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ravenerioli wrote:
So a carnifex is 120 points

A Nemesis Dreadknight is 130 with the following:

Double the initiative

WS 5 v WS 3

BS 4 v BS 3

Leadership 10 v Leadership 7

2+ save v 3+ save

Psyker rerolling 1s on deny the witch v not a psyker

Preferred enemy daemons v no preferred enemy

deep strike v no deepstrike

5+ invuln (Easy to make 4+) v no invuln

Don't even try to say that the d3 ap NOTHING hammer of wraths are even remotely useful other than taking out a rhino that was going to die anyway.

Not to mention personal homers, force weapons, epic guns that don't replace it's powerfists for upgrades

Tell me something isn't completely wrong here?

Bad comparison. You are comparing a 120 point model to a 200+ model, as no one takes the bare-bones NDK. Both are AP2 due to Smash. Yours come in squads last I checked, while the NDK is a single model unit. Yours is priced in a codex that can field hordes of cheap infantry including spawning free models, while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops. A more reasonable comparison would be a Carnifex vs a Dreadnought, or a NDK vs a Riptide.

SJ

Martel732 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Yes you can, last time I played Grey Knights a couple of Venoms took away two of it's wounds before my Incubi charged turn 4 and killed it.

You can't rely on it, which makes it useless. You can get lucky, but in general, small arms do not work vs 2+ armor MCs.

About 4 Venoms (which combined cost just a bit more than 1 DK) will cause enough wounds to statistically drop a DK in 1-2 turns. The fact that he let the DK live to turn 4 is either a bad tactical choice, or bad rolls.

Yes Venoms are much nastier against Nids since they have more MCs and most are only 3+, but you Indeed rely on THAT many poison shots to take down a DK.
A Riptide, on the other hand has 5 wounds and FNP

-

" while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops"

Not an excuse for how undercosted the DK is. T6 2+ should be very expensive, but it's extremely hard to deal with.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Meh, that has taken too long already. A GK Knight is better than a Carnifex. So what. Tyranids can have a troop choice for 15 pts that can assault flying targets and explode into a str 8 ap3 large blast. GK can't have that. Again, so what. Each army has his own unit profiles that may seem bad when you look at external balance but might as well preserve the army's internal balance. Many things can be said for the Tyranids. Raveners are the same point as Necron Wraiths yet they are about a million times worse. Dakka flyrants are about 60-80 pts undercosted for the amount of utility and value they provide. Trygons are useless, tyranids still have a blanket rule nerf for no reason in the year 2016, their new releases were mediocre at best, they have the most formations compared to any other army yet only one of them is actually viable etc etc etc. It's a 2011 army book in late 2016. It is logical that it will be bad.

Quoting the fact that there are units that are broken in each army does not justify the fact that they have poor internal and external balance.

Yes I understand that points value is partially dependent on the other units in an army, but if there's onyl a single unit that does work in each army (Flyrants, Dreadknights) it probably means that the other units need to be costed better and/or those units made more expensive.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Yes you can, last time I played Grey Knights a couple of Venoms took away two of it's wounds before my Incubi charged turn 4 and killed it.

You can't rely on it, which makes it useless. You can get lucky, but in general, small arms do not work vs 2+ armor MCs.

About 4 Venoms (which combined cost just a bit more than 1 DK) will cause enough wounds to statistically drop a DK in 1-2 turns. The fact that he let the DK live to turn 4 is either a bad tactical choice, or bad rolls.

Yes Venoms are much nastier against Nids since they have more MCs and most are only 3+, but you Indeed rely on THAT many poison shots to take down a DK.
A Riptide, on the other hand has 5 wounds and FNP

-

Actually it was because it was a small game (500pts small), I only had 3 Venoms and the other one was the other side of the table holding an objective so out of range.

Martel is just being his usual butt hurt self in regards to MC's, I can and do make regular use of DE's massed poison to strip wounds of Dreadknights and Riptides before throwing in other units that will finish them off with ease, when playing Craftworld Eldar or Harlequins, shurikan can be good at bringing them down as well.

It takes 11 bs 4 2+ poison shots to remove 1 wound from a dk. It's much worse with 4+ poison.

The carnifex is unfortunately bad compared to almost everything else at its cost. Even the Dark Eldar have a better MC for that price, the Talos.

