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How can SM be of any strategic or tactical importance if there are only 1 mil. of them? I get it that there were very important at the time of the Great Crusade because the Legiones or Primarchs commanded all the armed forces, which makes sense, they have much more experience and supposed to be more intelligent, after all SM are created to make war and to lead. But after the Horus Heresy SM were "punished", deprived of command, legiones disbanded in to laughable chapters. I don't say there are completely useless, if a IG army is stuck in a difficult campaign, a SM captain will come and give a good advise, even do deangeres missions, but all of that feels wrong. SM should lead all the armed forces, everything else doesn't make sense, that is one of the reasons the Horus Heresy series are so popular. What is one chapter in comparison to 1 mil. IG, nothing, and there are countless billions of IG. Nonetheless, if nothing SM are cool and so is the 40k universe.

Space Marines are meant to be the tactical strike while the Guard are generally who control and police the planets. It isn't well represented on the tabletop, but Space Marines are generally only sent after the biggest threats. They usually show up, kill whatever it was, and then leave.

KJ wrote:
How can SM be of any strategic or tactical importance if there are only 1 mil. of them? I get it that there were very important at the time of the Great Crusade because the Legiones or Primarchs commanded all the armed forces, which makes sense, they have much more experience and supposed to be more intelligent, after all SM are created to make war and to lead. But after the Horus Heresy SM were "punished", deprived of command, legiones disbanded in to laughable chapters. I don't say there are completely useless, if a IG army is stuck in a difficult campaign, a SM captain will come and give a good advise, even do deangeres missions, but all of that feels wrong. SM should lead all the armed forces, everything else doesn't make sense, that is one of the reasons the Horus Heresy series are so popular. What is one chapter in comparison to 1 mil. IG, nothing, and there are countless billions of IG. Nonetheless, if nothing SM are cool and so is the 40k universe.

The Adepta Sororitas Orders Militant is the Emperor's fiery wrath.

The Imperial Guard is the Emperor's hammer.

The Tempestus Militarum is the Emperor's finely honed fighting blade

The Adeptus Astartes is the Emperor's precision scalpel.



The SPHESS MUHREHNS are an elite rapid response, rapid deployment force for the Imperium of Man. Like all the other fighting forces in Mankind's domains, the Space Marines have a part to play and role to serve. They are really needed, especially in the End Times.

KJ wrote:
How can SM be of any strategic or tactical importance if there are only 1 mil. of them? I get it that there were very important at the time of the Great Crusade because the Legiones or Primarchs commanded all the armed forces, which makes sense, they have much more experience and supposed to be more intelligent, after all SM are created to make war and to lead. But after the Horus Heresy SM were "punished", deprived of command, legiones disbanded in to laughable chapters. I don't say there are completely useless, if a IG army is stuck in a difficult campaign, a SM captain will come and give a good advise, even do deangeres missions, but all of that feels wrong. SM should lead all the armed forces, everything else doesn't make sense, that is one of the reasons the Horus Heresy series are so popular. What is one chapter in comparison to 1 mil. IG, nothing, and there are countless billions of IG. Nonetheless, if nothing SM are cool and so is the 40k universe.

Pragmatically, they wouldn't be relevant, just their ships.
Welll...pragmatically the Imperial Guard isn't that relevant either. The Imperial Navy is what is relevant.

The Space Marines' preferred tactical doctrine is - after sailing their space-cathedral through space-hell to their destination - to drop from orbit in giant buckets before they engage their opponents at close quarters with chainsaws. That their numbers are ridiculously low is not even in the top ten of ridiculous things about them.

But then asking for 40k to maintain a believable sense of scale is pretty futile; it's not meant to be hard science fiction. Indeed arguably it isn't sci-if at all; it's satire constructed around sci-fi tropes.

Basically, in any other setting they'd be an absolutely horrific investment considering the amount of manpower needed to obtain just one active recruit. They have no strategic importance whatsoever and there's no point making them, because everything they do can be done cheaper by somebody else. Need a high-profile target eliminating? Assassinorum do it better. Need an elite strike force to turn the tide of a battle? Scions are ridiculously more cost-efficient for what you actually get.

However, their propaganda value can not be denied, and in a universe like 40k where belief has a hell of a lot of power, propaganda has a lot of strategic importance.

 Lord Fishface wrote:
The Space Marines' preferred tactical doctrine is - after sailing their space-cathedral through space-hell to their destination - to drop from orbit in giant buckets before they engage their opponents at close quarters with chainsaws. That their numbers are ridiculously low is not even in the top ten of ridiculous things about them.

