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 jreilly89 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Can someone explain how Magnus was 1 shot with 7 wounds?

No, they can't.

After some research, it looks like the Helfrost Destructor is a STR8 AP1 weapon with some special rules that can result in a 1-shot if a strength test is failed.

It would be nice if someone could walk me through this combat... I'm very unclear on what happened.

Not sure about the rest, but all Helfrost weapons have a rule where if you suffer a wound, you have to pass a Strength test or be removed from play. Hence why Magnus not being a GMC is fething stupid.

I think the helfrost rule is a typical case of stupid.

It doesn't bring much except some very weird corner cases which aren't beneficial in regular games yet can break the game at times.

It could've been, like most "removed from play" weapons, moved to strength D.

Or it could've simply used on a failed strength test, the wound causes instant death.

But no, it had to be a new USR that doesn't have any compatibility issues fixed, so that an EW like Magnus could still be OHKO from it...

I like it, personally, more things should ignore EW, or less things should have EW

 Bobthehero wrote:
I like it, personally, more things should ignore EW, or less things should have EW

Says the IG player. Mostly joking. Mostly.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I like it, personally, more things should ignore EW, or less things should have EW

I agree with the second option.

Having rules that ignore other rules is just bad game design. If you have a rule that says "I can't be killed via these things!" then make it rare rather making a bunch of weapons with the rule "lol nope".

morgoth wrote:
[
I think the helfrost rule is a typical case of stupid.

It doesn't bring much except some very weird corner cases which aren't beneficial in regular games yet can break the game at times.

It could've been, like most "removed from play" weapons, moved to strength D.

Or it could've simply used on a failed strength test, the wound causes instant death.

But no, it had to be a new USR that doesn't have any compatibility issues fixed, so that an EW like Magnus could still be OHKO from it...

Also.. why the Wolves have the frost weapons.... Does the Mechanicus know? Can they do that?

You don't need the Mechanicus to make you crazy weapons when you've got GW writers giving you top priority on the latest whizzpoppers from their holy Forge Worlds!

The Thousand Sons player , honestly due to the format it was hard to tell for sure but they were not using their psychic phase as strongly as they should be.
Even the commentators were talking about it.
I get the whole wanting to cast blessings for the +1 invul, but so much more should have been happening, especially with the dice on the table and Magnus.

xlDuke wrote:
You don't need the Mechanicus to make you crazy weapons when you've got GW writers giving you top priority on the latest whizzpoppers from their holy Forge Worlds!

Wow you could almost say that Spaces Wolves are special snoflakes or something...

Gee, I do wonder which writer is behind this....

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
You don't need the Mechanicus to make you crazy weapons when you've got GW writers giving you top priority on the latest whizzpoppers from their holy Forge Worlds!

Wow you could almost say that Spaces Wolves are special snoflakes or something...

Gee, I do wonder which writer is behind this....

I know, right? But we know better than to think they have favourites

It's no wonder they don't credit the codex writers any more.

Also:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...do we have a more insightful look into how the GW design team thinks? Or is this just a hilarious mess overall?

Why not both? It does suggest that the GW design team's thinking process is a hilarious mess.

I'll bet they'd have an easier time remembering the rules correctly if the BRB wasn't 200 pages long and written poorly.

 Pouncey wrote:
I'll bet they'd have an easier time remembering the rules correctly if the BRB wasn't 200 pages long and written poorly.

I don't have any problem remembering those rules

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I'll bet they'd have an easier time remembering the rules correctly if the BRB wasn't 200 pages long and written poorly.

I don't have any problem remembering those rules

Maybe it's just me then. But I do have a problem with remembering specific phrasing.

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I'll bet they'd have an easier time remembering the rules correctly if the BRB wasn't 200 pages long and written poorly.

I don't have any problem remembering those rules

Maybe it's just me then. But I do have a problem with remembering specific phrasing.

If browsing YMDC has taught me anything. it probably isn't just you

Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I'll bet they'd have an easier time remembering the rules correctly if the BRB wasn't 200 pages long and written poorly.