Martel732 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Yes you can, last time I played Grey Knights a couple of Venoms took away two of it's wounds before my Incubi charged turn 4 and killed it.

You can't rely on it, which makes it useless. You can get lucky, but in general, small arms do not work vs 2+ armor MCs.

Most small arms I would agree, but each venom will, on average, make it roll 4 armor saves each, so two venoms will reliably take a wound off of a DK from across the board.

Martel if you hate 40k so much why don't you just quit and save us all from your whining

Ravenerioli - yes. The dreadknight is, i think too good.

But you can get good mileage out of a 'fex.
The key elements are (a) double-dual devourers and (b) a Tyrannocyte. Suddenly you've got a drop pod dreadnought analogue with12 twinlinked S6 shots (or 6 and a sawn-off plasma cannon to taste) that still has s9 ap2 in combat.

Most of the weaker tyranid monsters do well when considered comibg out of a spore - and the spore itself, whilst more expensive than a drop pod, isnt immobile and isnt exactly unarmed.

ravenerioli wrote:
So a carnifex is 120 points

Tell me something isn't completely wrong here?

Current carnifex incarnation is due to Robin "I don't get tyranids" Cruddace.

DK was designed by Matt Ward, the man that teared WHFB in half with a single Army Book and contributed significantly to the rate of fire and shenanigans in 5th that led to the mess we have now. The Riptide is what we have after that legacy.

"b-but in the context of the codex...". Is a meme. Units are targeted and chosen singularly. Heck, there is even unbound now. Point cost must reflect the model efficiency (resilience, deadliness, synergy). There could be adjustments but the discrepancies we have now are too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Martel if you hate 40k so much why don't you just quit and save us all from your whining

He could hate 40k but you hate math, my dear sir

Martel732 wrote:
" while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops"

Not an excuse for how undercosted the DK is. T6 2+ should be very expensive, but it's extremely hard to deal with.

Wasn't an excuse, NDKs are expensive in an army of expensive units. It's effectively a Land Raider or Stormraven. Your argument would be better if your complaint was on how underpower the Carnifex is in it's own army. I argee, at it's curent power level, Carnifex should be 80-90 point model. A 205+ point NDK hits like a 205+ model.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops"

Not an excuse for how undercosted the DK is. T6 2+ should be very expensive, but it's extremely hard to deal with.

Wasn't an excuse, NDKs are expensive in an army of expensive units. It's effectively a Land Raider or Stormraven. Your argument would be better if your complaint was on how underpower the Carnifex is in it's own army. I argee, at it's curent power level, Carnifex should be 80-90 point model. A 205+ point NDK hits like a 205+ model.

SJ

Thing is, if carnifex was 80-90 pts then Trygon should be 120-130 at best, Mawloc should be a 100-110 and then suddenly you would face tyranid lists with 25-30 monsters on a normal size game. With the option to close the troop slots with 30 pts on a CAD, it doesn't take much for the Tyranids to snowball into ridiculousness.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops"

Not an excuse for how undercosted the DK is. T6 2+ should be very expensive, but it's extremely hard to deal with.

Wasn't an excuse, NDKs are expensive in an army of expensive units. It's effectively a Land Raider or Stormraven. Your argument would be better if your complaint was on how underpower the Carnifex is in it's own army. I argee, at it's curent power level, Carnifex should be 80-90 point model. A 205+ point NDK hits like a 205+ model.

SJ

NDKs are not expensive enough compared to the field. It's way more survivable than 205 pts of nearly anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops"

Not an excuse for how undercosted the DK is. T6 2+ should be very expensive, but it's extremely hard to deal with.

Wasn't an excuse, NDKs are expensive in an army of expensive units. It's effectively a Land Raider or Stormraven. Your argument would be better if your complaint was on how underpower the Carnifex is in it's own army. I argee, at it's curent power level, Carnifex should be 80-90 point model. A 205+ point NDK hits like a 205+ model.

SJ

Thing is, if carnifex was 80-90 pts then Trygon should be 120-130 at best, Mawloc should be a 100-110 and then suddenly you would face tyranid lists with 25-30 monsters on a normal size game. With the option to close the troop slots with 30 pts on a CAD, it doesn't take much for the Tyranids to snowball into ridiculousness.

Given codex Tau and Eldar, that's not THAT ridiculous. But that IS a lot of free AP2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Martel if you hate 40k so much why don't you just quit and save us all from your whining

Mathematical analysis =/= whining.

