ is basically like 2+ and it should be enough for regular non-competitive games.

So, as i see it, you get an icon either in large 10+ man squads with mages that don't go for biomancy, or in large 10+ squads in rhinos in more casual games.

Or if you're doing a melee deathstar. It can be neat now and has some potential with combat drugs. This deathstars work decently well with...lots of wizards once again. But yo udo end up with playable 20 strong blobs that host a bunch of IC and don't let them die.

So im super sick today so I am going to have to keep it short. But I need to say that potential str 6 shooting that ignores cover is very very good. Salvo or no Salvo.

Reavas wrote:
I am definantly seeing some potential in the Emperors Children for some powerful deathstars, particularly with obsec bikers with combat drugs an Icon and some sorcerers through the Chaos warband. Noise marines are good with the blastmasters but I could only see taking them in minimum groups. Bikers on the other hand look freaking tough to take down with a necron level FNP and toughness 5. They would also be fairly beastly in CC with that extra initiative.

Personally I'm taking a slanneshi raptor talon to a tournament soon and going to see how effective it will be with loads of melta and meltabombs. Taking weapons like meltabombs as EC garrentees their use due to hitting atleast once thanks to fueled by sensation. As for taking an icon, Im giving my warlord's unit of 6 raptors (Due to points restraints I can only take 6, Im putting most of my points into other deathstars in the list that turned out to be fluffy) and a sigil of corruption for him meaning 4+ invuln and 4+ FNP which seems good to me.

It's worth noting that, with the recent FAQ, a big blob of dudes wielding melta-bombs isn't scary in CC anymore. You can only use one grenade per unit in any given phase per the FAQ. So 10 raptors, with bombs, only get to use one bomb.

As this isn't the tactics forum, it is worth mentioning that icons give you the opportunity to do some sweet freehand banners.

My old Chaos Marines army had a squad of noise marines that carried a banner emblazoned with the Rolling Stones icon! Feel No Paint it black.

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Yes but with the proper formation and psychic support you can pump those salvo bolters to 6str and thats not counting the awesome that is doom sirens and blast masters. To my limited knowledge no other faction can boast str 6 basic shooting. But once more, my knowledge is limited, so let me know if there is another faction that can do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Totally agree with death guard, they're the huge standout of the book, crazy good. That's why i'm building a DG army now. World eaters also seem amazing.


But i don't see the big deal on alpha legion. Obviously i'm missing something because everyone loves alpha legion, but to me they look meh. their USR only effect chosen/marines/cultists, and unlike nurgle or slaneesh they don't have anything that turns their marines into a great unit so it's still a mediocre unit. The denying of the warlord is funny, but it's only 1vp. and the cultist thing seems the same, funny sure, but they're not obj secured and they're still cultists so i'm not sure exactly how useful it is.

With EC though. I really want to like them. I dig the whole slaanesh thing. But the FNP only gets good with the icon. 6+ will mean you might save one or two hits in an entire army in a game. So really it feels like their biggest benefit is being able to take the kakophony and the rules that go with it. i almost feel like it'd be a waste to not utilize that 4+ FNP you can get. But like someone said, maybe that's just falling into a trap points-wise.

Well one trick I am seeing with AL is how it interacts with cultists and the lost and the damned formation. Now I could be wrong, but how I understand things is that both the formation special rule and the AL rule stack, because they are actually two different powers. So your cultists have TWO chances to come back on a 4+. That alone is pretty gravy. If I am correct.

You're definitely right you have limited knowledge if you haven't read the Eldar codex once.

Also simply because they aren't Relentless they won't be good. The cut from 24 to 12 is actually pretty damn big.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Yes but with the proper formation and psychic support you can pump those salvo bolters to 6str and thats not counting the awesome that is doom sirens and blast masters. To my limited knowledge no other faction can boast str 6 basic shooting. But once more, my knowledge is limited, so let me know if there is another faction that can do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny slag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:
Both DG and EC are clear winners in the Traitor Legions supplement. In the end you should not be taking EC for the FnP USR but for the high damage output with ignores cover. The FnP +4 is just icing. That being said you want to run the Kakaphony (spelling). And depending on the point allocation of the game you may very well be forced into taking 5 man squads to fill the formation requirement. I would say the Icon is not worth running in 5 man squads. The points are better spent on a blast master.