But then asking for 40k to maintain a believable sense of scale is pretty futile; it's not meant to be hard science fiction. Indeed arguably it isn't sci-if at all; it's satire constructed around sci-fi tropes.

As much as GW denies it 40k is Fantasy in Space.
It's crazy and makes no sense and that's why we love it.


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 Robin5t wrote:
Basically, in any other setting they'd be an absolutely horrific investment considering the amount of manpower needed to obtain just one active recruit. They have no strategic importance whatsoever and there's no point making them, because everything they do can be done cheaper by somebody else. Need a high-profile target eliminating? Assassinorum do it better. Need an elite strike force to turn the tide of a battle? Scions are ridiculously more cost-efficient for what you actually get.

However, their propaganda value can not be denied, and in a universe like 40k where belief has a hell of a lot of power, propaganda has a lot of strategic importance.

Just like Captain America!

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:
The Space Marines' preferred tactical doctrine is - after sailing their space-cathedral through space-hell to their destination - to drop from orbit in giant buckets before they engage their opponents at close quarters with chainsaws. That their numbers are ridiculously low is not even in the top ten of ridiculous things about them.

But then asking for 40k to maintain a believable sense of scale is pretty futile; it's not meant to be hard science fiction. Indeed arguably it isn't sci-if at all; it's satire constructed around sci-fi tropes.

As much as GW denies it 40k is Fantasy in Space.
It's crazy and makes no sense and that's why we love it.

Exactly. Though it continues to surprise me how many supposed fans don't get that, and perceive the insanity of the setting to be a flaw, rather than a feature.

 Robin5t wrote:
Basically, in any other setting they'd be an absolutely horrific investment considering the amount of manpower needed to obtain just one active recruit. They have no strategic importance whatsoever and there's no point making them, because everything they do can be done cheaper by somebody else. Need a high-profile target eliminating? Assassinorum do it better. Need an elite strike force to turn the tide of a battle? Scions are ridiculously more cost-efficient for what you actually get.

However, their propaganda value can not be denied, and in a universe like 40k where belief has a hell of a lot of power, propaganda has a lot of strategic importance.

Don't forget that those individual marines and whole chapters who go renegade or turn traitor can carve out little empires for themselves, making them worse investments. The 'real' reason marines are still around is that no one has the political capital to disband them.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Just like Captain America!

Funnily enough, the first thing that came to mind when reading the thread title was Cap prancing around on stage, waving the flag and punching Hitler. That's how marines would best serve the Imperium.

As boots on the ground? Probably not.

As propaganda? As the boogymen of the galaxy to strike fear into the enemies of the Imperium? And conversely to inspire loyal citizens and soldiers to acts of incredible valour and as a symbol of the Imperium's superiority and invulnerability? Absolutely.

This is one of GW's more prominent and iconic examples of the "missing zero(es) syndrome" within the lore/setting. Namely, by-and-large it's very hard to take GW's numbers seriously in almost any situation unless you whack on another zero or two. Then things start to look more... dare I say sensible?

Is it fair to say the investment of resources into a Space Marine is comporable to that of an aircraft carrier?

 Anfauglir wrote:
As boots on the ground? Probably not.

As propaganda? As the boogymen of the galaxy to strike fear into the enemies of the Imperium? And conversely to inspire loyal citizens and soldiers to acts of incredible valour and as a symbol of the Imperium's superiority and invulnerability? Absolutely.

This is one of GW's more prominent and iconic examples of the "missing zero(es) syndrome" within the lore/setting. Namely, by-and-large it's very hard to take GW's numbers seriously in almost any situation unless you whack on another zero or two. Then things start to look more... dare I say sensible?

Alternatively one could fluff it by saying the 1,000 marines thing is itself propaganda, and that marine chapters really do remain legion sized at 1mm or more. That would explain a lot. let the conspiracies begin!

They're very good at boarding Starships and storming installations, which is a pretty helpful tool to have in the toolbox.

On the tabletop they are often facing the biggest guns available, but you can imagine what an assault squad will do to guardsmen in the tight corridors of a building. A large part of what Space Marines do is fight rebellions and insurrections on Imperial worlds, in which case they can do a good job of killing the "meat" inside an important strategic asset, while not destroying the asset in the process (say, a defense grid command center).

