Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Recently I've been thinking about what Loyalist Legion is the mirror of what Traitor Legion and/or was designed by the authors to fight eachother, but tbh there are lots of options for most of them. There are some really simple ones like "Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors" But then you get legions like the Blood Angels, who can be connected with World Eaters, Emperors Children and Sons of Horus. Even the Ultramarines, I mean you could pair them with Word Bearers or Sons of Horus. Another example is Space Wolves, are they meant to be the mirror/enemy of World Eaters of Thousand Sons? Excited to hear some opinions on this.

Space Wolves I'd say are more enemies to Thousand Sons. And Dark Angels are enemies with themselves.

Space puppies are definitely the anti-thousand sons.
Imp fists for sure iron warriors
Iron hands vs emperors children
Word bearers vs ultramarines is my best guess
Salamanders vs death guard is my best guess
Raven guard vs world eaters is my best guess
Alpha legion vs white scars maybe?
Blood angels vs night lords
Dark angels vs sons of Horus is my best guess.
These could all be very wrong but those are my best guesses. Though a few of them are definitely interchangeable I really feel the blood angels night lords, space puppies thousand sons, iron hands emps children, and imp fists iron warriors are all most definitely true. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus definitely had beef after fulgrim went evil, dorn and purturabo are siege masters, space puppies and thousand sons have a long documented history of hatred towards each other, even before the heresy, and blood angels vs night lords just seems to fit in my minds eye. Idk just my speculation.

Salamanders. Nightlords.

They are opposite..

For me:

Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists: one of GW's most consistent fluff pieces.
Salamanders vs Night Lords: bit of a one-sided rivalry, but Vulkan lives indicates that the sallies were just about ready to murder the NL's before the heresy even started.
Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons: just finished reading a Thousand Sons, and this is my wholehearted view. In the interests of not derailing I won't debate between the two (hint: TS are my 2nd favourite legion).
Iron Hands vs Emperors Children: Still a sore grudge 10,000 years later (in Wrath of Iron). Its the difference between perfection that is mechanical vs flesh.
Word Bearers vs Ultramarines: Know no Fear gives a good indication about how the WB's feel to the boys in blue, and I doubt the Ultramarines feel any better to their ancient enemy who gave their empire one of its 3 worst beatings.
Sons of Horus vs Blood Angles: mainly sanguinius's death as the catalyst, but there is also the fact that many of the Black Crusades have fought against or been ended by the Blood Angels, so I'd say this grudge has actually gotten worse over the years.

The last 6 are tricky.
I would put the Death Guard and White Scars together, simply due to their different tactical strategies and the fact that they are not stated to have any particular nemesis'. However, Cadian blood indicates a nasty grudge between the Death Guard and Raven Guard, so they could go in instead.
Alpha Legion vs Raven Guard: both sneaky and using dishonourable warfare, I reckon if Corax and Alpharius had grown up on each others worlds they quite possibly would have switched places, so I would imagine the AL dislikes them for that. There's also the matter of tampering with the RG's gene-seed.
World Eaters and Dark Angels: there is nothing to match these two together besides the fact that I've run out of legions.

Dark Angels and Night Lords were bitter enemies during the Horus Heresy, and the Lion basically ended up scattering their fleet after chasing them all across the Piscena System for more than a year. The Lion and Night Haunter also have some pretty epic duels together, notably in Unremembered Empire and Angels of Caliban.

As an Iron Hands supporter, I strongly hate the Emperors Children, they killed our primarch in cold blood. Not only that but they think that their own organic flesh can be perfected by some silly heretic monster... THE FLESH IS WEAK! I also do not like the Raven Guard.... They left our primarch to die, not so easily forgiven.

Murrax9 wrote:
As an Iron Hands supporter, I strongly hate the Emperors Children, they killed our primarch in cold blood. Not only that but they think that their own organic flesh can be perfected by some silly heretic monster... THE FLESH IS WEAK! I also do not like the Raven Guard.... They left our primarch to die, not so easily forgiven.

Dunno I would call it cold blood. Both of them were pretty heated

Loyalists vs Traitors.

DA vs DA.

/thread.

