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I'm new to 40k so apologies if I've missed something in the fluff, I've only just started reading it but I'm fascinated by the two lost legions.

Do you think that they were maybe destroyed through no fault of their own- that they didn't do something awful, per se, but maybe they had a defective gene-seed or committed some atrocity owing to miscommunication?

I think I'm right when I say they disappeared long before the heresy, so I'm guessing whatever they did might not have involved chaos? I also believe whenever characters reference them it's in more of a sad tone than anger or hatred?

Forgive me again if this is an obvious question, but do we even know the names of the legions or their primarchs...or if they were even destroyed at the same time?

Lastly, is it just the primarchs that were destroyed (e.g., after being found by the Emperor but before being given power over a legion) or was it two entire legions?

Thanks.

Very very little is know.

Primatchs refused to talk about it at times even..

Short answer I believe it something wrong, or a great shame.
The only known purege trigger was Magnus. And that was arrest.

So maybe worse Tha that.

Suspected by some fluff Is one of lost went ultra marines and absorbed.

Also loses was early great crusade. There not heresey era. Late crusade events.

It's definitely possible. When Sanguinius is talking about the Red Thirst he mentions that he's afraid to speak to the Emperor about it because he doesn't want to become the third empty plinth. That suggests that at least one of the legions had a mutation.

However, it is also possible that mutation is simply the excuse the Emperor gave to the other primarchs. The primarchs were still completely ignorant of Chaos afterwards, so it could be that one or both of them turned to Chaos and the Emperor said they had to be purged because of a mutation.

Of the theories I've heard, the two I liked the most are that one had horrible mutation and was destroyed upon discovery, the legion absorbed into Ultramarines. The other rejected the Emperor and/or was exiled, and took his legion's fleet out of this galaxy to seed humanity elsewhere, as the possibility of annihilation by chaos/tyranids/necrons was foreseen.

In reality they probably had some early ideas for them in the rogue trader days or whatever and either scrapped them because they were mind numbingly awful or it signifies some other personal thing with the original lore creators, like a creative difference. It could also be as simple as "yeah 20 was a good number but we ran out of ideas, so 2 got lost. yeah"

 jhe90 wrote:
Also loses was early great crusade. There not heresey era. Late crusade events.

Not actually true. We know that all 20 primarchs met each other at least once and that all 20 were reunited with their legions at some point. The removal of both primarchs was in the last 20 years of the Great Crusade.

 Overheal wrote:
In reality they probably had some early ideas for them in the rogue trader days or whatever and either scrapped them because they were mind numbingly awful or it signifies some other personal thing with the original lore creators, like a creative difference. It could also be as simple as "yeah 20 was a good number but we ran out of ideas, so 2 got lost. yeah"

Not too far off from the truth. The actual reason was because they had written that there were 20 legions in the lore for Epic, but when it came time to publish, they realized they only had 18 legion descriptions written up.

jareddm wrote:
Not too far off from the truth. The actual reason was because they had written that there were 20 legions in the lore for Epic, but when it came time to publish, they realized they only had 18 legion descriptions written up.

Pretty much this, though IIRC the original 1989 Epic Space Marine (titled 'Space Marine' at the time, just to confuse people talking about it decades later) named the eighteen we now know as the original legions, but didn't explicity mention their total number. I don't recall the figure of twenty actually coming up until a White Dwarf article published shortly before 40k 2nd ed, and repeated in Codex Ultramarines (before being pasted ad nauseam into ever other Space Marine codex ever) set in stone the fluff we now know of the First and Second Foundings.

Until then at least, the implication was that there were many more legions, like Andy Chambers' Valedictors (who appeared in White Dwarf, and were thus perceived as being as canonical as anything else at the time). Indeeed though Horus and Guilliman both made appearances in the Epic Space Marine rulebook's fluff pieces, they were just 'Commanders'; the name and concept of the Primarchs would not appear until the publication of The Lost and the Damned a year later.

All that being said, given Warhammer 40,000 is the setting it is, it would be safe to presume that the circumstances of the missing legions being [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] were indeed appropriately tragic.