Given codex Tau and Eldar, that's not THAT ridiculous. But that IS a lot of free AP2.

...and Tau/Eldar should never set the bar on anything, lest we devolve into the dreaded "that guys".

Martel732 wrote:
Mathematical analysis =/= whining.

AP2 Instant Death can remove a Dreadknight in a single round of CC, making it sixteen times less survivable.

1.5x Wound at AP2, 5++ save, Instant Death = 1.5(2/3) = 1/1 = 100%
24x Wounds at AP-, 2+ Save, 4x wounds w/o Instant Death = 24(1/6) = 4/4 = 100%

For comparison:

S8 missile hits versus AV14, 5++ cover, 4HP = 36(1/6)(2/3) = 4/4 = 100%

You need 36x Krak Missile hits to glance out a Land Raider, equalling about 54x BS4 shots, more than 2000pts of Typhoon Speeders. But we all know, that's not an efficient way to come at the problem. Something like Melta is necessary.

The right tools for the job are essential. It's not like Force Axes and Melta help deal with Gretchin.

The Carnifex is an awesome model, and I'd be proud to own several.

The Dreadknight looks like ****, and I wouldn't put it on the table.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Mathematical analysis =/= whining.

AP2 Instant Death can remove a Dreadknight in a single round of CC, making it sixteen times less survivable.

1.5x Wound at AP2, 5++ save, Instant Death = 1.5(2/3) = 1/1 = 100%
24x Wounds at AP-, 2+ Save, 4x wounds w/o Instant Death = 24(1/6) = 4/4 = 100%

For comparison:

S8 missile hits versus AV14, 5++ cover, 4HP = 36(1/6)(2/3) = 4/4 = 100%

You need 36x Krak Missile hits to glance out a Land Raider, equalling about 54x BS4 shots, more than 2000pts of Typhoon Speeders. But we all know, that's not an efficient way to come at the problem. Something like Melta is necessary.

The right tools for the job are essential. It's not like Force Axes and Melta help deal with Gretchin.

Instant death is too rare to even be a consideration against the DK, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Mathematical analysis =/= whining.

AP2 Instant Death can remove a Dreadknight in a single round of CC, making it sixteen times less survivable.

1.5x Wound at AP2, 5++ save, Instant Death = 1.5(2/3) = 1/1 = 100%
24x Wounds at AP-, 2+ Save, 4x wounds w/o Instant Death = 24(1/6) = 4/4 = 100%

For comparison:

S8 missile hits versus AV14, 5++ cover, 4HP = 36(1/6)(2/3) = 4/4 = 100%

You need 36x Krak Missile hits to glance out a Land Raider, equalling about 54x BS4 shots, more than 2000pts of Typhoon Speeders. But we all know, that's not an efficient way to come at the problem. Something like Melta is necessary.

The right tools for the job are essential. It's not like Force Axes and Melta help deal with Gretchin.

Instant death is too rare to even be a consideration against the DK, imo.

Easy enough for competitive Daemons to access. Nurgle DPs have Baleswords which have 6 S7 (Inferno Tetra) Poison, AP2, Instant Death attacks, so hitting DK on 3+ at I8, wounding DK on 3+ with reroll to wound, so any failed 5++ or 4++ will remove a DK.
For your Blood Angel, just take Librarian Dread, force on, with 5 attacks on the charge and the Libby Dread and DK will mutually annilhate each other.

Does this satisfy you

No, it's still far too rare and more importantly, unwieldy. The GK will massacre the libby dread before it ever gets the charge off. LIbby dreads are also overcosted junk I'd be embarrassed to put on the table. Any competent opponent can easily glance out their 3 HPs before they do any real damage.

Given how easy it is to kill a vehicle in one shot, the game needs to be FAR more hazardous for MCs.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" while the NDK is priced for a small elite army based around 33ppm Troops"

Not an excuse for how undercosted the DK is. T6 2+ should be very expensive, but it's extremely hard to deal with.

Wasn't an excuse, NDKs are expensive in an army of expensive units. It's effectively a Land Raider or Stormraven. Your argument would be better if your complaint was on how underpower the Carnifex is in it's own army. I argee, at it's curent power level, Carnifex should be 80-90 point model. A 205+ point NDK hits like a 205+ model.

