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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 21:10:32
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As much as I do like them advancing the plotline and bringing back the Daemon Primarchs I have quite a few nagging issues with it.
1 - Marginalises the Xenos
They have never done a campaign book in which the Imperium did not feature. This hugely limits the storyline opportunities. You simply can't have, say, Slannesh attacking Commoragh because theres no Imperium involved. You can't have Chaos vs a Xenos race. It also means you can't do things like Tyranids vs Necrons or Tau vs Orks. Because the Imperium has to be the protagonist in every story its hugely limiting. We're always going to get a (probably first founding) chapter fighting against Chaos.
Its fundamentally all about the Daemon Primarches and essentially a second Horus Heresy. Chaos is the big bad and whatever the xenos are doing is ultimately unimportant.This was very prominent in the Mont Ka storyline where they basically outright state that the Tau Empire doesn't constitute a major threat in the grand scheme of things. The campaign even ends with the faction essentially knocked out of the War with the burning of the Gulf and the destruction of most of its army at Agrellen. Compare that to the threat Magnus poses? Just one Daemon Primarch manages to have a greater impact than the Tau Empire; to the point where the High Lords dispatch the entirety of their resources to destroy it. Whereas at the end of Kauyon the scene closes with a scene on Terra with the Tau Empire barely even on their radar.
2 - Heresy 2.0
We already have 30k. Is bringing back all the Primarches going to do anything other than just recreate the Heresy in 40k?
Remember what I ve already mentioned about the marginalisation of the xenos races. Why have Gulliman fight Tyranids when his nemesis is Lorgar? Why have Dorn potter about with some Necrons when he should be fighting Perturabo. The same is true for all of the Primarches. I mean I am fully convinced that this Tyranid assault in Baal is just a prelude to Kabandha trying to destroy the Blood Angels. Because a story which harkens so much back to the Heresy will naturally always become about Imperium vs Chaos. Its a trap and it means that every campaign story is going to play out the exact same way. Theres too much temptation to put those Primarchs against eachother and this means the other factions can go hang.
3 - The rest of the Imperium gets sidelined.
I can remember the original Eye of Terror and the Armageddon storylines from way back. Those campaigns put a lot of stress on the Imperial Guard and their role in the story. Creed, Yarrick, it wasn't all about the Space Marines. I'd go as far to say the Cadians and Steel Legion took centrestage. Yet, all of the recent campaigns have really heavily centralised the marines. The other arms of the Imperium are just secondary window dressing given the smallest lip service. Again, its mostly because the storyline is pushing the return of the Primarches and Heresy 2.0.
The other arms of the Imperium just don't have that connection to those events that makes for good drama. So while they're very popular armies and incredibly important to the universe we're very unlikely to see Admech, Guard, even Grey Knights or Deathwatch take centrestage because they're pushing the first founding chapters to the exclusion of all others.
To take an example. Lets say Sisters of Battle do get a release. How on earth can you fit them into a story that's all about the echoes of the Horus Heresy and the Traitor Legions long war against the first founding? You can't. They didn't even exist as a faction during they heresy. So by definition they would be much like the Guard a peripheral faction who happen to be present but aren't the main actors.
We're already seeing this with the run up to the 13th Black Crusade focusing on the Daemon Primarchs and Space Marines. Theres been hardly any mention of the Cadians. I mean the whole point is that they defend the Cadian Gate, they should take centrestage for the Imperium like they did in the Eye of Terror campaign. But, again, I think GW is making the story too focused on the marines. We already have Logan going to the Gate for round 2 with Magnus. Lets say another Primarch shows up. I honestly think Creed will play a very bit part; especially compared to the previous campaign.
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Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 22:26:52
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I don't think many people disagree with you.
That being said, why not create a campaign for you and your friends with whatever story you like? The storyline of the game is pretty negligible -- the only major limitation being that you won't be getting pretty new models.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 00:33:13
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Oh yeah me and my mate are running a Imp vs Tau story ATM. We re also building up to when he uses his nid army. He even got a friend to make a photoshop map of a star system for us. Looks great. Hopefully they bring out plastic sisters by then.
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Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 00:40:34
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Totalwar1402 wrote:3 - The rest of the Imperium gets sidelined.
I can remember the original Eye of Terror and the Armageddon storylines from way back. Those campaigns put a lot of stress on the Imperial Guard and their role in the story. Creed, Yarrick, it wasn't all about the Space Marines. I'd go as far to say the Cadians and Steel Legion took centrestage. Yet, all of the recent campaigns have really heavily centralised the marines. The other arms of the Imperium are just secondary window dressing given the smallest lip service. Again, its mostly because the storyline is pushing the return of the Primarches and Heresy 2.0.