Listing the rivalries I know/have read about and who I think ultimately won them:

Dark Angles vs Night Lords: Dark Angels
Blood Angels vs World Eaters: Arguably the blood angels, they held the imperial palace against huge odds and gunned down a lot of the world eaters in the process
Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists: Heresy era fists won, Iron Warriors I feel ultimately were victorious-crushing Dorn and his Legion at the Iron Cage
Alpha Legion vs White Scars: Alpha Legion messed up the wolves and the scars
Ultrasmurfs vs Word Bearers: World Bearers at Calth and across the 500 worlds of Ultmar
Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons: Dogs won sadly
Emperors Children vs Iron Hands: Iron Hands were almost totally destroyed and lost their Primarch, gonna chalk that up to EC
Raven Guard didn't really have one, maybe the WE on Istavaan when they were being hunted by Angron or possibly the alpha Legion after they screwed with their gene pool
Salamanders similarly didn't have any notable rivals, maybe the night lords



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah and Death Guard also don't really have one, neither SoH, everyone hated them though

Seems to me the ones that can't be argued with are:

Emperors Children vs Iron Hands (don't think this one needs explaining)
Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists (don't think this one needs explaining)
Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons (don't think this one needs explaining)
White Scars vs Death Guard (Pro Librarius vs the KKK for psykers, also they had completely different ways of making war and Mortarian swore to hunt Khan down)
Ultramarines vs Word Bearers (don't think this one needs explaining)

The ones that are up for debate are:

Blood Angels vs World Eaters or Sons of Horus (Mentioned in BA codex they had a rivalry with the WE for obvious reasons, it got messy during the siege of Terra. Sons of Horus, they slew Sanguinius and Horus feared the Blood Angels as well as it being generally accepted that Sanguinius would have ground the Sons of Horus out of existence from atop the eternity gate if Horus hadn't dropped his shield)
Dark Angels vs Night Lords or Alpha Legion (The whole Thramas Crusade and then the 1st and 20th Legion both being the most secretive, and if irc it was the Alphas who stopped the Angels getting to Terra.
Salamanders vs Night Lords (they tortured Vulkan, and Vulkan Lives showed they did not have a good relationship)

Raven Guard vs Night Lords or Alpha Legion (Corax says Curze is a dark mirror of himself in deliverance lost, and the Alpha Legion messed up their geneseed. All 3 have simmilar ways of war.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Sons of Horus, they slew Sanguinius and Horus feared the Blood Angels as well as it being generally accepted that Sanguinius would have ground the Sons of Horus out of existence from atop the eternity gate if Horus hadn't dropped his shield)

Huh? Accepted by who? He almost died 1v1 with Ka'Bandaha then slammed the gate shut and retreated into the palace. The defenders were utterly overwhelmed, they only held out so long due to the massively advantageous position they found themseleves in-on the walls of the greatest fortress in the galaxy. The Sons of Horus were winning. And Horus didn't fear Sanguinius, he was concerned that if he fell to chaos he would have the sufficient presence, authority and strength of character to challenge him for command of the traitors. He himself said that if Signus Prime failed then he would have to deal with Sanguinius personally, and that's exactly what he did

People in here just listing the main actors in heresy fights. DA fought NL, doesn't mean they were made to fight each other. They don't have some special enduring rivalry because of it.

Wolves and Sons, nothing special or 'mirrored' about them. Two bizarre and totally different legions fight each other to near mutual destruction. Russ and Magnus aren't polar opposite, nor are they particularly similar. It's just a battle. Their rivalry is post-heresy.

Bearers and Ultras. They're the biggest legions. Bigger battle, but still just a battle.

IW and IF sure, that's one of the only legitimate and enduring rivalries where they mirror each other with minor differences. Extra points for being an original rivalry not one that has been awkwardly shoehorned in by hack writers since the heresy fluff exploded.