I don't have any problem remembering those rules

Maybe it's just me then. But I do have a problem with remembering specific phrasing.

If browsing YMDC has taught me anything. it probably isn't just you

Oh.

So then your personal lack of issue with remembering the rules isn't really a reason not to cut down on the length of the game's rules and write them better, is it?

Do you perhaps have an eidetic memory?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Don Savik wrote:
Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

People still have fun playing WH40k?

 Don Savik wrote:
Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

Not OP, just bad design.
The Helfrost is one of those things you can hardly balance.
97% of the time it sucks balls, and then, that one time, it deletes a Magnus.
That basically drives it's value as 97% * Mkay + 3% * MagnusWTF, i.e. dumb.

And then the other problem:

If it used Instant Death, it would've done the same on mostly every target, not have had that corner case, and one less rule to remember.

It's not a big deal, but given the choice, I would've just simplified Helfrost as: "on a 6 to wound: Instant Death with no saves of any kind allowed".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
People still have fun playing WH40k?

I do, thanks to my secret technique: I stopped playing against people who must win at any cost, including cheating (additional inch per movement, playing the clock, etc.) and being generally unfriendly.

Where I live, that means no tournaments, but hey... it's not like the glory of being the best of a total 30 guys in the country who care about it is really worth anything.

morgoth wrote:
I do, thanks to my secret technique: I stopped playing against people who must win at any cost, including cheating (additional inch per movement, playing the clock, etc.) and being generally unfriendly.

Where I live, that means no tournaments, but hey... it's not like the glory of being the best of a total 30 guys in the country who care about it is really worth anything.

I run into that argument a lot on the WoW forums: "Just stop caring about being the best, and it'll be fun, I promise."

People who make that argument never seem to consider that I already treat my gaming like that, since I don't handle pressure well enough to play competitively and never cared about competing with my fellow players. Yet despite that, the games, WoW and WH40k, still aren't enjoyable for me.

Maybe simply not caring about winning tournaments isn't enough to make anything fun?

 Don Savik wrote:
Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

Here there is none accusing GW (at least, in this instance) of a "rigged corporate charade". You failed spectacularly to understand what people complained about.
We are well aware of the design issue of GW rules. those are not trivial, because they had an impact on the demise of one of their main line (WHFB).

People are not criticising what happened per se, but the fact that GW seems to ignore their own rules. This suggest to most of us that they have not faith in their system, and for a reason, because is an unbalanced, convoluted mess that casts a shadow on a system we all love, or at least want to love. The design team shows more often than not to be clueless and amateurish, and this is just another example. For further evidence of how sloppy they are, check the Codex: Imperial Agents thread.

The frost weapon is just an example of what's wrong with 40k nowadays: useless, unclear, redundant rules that stack on each other, and incoherent fluff added to special snowflakes loved by a designer (this specific designer is infamous for that) that just does not fit with the universe, while other factions are left in the dust. What happens in the report just triggered comments on the weapon. Again, you failed spectacularly to understand that, too.

What does fun means? For me, is to play with my friends a well designed game. None of us is a competitive cheesemonger, but we want to be challenged by the game and by each other, and this can be possible only with a decent ruleset. Asking for something smart is asking for having fun.

 Pouncey wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I do, thanks to my secret technique: I stopped playing against people who must win at any cost, including cheating (additional inch per movement, playing the clock, etc.) and being generally unfriendly.

Where I live, that means no tournaments, but hey... it's not like the glory of being the best of a total 30 guys in the country who care about it is really worth anything.

I run into that argument a lot on the WoW forums: "Just stop caring about being the best, and it'll be fun, I promise."

People who make that argument never seem to consider that I already treat my gaming like that, since I don't handle pressure well enough to play competitively and never cared about competing with my fellow players. Yet despite that, the games, WoW and WH40k, still aren't enjoyable for me.

Maybe simply not caring about winning tournaments isn't enough to make anything fun?