The other arms of the Imperium just don't have that connection to those events that makes for good drama. So while they're very popular armies and incredibly important to the universe we're very unlikely to see Admech, Guard, even Grey Knights or Deathwatch take centrestage because they're pushing the first founding chapters to the exclusion of all others.
I think this one hits the nail on the head. When I started, 40k felt like this sprawling universe where every army got its moment in the sun and no more. A guard regiment or Marine chapter had like 2 or 3 key moments and the rest was left to your imagination. Now it's more like, "let's see what our hero space marines are up to this week."
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"Bringer of death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's death." - Litany of the Lasgun
2500 points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 00:53:20
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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I would have thought the problems would have been stuff like the retconned histories to explain why newer models were always part of the whole thing from the beginning and how GW is unwilling to let the timeline continue past 999.M41
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'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 03:20:20
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Missionary On A Mission
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I'm not sure advancing the story is as necessary as it's made out to be. It's supposed to provide a backdrop for your games, not drag them along on a tide of Mary Sue and grimdark (although if they rinse some of the ludicrous levels of grimdark out of the setting with a plot advancement that'd be fine).
The fact it's going to feature the Marines and Chaos makes it doubly concerning. The two blandest factions in the setting are about to go toe to toe for blah blah blah. Great. You do that. Over there, near the Eye of Terror, away from me. I'll be here on the Eastern fringe fighting Tyranids.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 03:50:38
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 06:22:56
Subject: Re:Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Wicked Warp Spider
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These are my same feelings, OP.
I think is all due to the awkward and unprofessional way they proceed now. Also, my personal theory is that GW has seen how FW is successful with the heresy completely missing the point of the line (and of why is successful) so some exec just asked the studio to "do the same, but in 40k. And BIGGER".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/18 06:24:58
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 16:51:21
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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BBAP wrote:I'm not sure advancing the story is as necessary as it's made out to be. It's supposed to provide a backdrop for your games, not drag them along on a tide of Mary Sue and grimdark (although if they rinse some of the ludicrous levels of grimdark out of the setting with a plot advancement that'd be fine).
The fact it's going to feature the Marines and Chaos makes it doubly concerning. The two blandest factions in the setting are about to go toe to toe for blah blah blah. Great. You do that. Over there, near the Eye of Terror, away from me. I'll be here on the Eastern fringe fighting Tyranids.
I do not think you can get away with calling chaos a "bland" faction. You can say its weak, or you do not prefer it,, or that it is handled badly. But you cant call it bland. CSM are probably the most lively (coloration wise) and varied (lore wise) of all the factions. The fact that it is also known as a kit bashers dream does not help that statement either. And yes, I htink some fluff for Chaos is a insanely good. But more and more GW is downplaying it for more standard stuff. So I guess you are half right. Chaos is getting blander.
Also, im about done with the current story arc unless GW gets someone on creative who understands how to write a story. Currently its the same forumla for every single encounter. Chaos comes up with some super sneaky ploy and puts some hurt on the imperium (always being sure to not kill major figures or places.). The imperium gets smart and comes to kick arse. Chaos gets bent (because space marines stronk!) over in a fight and retreats. Only for Abbadon/Magnus to cackle and rub their hands together while twirling a moustache and saying " all according to plan!".
You cant have a good story without a powerful antagonist. You cant have a powerful antagonist if they constantly lose. At some point GW is going to have to wake up and actually have some space marines lose, badly. It does not need to be chaos to do it either.. Yes, I am aware that space wolves were actually beaten in a few straight brawls in Wrath of Magnus. But the story turned out the same, as above. NOthing was lost, nothing was gained. No urgency was generated.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/18 16:58:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 16:59:45
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Table wrote: BBAP wrote:I'm not sure advancing the story is as necessary as it's made out to be. It's supposed to provide a backdrop for your games, not drag them along on a tide of Mary Sue and grimdark (although if they rinse some of the ludicrous levels of grimdark out of the setting with a plot advancement that'd be fine).
The fact it's going to feature the Marines and Chaos makes it doubly concerning. The two blandest factions in the setting are about to go toe to toe for blah blah blah. Great. You do that. Over there, near the Eye of Terror, away from me. I'll be here on the Eastern fringe fighting Tyranids.