That actually sits better than the Primarchs going rogue or doing something punishable by extermination.
Totally not their fault, but the Emperor had them deleted anyway.

GW promised twenty but only managed to deliver eighteen themes also sounds pretty accurate - I mean...um...totally planned it like that...

Take the optimistic view it's an intentional decision to allow creation of your own Legions.

pm713 wrote:
Take the optimistic view it's an intentional decision to allow creation of your own Legions.

Not a chance. That sounds organised.

Thousand Sons were dying from mutations/turning into Spawns before Magnus showed up and found a (temporary) cure - but there were no apparent danger of the TS being exterminated, so the missing legions can't have been removed due to only mutations.

In the HH books it seems that the two missing Patriarchs and Legions in a determined, final way by the Imperium / Emperor - not that they had gone missing in the Warp, died from mass mutations or been eaten by Orks.

One possibility could be that the Primarchs had a gigantic grudge that spilled over into war between their Legions with 90%+ losses, and Big E had the survivors executed as a warning example for others. It could explain why Russ and Magnus (or other non-compatible Primarchs) didn't started shooting each other.

I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

Big E couldn't handle the fact that one of his son's exceeded the limitations that is humanity by embracing proper orky values.

jareddm wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Also loses was early great crusade. There not heresey era. Late crusade events.

Not actually true. We know that all 20 primarchs met each other at least once and that all 20 were reunited with their legions at some point. The removal of both primarchs was in the last 20 years of the Great Crusade.

 Overheal wrote:
In reality they probably had some early ideas for them in the rogue trader days or whatever and either scrapped them because they were mind numbingly awful or it signifies some other personal thing with the original lore creators, like a creative difference. It could also be as simple as "yeah 20 was a good number but we ran out of ideas, so 2 got lost. yeah"

Not too far off from the truth. The actual reason was because they had written that there were 20 legions in the lore for Epic, but when it came time to publish, they realized they only had 18 legion descriptions written up.

Where is that stated?

Mostly I believe it to be strictly to allow creative room for people to create their own legions, but my deeper thought process feels that it has something to do(for at least one of them) with chaos and the emperor trying to nip it in the butt before it spread. As mentioned a few comments above this, thousand sons and blood angels(and some space puppies) all have mutations in their gene-seed and were not exterminated, so it truly couldn't solely be because of mutations. Perhaps one(or both) had some cray cray mutation and also either turned against the emperor or even found chaos pre-heresy. Another possibility is that they both were involved in some sort of super heretical situation/scheme and that's what got them banished. Perhaps they were planning to overthrow the emperor, perhaps they commited some sort of genocidal feat on terra or in the solar system, perhaps they rejected the emperor altogether and were punished for that...truth is, who knows?!?
Definitely feels kinda like a nod to the lost roman legions, or creative freedom for people to create custom armies. Maybe both, maybe neither. All I know is that whatever they did, it was bad enough to not put in ANY historical records and have them be completely forgotten. I did hear one theory where one of them's legion is what we know as The Lost and The Damned, which I kinda like as far as ones I've heard, but seriously we may. Ever know, and I'm okay with that. I have much love for a few of the known ones(on either side) anyways, so I'll suck to them or create successors etc to support my home dawgs(namely Magnus, angron, fulgrim, and the lion ;]). Great topic though as I feel that these two legions don't get enough discussion/debate even though they are a definite mystery in our little universe of plastic dudes!

 Vankraken wrote:
Big E couldn't handle the fact that one of his son's exceeded the limitations that is humanity by embracing proper orky values.

You know, you may not be far off. What if one of the Legions/Primarchs got a little too Xeno friendly? Started thinking "Hey, these Eldar/Other Xeno Race aren't too bad actually" and them *BLAM!*, although it's the Emperor so it wouldn't be a *Blam* more like a *ICBM Explosion Sound Effect*

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

Especially since - at least to mind - the introduction of more and more fluff (especially to do with the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy Eras) is limiting the possibilities of what could have happened to the Two Missing Legions, meaning that they would only ever be - as you said - a nod to the Missing Roman Legions.