I think you misunderstand...

I love competition, I just think 40K competition is meaningless - at least where I live.

If you can't enjoy 40K despite playing with people you like, then it's not a game for you and you should find something else.

morgoth wrote:
I think you misunderstand...

I love competition, I just think 40K competition is meaningless - at lest where I live.

If you can't enjoy 40K despite playing with people you like, then it's not a game for you and you should find something else.

Yes, I agree.

That's why I decided to quit 40k and WoW until their latest iterations in the future become something I am willing to try again to see if I enjoy it. Haven't played a 40k game in a few years.

 Pouncey wrote:
I play fun, casual games.

The rules should not be playtested like that. Period. Serious flaws with the rules are missed and imbalanced combinations are never examined because the playtesters are not interested in seeing where the rules break down, only in having a fun game.

Playtesting is about improving the rules by figuring out where they don't work. You will not encounter situations like that in a casual setting where no one's trying to do anything absurd.

Was this one of their playtesting games though?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
1-Batreps are intended to showcase the new army to drive sales.

Funnily enough I kept reading this claim all the time when I was buying WD's actively(somewhere 250-350 or so). Yet actual BR's won by new army was pretty much spot on 50-50...

If anything it was SUSPICIOUSLY close to 50-50.

tneva82 wrote:
Was this one of their playtesting games though?

I assumed it was.

Why else were they livestreaming this game?

Funnily enough I kept reading this claim all the time when I was buying WD's actively(somewhere 250-350 or so). Yet actual BR's won by new army was pretty much spot on 50-50...

If anything it was SUSPICIOUSLY close to 50-50.

I'm not enough of a conspiracy theorist to suggest it was intentional.

Point taken, though. I simply never cared enough to keep a record and I didn't even read most of the ones in the issues I received.

 Pouncey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Was this one of their playtesting games though?

I assumed it was.

Why else were they livestreaming this game?

Promotional use? They seem to have started doing that lately. Why stream anything at all? Because it showcases the hobby thus(hopefully) leading to more sales.

Thread opened on 16.12. Was this posted much after the fact? Based on comments about trying to comment but requiring member sounds like it was live stream rather than video battle report. If it was live stream either thread was opened MONTHS too late or it couldn't be playtesting. They are already RELEASED. Assuming they have any sort of playtesting then by now they are playtesting what will be released next year(most likely 8th ed related) rather than TS vs SW.

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Was this one of their playtesting games though?

I assumed it was.

Why else were they livestreaming this game?

Promotional use? They seem to have started doing that lately. Why stream anything at all? Because it showcases the hobby thus(hopefully) leading to more sales.

Thread opened on 16.12. Was this posted much after the fact? Based on comments about trying to comment but requiring member sounds like it was live stream rather than video battle report. If it was live stream either thread was opened MONTHS too late or it couldn't be playtesting. They are already RELEASED. Assuming they have any sort of playtesting then by now they are playtesting what will be released next year(most likely 8th ed related) rather than TS vs SW.

Okay then.

I withdraw my comments about playtesting.

Aside from charging from Rhino's (Have not seen the stream) Is that the only rules issue besides "Bad Play"?

Is there a link to this video?

Also, it's great to point out GW's mistakes, but tbh most recorded games I've seen on Youtube had a few mistakes in there, sometimes big ones.

And that goes for most games of 40K anyway so really... not a big deal I guess.

Yes - GW does not employ tournament players that take min/max lists for their reports. Their reports have never had min/max lists, which is something also complained about since the beginning of the internet on AOL chat rooms in the 90s when discussing white dwarf reports and how "unrealistic they are".

 auticus wrote:
Yes - GW does not employ tournament players that take min/max lists for their reports. Their reports have never had min/max lists, which is something also complained about since the beginning of the internet on AOL chat rooms in the 90s when discussing white dwarf reports and how "unrealistic they are".

Not just theirs... I've rarely seen anything on youtube which looked like top tournament players with top lists - I know there are some but it's really a minority.