SJ

Thing is, if carnifex was 80-90 pts then Trygon should be 120-130 at best, Mawloc should be a 100-110 and then suddenly you would face tyranid lists with 25-30 monsters on a normal size game. With the option to close the troop slots with 30 pts on a CAD, it doesn't take much for the Tyranids to snowball into ridiculousness.

I forget, the internet doesn't understand concepts like metaphors and logical comparisons. Remember when I posted that the Carnifex and NDK were priced versus they own armies and not each other? Yeah.

SJ

EDIT: Actually I have better things to do than get into this one.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's still far too rare and more importantly, unwieldy.

Walkers and Monsters ignore the Unwieldy rule. Still a fragile platform (baring perhaps some psychic shenanigans - I think Libby dreads had access to the Astartes power disciplines) , but they would swing at the same time provided they were in combat with each other.

Martel732 wrote:

Given how easy it is to kill a vehicle in one shot, the game needs to be FAR more hazardous for MCs.

It kinda already is. The only non-gargantuan monsters that see play competitively either have wings or a 2+ armor and/or some form of decent invulnerable save. Everything else* more or less gets mulched by the current levels of firepower in the game.

* All non-flying Tyranid MCs, all non-flying Daemon MCs, Pain Engines, Wraith Lords, Tomb Spyders, and C'tan Shards.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

With the option to close the troop slots with 30 pts on a CAD, it doesn't take much for the Tyranids to snowball into ridiculousness.

I am fairly confident that Mucolids will probably be moved to Fast Attack or Elites whenever Tyranids get their new book. Their being a Troop choice was a mistake thematically (particularly given the more numerous lesser Spore Mines are Fast) and in terms of gameplay as well.

Martel732 wrote:
Libby dreads are also overcosted junk I'd be embarrassed to put on the table. Any competent opponent can easily glance out their 3 HPs before they do any real damage.

The 10th place list at BAO ran Meph, and the 12th place ran a Lib Dread.

I'm sure they had their reasons.

I am fairly confident that Mucolids will probably be moved to Fast Attack or Elites whenever Tyranids get their new book. Their being a Troop choice was a mistake thematically (particularly given the more numerous lesser Spore Mines are Fast) and in terms of gameplay as well.

The last thing I would ever call the mines, either spore or Mucolid, would be fast. They halve all their movement characteristics, and being able to deep strike should not qualify a unit to be fast, you don't see fast terminators either. I understand what you are saying though. I am also very afraid of a second Cruddace debacle, GW codex writing is inept enough to make an even bigger mess of the Tyranids. If they even get a new codex any time soon. I will disagree though that mucolids being troops is a mistake, especially while Eldar have jetbikes in their troop slot. Eldar jetbikes even more so. The things that are cheaper than any other bikes, are faster than any other bikes and can carry heavy weapons on a 1:1 ratio. I don't even.

Getting back on Topic.... Just look at Basic Carnifex to Necrons Spider. (No upgrades you cant say a Fex is higher cost b.c it gets upgrades your paying points for those upgrades)

Both have same:
WS
BS
Int
Tough
3+
Fearless

Lets see the difference

Fex gets:
Higher Str
2 Weapons (+1 atk)
Better HoM
+1w
+1A

Spyder gets:
Higher LD
Scarab Hive

Yes the Fex is better in CC (if it gets there) but for literally LESS THAN 1/2 THE POINTS! I think it is extremely strong.

If we are going to talk about upgrades, 12 TL S6 is very strong, but I think I would rather have a Reanimate units of Wraiths.

Carnifex is a better model, so it's a win some lose some scenario. I think looking good carries yoy further in the long run

whirlwindstruggle wrote:
Carnifex is a better model, so it's a win some lose some scenario. I think looking good carries yoy further in the long run

In this case it carried all of my Carnifexes, as well as my Trygons, venom cannon/bonesword Tyrants, Swarmlord, and Raveners to a shelf in my display case, only to come down for teaching games.

My dreadknight commonly will bring down an entire unit of carnifex in one combat.

Where the Carnifex fails is that it doesn't have an Invo save. Not having any chance of making a save vs AP3 or better means they will just drop wounds too quickly.

 Sinji wrote:
Where the Carnifex fails is that it doesn't have an Invo save. Not having any chance of making a save vs AP3 or better means they will just drop wounds too quickly.

The answer to this is to tone down the shooting in all the armies, not give everybody an invul save. This will only escalate to ridiculousness.