Andersp90 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Also loses was early great crusade. There not heresey era. Late crusade events.

Not actually true. We know that all 20 primarchs met each other at least once and that all 20 were reunited with their legions at some point. The removal of both primarchs was in the last 20 years of the Great Crusade.

 Overheal wrote:
In reality they probably had some early ideas for them in the rogue trader days or whatever and either scrapped them because they were mind numbingly awful or it signifies some other personal thing with the original lore creators, like a creative difference. It could also be as simple as "yeah 20 was a good number but we ran out of ideas, so 2 got lost. yeah"

Not too far off from the truth. The actual reason was because they had written that there were 20 legions in the lore for Epic, but when it came time to publish, they realized they only had 18 legion descriptions written up.

Where is that stated?

Right here: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1908&st=0&#entry22143494

The two lost Primarchs were accidentally sent back in time, rather than lost in space. However, they were still able to use their supreme abilities to save the world they found themselves on.

But the truths they learned in the ancient past were too dangerous, too heretical for their father to accept. All memory of them was expunged, and so none today remember their ancient and noble battle cries, though they once inspired millions to: "Be excellent to each other" and "Party on, dudes. "

I always thought that it was to allow players to create their own chapters and primarchs, and its only later that the fluff has been hinting at what might have happened to them - before they had just been deleted from imperial records (hey, we've all hit the delete key by accident).

I do like the idea of one of the primarchs landing on an Ork World, uniting the Orks during the great crusade and clashing with the Emperors Forces in the Great Waaaggghhhhhh!

I also like the idea of one being infected by genestealers (throw in the possible corruption by chaos when stolen) and you have got one hell of a mix - maybe the primarch is the original Hive Mind.

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

It could ofc be something like that, but the Romans also had a habit of refounding completely destroyed Legions - I would actually see that as a more likely way to do it for the Emperor and later IoM too. Even our modern militaries do this. Reorganisations, cutbacks etc mean this and that Regiment no longer exists but some existing unit usually carries it's banner as a matter of tradition. Many Finnish regiments hold the banner and name of units founded back during Swedish or Russian Empire times, for example.

The only reason to completely leave a Legion out is IMO a scenario where they reflected so badly on old Emps that he wished to never hear about them again.

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

It could ofc be something like that, but the Romans also had a habit of refounding completely destroyed Legions - I would actually see that as a more likely way to do it for the Emperor and later IoM too. Even our modern militaries do this. Reorganisations, cutbacks etc mean this and that Regiment no longer exists but some existing unit usually carries it's banner as a matter of tradition. Many Finnish regiments hold the banner and name of units founded back during Swedish or Russian Empire times, for example.

The only reason to completely leave a Legion out is IMO a scenario where they reflected so badly on old Emps that he wished to never hear about them again.

Essentially they had to do something worse than Horus.

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

It could ofc be something like that, but the Romans also had a habit of refounding completely destroyed Legions - I would actually see that as a more likely way to do it for the Emperor and later IoM too. Even our modern militaries do this. Reorganisations, cutbacks etc mean this and that Regiment no longer exists but some existing unit usually carries it's banner as a matter of tradition. Many Finnish regiments hold the banner and name of units founded back during Swedish or Russian Empire times, for example.

The only reason to completely leave a Legion out is IMO a scenario where they reflected so badly on old Emps that he wished to never hear about them again.

Essentially they had to do something worse than Horus.

Not at all true.
The reason the Horus Heresy is remembered is because the scale of it was massive. Decades of work following the Heresy was dedicated to removing every trace that it ever happened, but there was always going to be something that got through. With the missing legions, the Imperium simply had more resources to ensure a more thorough erasure of their existence.

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

It could ofc be something like that, but the Romans also had a habit of refounding completely destroyed Legions - I would actually see that as a more likely way to do it for the Emperor and later IoM too. Even our modern militaries do this. Reorganisations, cutbacks etc mean this and that Regiment no longer exists but some existing unit usually carries it's banner as a matter of tradition. Many Finnish regiments hold the banner and name of units founded back during Swedish or Russian Empire times, for example.