So I'd argue that while the IoM doesn't necessarily "need" them, they serve a very important role and mitigate the wasting of other resources.

Not at all. Too few to matter anyway.

My impression is that there's a discrepancy between the lore, and the gameplay, because gameplay has to make an effort to be somewhat balanced.

Space Marines are far more powerful in the lore than they are in the game.

 Marmatag wrote:
My impression is that there's a discrepancy between the lore, and the gameplay, because gameplay has to make an effort to be somewhat balanced.

Space Marines are far more powerful in the lore than they are in the game.

But far more rare, which more than makes up for this. Plus, if they exceed the ogre limit, they'd all be dead anyway.

Space Marines are meant to cope with the worst threats, or to deliver quick and killing blow when the Imperium can't afford a long campaign. If the terrain is way too dangerous fornormal humans, the Imperium might send some of them to hold the wolrd since those are offen abounding with raw materials. Finally, where the ImerialGuard gets stuck, they can lay a hand trhough airstriking the enemy's command posts and supply deposits whereas the IG would be given a raw deal organizing and performing such operation ith such effectiveness.

So actually, space marines are of vital importance for the Imperium since they perform their own range of missions other armed forces can't succeed in: as such, never disregard them!

PS but as IG player I say: long live the Imperial Guard, first barrier against the xenos, the deviant and the heretic

There's nothing marines can do that enough humans in power armor can't do. That's the problem. And the humans are way easier to replace.

Ok, the way I see Marine deployment they are usually the first to arrive, they hit key strategic locations (Planetary defence, Primary Command Centres, Orbital Platforms) basically ripping out any planet wide organised resistance.

This is where the Imperial Guard turn up and deploy on mass. The space marines have crippled large scale organisation, but there are still a lot of troops and local level commanders that need to be put down - this is an extended campaign that the Imperial Guard are needed for.

The Imperial Guard are not suitable for mass landings on an occupied world, In truth, other than Armoured Strikes, they are more suited to a defensive or siege war. neither of which Space Marines are geared for. Effectively they make it possible for the Imperial Guard to make planet fall and then let the Imperial Guard get involved in protracted campaign to take down each of the strongholds. Very rarely do the Space Marines come in and end a war, they make it possible for one to be waged

Read up on battleships in WWii.

The Allies and Germans both created ships that were hugely powerful but they didn't send them into battle. They remained at harbour as a display of power, it's probably a bad parallel but I see Space Marines as being that kind of display of power.
Space Marines fought in battles that spread tales of Imperial victories against stupid odds to assure the populace that the Empire wasn't in a hopeless fight.
Troops continue to fight hard when they believe the Legions Astartes will show up and turn the tide.

Actually, its a good parallel. The British and Germans didn't build the hugely expensive ships to look good or as a morale boost, but both sides believed that big ships would win the war, what they didn't take into account is that War had evolved since the last time they fought one, and as such relied on technology and tactics that had worked in the previous war, but didn't in this one.

We all know the IOM isn't quick to change and adapt.

In the fluff one squad of space marines can take down a planet!

The difference between the Imperial Guard and Space Marines is like the difference between the National Guard/Army and Seal Team 6/SAS.

You don't send Marines in to hold/take/siege a planet. You send them in to surgically remove an obstacle or complete a single strategic objective and then pour Imperial Guard into the opening. By the time the Guard show up, the Marines are off to tackle another fire somewhere else.

 Stormonu wrote:
The difference between the Imperial Guard and Space Marines is like the difference between the National Guard/Army and Seal Team 6/SAS.

You don't send Marines in to hold/take/siege a planet. You send them in to surgically remove an obstacle or complete a single strategic objective and then pour Imperial Guard into the opening. By the time the Guard show up, the Marines are off to tackle another fire somewhere else.

Of course thats not how the SPAZZ MARINSE are used in the fluff though.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
The difference between the Imperial Guard and Space Marines is like the difference between the National Guard/Army and Seal Team 6/SAS.

You don't send Marines in to hold/take/siege a planet. You send them in to surgically remove an obstacle or complete a single strategic objective and then pour Imperial Guard into the opening. By the time the Guard show up, the Marines are off to tackle another fire somewhere else.

Of course thats not how the SPAZZ MARINSE are used in the fluff though.

Sadly, no. Though they were used that way in both the video game Space Marine and the Ultramarine movie.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Space Marines (specifically the Terminators but also some Grey Knights) the only IoM troops that can survive teleportation?