I do not think you can get away with calling chaos a "bland" faction. You can say its weak, or you do not prefer it,, or that it is handled badly. But you cant call it bland. CSM are probably the most lively (coloration wise) and varied (lore wise) of all the factions. The fact that it is also known as a kit bashers dream does not help that statement either. And yes, I htink some fluff for Chaos is a insanely good. But more and more GW is downplaying it for more standard stuff. So I guess you are half right. Chaos is getting blander.
It's 'lets be evil for the sake of being evil and do evil things while we're evil, also there's some gods, and they're evil too'. All the nuance of a lump of stone, and you're left wondering why on earth anyone thinks joining them is anything but a terrible idea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 17:07:15
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Robin5t wrote:Table wrote: BBAP wrote:I'm not sure advancing the story is as necessary as it's made out to be. It's supposed to provide a backdrop for your games, not drag them along on a tide of Mary Sue and grimdark (although if they rinse some of the ludicrous levels of grimdark out of the setting with a plot advancement that'd be fine).
The fact it's going to feature the Marines and Chaos makes it doubly concerning. The two blandest factions in the setting are about to go toe to toe for blah blah blah. Great. You do that. Over there, near the Eye of Terror, away from me. I'll be here on the Eastern fringe fighting Tyranids.
I do not think you can get away with calling chaos a "bland" faction. You can say its weak, or you do not prefer it,, or that it is handled badly. But you cant call it bland. CSM are probably the most lively (coloration wise) and varied (lore wise) of all the factions. The fact that it is also known as a kit bashers dream does not help that statement either. And yes, I htink some fluff for Chaos is a insanely good. But more and more GW is downplaying it for more standard stuff. So I guess you are half right. Chaos is getting blander.
It's 'lets be evil for the sake of being evil and do evil things while we're evil, also there's some gods, and they're evil too'. All the nuance of a lump of stone, and you're left wondering why on earth anyone thinks joining them is anything but a terrible idea.
I would agree for the most part. But the stock and basics of the story is rather good (horus heresy). I myself would handle CSM very differently. But the base is there. And to a degree the same simplification can be attested to any faction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 19:50:57
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Major
London
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Marine are the focus, everyone else is there to be shot at.
Any other races thinking they are important are having delusions of grandeur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 20:22:47
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Missionary On A Mission
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Table wrote:I do not think you can get away with calling chaos a "bland" faction. You can say its weak, or you do not prefer it,, or that it is handled badly. But you cant call it bland. CSM are probably the most lively (coloration wise) and varied (lore wise) of all the factions. The fact that it is also known as a kit bashers dream does not help that statement either. And yes, I htink some fluff for Chaos is a insanely good. But more and more GW is downplaying it for more standard stuff. So I guess you are half right. Chaos is getting blander.
That last bit is the problem. They used to be compelling villains, but now, like Robin5t says, they're just "designated baddies" who want the Imperium to fall because " lol badguys".
The Worf Effect stuff doesn't help either. Every BRB tells us the Imperium is teetering on the brink and watch out here comes Abaddon again with his bull gak - but nothing ever comes of it. That's fine if the story is supposed to be a static backdrop for your games, but if it's going to move on then the only real way to do it is for the Imperium to start losing very hard indeed. And not just to Chaos, either. If they fed Smurf Village to the Nids that would be great.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 20:53:42
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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BBAP wrote:Table wrote:I do not think you can get away with calling chaos a "bland" faction. You can say its weak, or you do not prefer it,, or that it is handled badly. But you cant call it bland. CSM are probably the most lively (coloration wise) and varied (lore wise) of all the factions. The fact that it is also known as a kit bashers dream does not help that statement either. And yes, I htink some fluff for Chaos is a insanely good. But more and more GW is downplaying it for more standard stuff. So I guess you are half right. Chaos is getting blander.
That last bit is the problem. They used to be compelling villains, but now, like Robin5t says, they're just "designated baddies" who want the Imperium to fall because " lol badguys".
The Worf Effect stuff doesn't help either. Every BRB tells us the Imperium is teetering on the brink and watch out here comes Abaddon again with his bull gak - but nothing ever comes of it. That's fine if the story is supposed to be a static backdrop for your games, but if it's going to move on then the only real way to do it is for the Imperium to start losing very hard indeed. And not just to Chaos, either. If they fed Smurf Village to the Nids that would be great.
All according to plan! I meant to lose! I may have lost this battle but now I have the Sword of Robert Smith and next time well get you! *moustache twirl*. You are one hundred percent correct. And in that regard chaos is bland.Its to bad because the models and the original fluff are anything but.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/18 21:09:48
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Ship's Officer
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Yeah I have no interest in 40k turning into a gothic version of the heresy continuing. If I wanted the horus heresy, i'd stick with it. The space marines in the horus heresy were way better anyway. But for me 40k has been going downhill fluff wise for some time. One notable turn was the total revamp of the necrons into something way different .The whole purpose of the necrons was to be unthinking soulless machines. By making them into tomb kings in space or whatever then they lose their entire point. The appeal of necrons as an army was lost. The C'tan were interesting and a trip to think about.