The only reason to completely leave a Legion out is IMO a scenario where they reflected so badly on old Emps that he wished to never hear about them again.

Essentially they had to do something worse than Horus.

How about something as simple as disagreeing with the Emperor about the need to wipe out planets just because they were xenos - especially if they were non aggressive, to the point of actually refusing. Curiously, they didn't always attack the Eldar just because they were there - I wonder if the Emperor had some form of truce (limited), after all, he was fighting in the webway after he made Horus Warmaster.

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

It could ofc be something like that, but the Romans also had a habit of refounding completely destroyed Legions - I would actually see that as a more likely way to do it for the Emperor and later IoM too. Even our modern militaries do this. Reorganisations, cutbacks etc mean this and that Regiment no longer exists but some existing unit usually carries it's banner as a matter of tradition. Many Finnish regiments hold the banner and name of units founded back during Swedish or Russian Empire times, for example.

The only reason to completely leave a Legion out is IMO a scenario where they reflected so badly on old Emps that he wished to never hear about them again.

Essentially they had to do something worse than Horus.

When the 'Long War' is over, if the Imperium survives and is total in its victory, I wouldn't be surprised if all information on Horus, the chaos space marines and so on would be attempted to be completely supressed/redacted.

For now though, the Long War is hot and some level of intel on the enemy is required.

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the missing legions were just a nod to the missing Roman Legions, and the internet invented a mystery where there wasn't supposed to be one.

It could ofc be something like that, but the Romans also had a habit of refounding completely destroyed Legions - I would actually see that as a more likely way to do it for the Emperor and later IoM too. Even our modern militaries do this. Reorganisations, cutbacks etc mean this and that Regiment no longer exists but some existing unit usually carries it's banner as a matter of tradition. Many Finnish regiments hold the banner and name of units founded back during Swedish or Russian Empire times, for example.

The only reason to completely leave a Legion out is IMO a scenario where they reflected so badly on old Emps that he wished to never hear about them again.

True, refounding units are a nice background.
With regard to the legions, it could be a nod to one of those which lost its standard, like in the Eagle of the Ninth. All the shame from that prevented the legion being reformed.
All I'm saying is that I doubt GW ever meant the missing primarch's to be such a big thing.

I'm going to stuff with the timeline a bit.

The Big E lands to meet his second missing son, first impressions were not great, the Primarch tries to punch his teeth out then on failing this praises the Emperor's strength in the names of Gork and Mork before inviting him on a raid of the nearby 'Humie' settlements.
The Emperor kills this disgusting critter and continues the search only to find that the next son he discovers is much the same. Fearing all his sons may have turned into ferals he relents and tries to refine his 'second' foundling, pushing the Orcish son to the back of his mind and declaring him 'forgotten' but since he exists in the Primarch Project records the Big E can never truly remove him. The forgotten Primarch's legacy and Legion being declared stable are adapted into the UltraSmurfs to suppress possible Orcish behavior by close association with this boring chapter.

The 19th son discovered had been adopted by Dark Eldar and even adopted by their community.
Shortly after being rescued and united with his Legion the 19th son began turning their military doctrine into something that very much resembled Dark Eldar raiding parties.
When reports came in of Marines trying to drink the souls of defeated armies the Big E knew something had to be done.

They are references to the 'lost' Roman legions, as well as a great route for your creative juices to be explored. I like to imagine that one of them was the first to go Chaos, years before Horus, and not anywhere to the level. The other Primarch was incredibly close and long before the others found out attacked the fallen Primarch, who fell back to the galactic south more and more with the other in close pursuit. They vanished from history soon after. When the Emperor and the others found out, they assumed both Primarchs simply went rogue and expunged them from the records. The real point is that those two primarchs can be whatever you want them to be. I always like to imagine they're female, and that everything you've heard saying that isn't possible/they aren't is simply a cover-up.XD

pm713 wrote:
Take the optimistic view it's an intentional decision to allow creation of your own Legions.

This right here.

Pacifists. The missing primarchs were a pair of pacifists.