However you can mix a few 10 man squads and on that level it is 100% balls to take the icon. But remember, sticking the icon bearer in the back is not going to save it from pie plates and lucky sniper fire. I am not a fan of icons in general due to the large investment and the ease of losing that investment.

Their high rate of Ignores Cover is on Salvo Bolters and a 30 point ML.
They got better, but the winners were Death Guard and Alpha Legion, with Black Legion and World Eaters being next in line.

That said, I think we can all agree Word Bearers got the worst of it.

Totally agree with death guard, they're the huge standout of the book, crazy good. That's why i'm building a DG army now. World eaters also seem amazing.


But i don't see the big deal on alpha legion. Obviously i'm missing something because everyone loves alpha legion, but to me they look meh. their USR only effect chosen/marines/cultists, and unlike nurgle or slaneesh they don't have anything that turns their marines into a great unit so it's still a mediocre unit. The denying of the warlord is funny, but it's only 1vp. and the cultist thing seems the same, funny sure, but they're not obj secured and they're still cultists so i'm not sure exactly how useful it is.

With EC though. I really want to like them. I dig the whole slaanesh thing. But the FNP only gets good with the icon. 6+ will mean you might save one or two hits in an entire army in a game. So really it feels like their biggest benefit is being able to take the kakophony and the rules that go with it. i almost feel like it'd be a waste to not utilize that 4+ FNP you can get. But like someone said, maybe that's just falling into a trap points-wise.

Well one trick I am seeing with AL is how it interacts with cultists and the lost and the damned formation. Now I could be wrong, but how I understand things is that both the formation special rule and the AL rule stack, because they are actually two different powers. So your cultists have TWO chances to come back on a 4+. That alone is pretty gravy. If I am correct.

You're definitely right you have limited knowledge if you haven't read the Eldar codex once.

Also simply because they aren't Relentless they won't be good. The cut from 24 to 12 is actually pretty damn big.

So eldar guardians have str 6 shooting with ignores cover? I guess I better go re-read that.

No guardians, but Eldar Jetbikes do for measly 10p (and they're troops)

 Vector Strike wrote:
No guardians, but Eldar Jetbikes do for measly 10p (and they're troops)

Yes I should have stated infantry. I did not factor in scatter bikes for that reason,

 morganfreeman wrote:

Reavas wrote:
I am definantly seeing some potential in the Emperors Children for some powerful deathstars, particularly with obsec bikers with combat drugs an Icon and some sorcerers through the Chaos warband. Noise marines are good with the blastmasters but I could only see taking them in minimum groups. Bikers on the other hand look freaking tough to take down with a necron level FNP and toughness 5. They would also be fairly beastly in CC with that extra initiative.

Personally I'm taking a slanneshi raptor talon to a tournament soon and going to see how effective it will be with loads of melta and meltabombs. Taking weapons like meltabombs as EC garrentees their use due to hitting atleast once thanks to fueled by sensation. As for taking an icon, Im giving my warlord's unit of 6 raptors (Due to points restraints I can only take 6, Im putting most of my points into other deathstars in the list that turned out to be fluffy) and a sigil of corruption for him meaning 4+ invuln and 4+ FNP which seems good to me.

It's worth noting that, with the recent FAQ, a big blob of dudes wielding melta-bombs isn't scary in CC anymore. You can only use one grenade per unit in any given phase per the FAQ. So 10 raptors, with bombs, only get to use one bomb.

I only can get 1 bomb on the raptor sargent, but the point is after shooting 2 melta guns if the vehicle is on 1 HP just charge in and throw it, if it happens to be a walker and cuts down your sargent you still get a hit.