Luckily the total revamp of dark eldar was more or less perfect and their personality intact...so theres one plus.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/19 02:46:05
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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40k fluff has been on a very long downhill slide for a while, in my estimation, since late 4th/early 5th. The newer stuff is finally moving stuff along but is just painfully either one-dimensional, rehashed, or absurdly over the top even for 40k, while the art increasingly transitions to rote copying of plastic models or something akin to League of Legends/WoW style that just doesn't fit 40k for me.
40k's fluff has lost much of its magic that attracted me, I miss the very "80's metal" feel a lot of it used to have, and the best stuff to read is still that older stuff, particularly the late RT/2E/3E stuff. The imagination of the universe is being squeezed out.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 02:46:38
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/19 04:54:35
Subject: Re:Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Confessor Of Sins
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I read a lot of Baen sci-fi in my youth. WH40k lore has never been stellar or even so much as "good."
Generally I believe that one of the strengths of WH40k is in the setting being expansive enough that you can invent your own stories for your battles, so you can make the story you like.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/19 05:40:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/19 21:39:40
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Vaktathi wrote: while the art increasingly transitions to rote copying of plastic models or something akin to League of Legends/WoW style that just doesn't fit 40k for me. They are hiring deviant art-tier people. The highs of the oldest illustrators are mostly gone. Most new stuff is painful tu watch and just a bland representation of the minis sold, without any original, inspiring style or creativity. Is sad. You see the life of the universe being drained out one image after another.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/19 21:40:22
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/19 22:20:05
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Wing Commander
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Kaiyanwang wrote: Vaktathi wrote: while the art increasingly transitions to rote copying of plastic models or something akin to League of Legends/WoW style that just doesn't fit 40k for me.
They are hiring deviant art-tier people. The highs of the oldest illustrators are mostly gone. Most new stuff is painful tu watch and just a bland representation of the minis sold, without any original, inspiring style or creativity. Is sad.
You see the life of the universe being drained out one image after another.
They should be getting people like Ashley Wood doing the art;
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Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/21 09:03:39
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Love it. Perfect tone. But I think that this guy is far away from the new shiny tone that people think is appealing for kids (weird, when I was a young edgelord I loved edgy stuff) and costs ten times the artits that just paint something on their 3D models and then highlight to blindness in a robotic, unoriginal style.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/21 09:04:04
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/21 09:25:50
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think we're about to start seeing more Xenos involvement and advancement now since the Arch Magos can't repair the golden throne and went to the DE to strike a deal. One of the people leading them through the webway in the new Fall of Cadia is a Dark Eldar Incubi of some sort.
I have a feeling this is going to end bad for both parties and I think the Dark Eldar are planning something big.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/21 11:22:24
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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It is sad how GW is illuminating all the mysteries of the Age of Heresy. A big appeal of the fluff was the unknown, and the sense that the best of us had already come.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/21 14:37:06
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Gamgee wrote:I think we're about to start seeing more Xenos involvement and advancement now since the Arch Magos can't repair the golden throne and went to the DE to strike a deal. One of the people leading them through the webway in the new Fall of Cadia is a Dark Eldar Incubi of some sort.
I have a feeling this is going to end bad for both parties and I think the Dark Eldar are planning something big.
What sort of deal?
I know that the Dark Eldar have the ability to regenerate any being with even the smallest of remains. Perhaps they have some knowledge of restoring the Emperors body or at least preserving it?
Well in the DE Codex its mentioned that Slannesh is trying to breech Commoragh. Theres a central portal that can be used and all of their efforts at sealing it are failing. Perhaps they need the Imperiums help in dealing with this threat. Or perhaps they have sold millions of worlds to the Dark Eldar.....
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Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/21 21:35:28
Subject: Issues with the current 40k Storyline
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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It is probably a case of quid pro quo. DE reanimate the big E/repair the throne and Ad Mech sort the issue with Khaines Gate using Dark Age tech or Void Dragon (read Necron) tech.
When Vect ceded swathes of Commoragh near to Khaines Gate you know it is bad if something has the galaxy's master stragegist (we will ignore Lady Malus for the purposes of this comment) scared you know it is fethed beyond all reason.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/21 21:53:42
Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. |
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