Title of the thread is each Legions worst enemy, worst enemy and polar opposite are different things

BaconUprising wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Sons of Horus, they slew Sanguinius and Horus feared the Blood Angels as well as it being generally accepted that Sanguinius would have ground the Sons of Horus out of existence from atop the eternity gate if Horus hadn't dropped his shield)

Huh? Accepted by who? He almost died 1v1 with Ka'Bandaha then slammed the gate shut and retreated into the palace. The defenders were utterly overwhelmed, they only held out so long due to the massively advantageous position they found themseleves in-on the walls of the greatest fortress in the galaxy. The Sons of Horus were winning. And Horus didn't fear Sanguinius, he was concerned that if he fell to chaos he would have the sufficient presence, authority and strength of character to challenge him for command of the traitors. He himself said that if Signus Prime failed then he would have to deal with Sanguinius personally, and that's exactly what he did

I think everyone would "almost die" when fighting with a greater daemon, especially one of Khorne's most trusted generals. And Sanguinius would have beat Ka bandha the firstt ime on Signus Prime, he was winning until he got distracted by one of his Sanguiniary Guard having a rhino flipped onto him. And the second time they fought on Signus Prime he beat the crap out of Ka bandha with his bare hands, didn't even use his sword and still managed to break the Bloodthirsters axe, kick his teeth in and rip his wing off. As for Terra, we don't know the full details of the fight other than Ka bandha cast him down and Sanguinius got back up and broke his back. I think the "advantageous position" was cancelled out by being outnumbered 3 to 1, making it a pretty balanced fight. Horus feared Sanguinius, in every sense of the word. He allowed Lorgar to continue his crusade to make Angron a Daemon Prince as soon as he realised it might help kill Sanguinius. In Fear to Tread Sanguinius has a flashback to Ullanor where Horus pretty much says to Sanguinius "It should be you who is warmaster" and Horus himself says this in False Gods. Sanguinius is 100% accepted to be at least in the top 3 of the primarchs when it comes to 1v1 combat, of course Horus feared him. I always think the point of "Horus killed Sanguinius so he was the better fighter" makes no sense. Sanguinius was wounded and weary from his trials on Terra and Horus was cold chillin on the Vengeful Spirit and was boosted by the Chaos Gods. It would have been a different story had they both been on equal footing, not saying Sanguinius would have won, but it would have been a much more interesting fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:
People in here just listing the main actors in heresy fights. DA fought NL, doesn't mean they were made to fight each other. They don't have some special enduring rivalry because of it.

Wolves and Sons, nothing special or 'mirrored' about them. Two bizarre and totally different legions fight each other to near mutual destruction. Russ and Magnus aren't polar opposite, nor are they particularly similar. It's just a battle. Their rivalry is post-heresy.

Bearers and Ultras. They're the biggest legions. Bigger battle, but still just a battle.

IW and IF sure, that's one of the only legitimate and enduring rivalries where they mirror each other with minor differences. Extra points for being an original rivalry not one that has been awkwardly shoehorned in by hack writers since the heresy fluff exploded.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear in the first post, I meant some legions have a dark or simmilar "mirror" to them e.g Blood angels vs World Eaters, some were clearly made by the authors to fight eachother e.g Word Bearers vs Ultramarines. Because the Ultramarines are so large, they designed another large legion as they were the only ones who could realistically challenge them. Some have natural "worst enemies" of another legion, e.g Salamanders and Night Lords as they are complete polar opposites.

Cassor the Damned wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Sons of Horus, they slew Sanguinius and Horus feared the Blood Angels as well as it being generally accepted that Sanguinius would have ground the Sons of Horus out of existence from atop the eternity gate if Horus hadn't dropped his shield)

Huh? Accepted by who? He almost died 1v1 with Ka'Bandaha then slammed the gate shut and retreated into the palace. The defenders were utterly overwhelmed, they only held out so long due to the massively advantageous position they found themseleves in-on the walls of the greatest fortress in the galaxy. The Sons of Horus were winning. And Horus didn't fear Sanguinius, he was concerned that if he fell to chaos he would have the sufficient presence, authority and strength of character to challenge him for command of the traitors. He himself said that if Signus Prime failed then he would have to deal with Sanguinius personally, and that's exactly what he did

I think everyone would "almost die" when fighting with a greater daemon, especially one of Khorne's most trusted generals. And Sanguinius would have beat Ka bandha the firstt ime on Signus Prime, he was winning until he got distracted by one of his Sanguiniary Guard having a rhino flipped onto him. And the second time they fought on Signus Prime he beat the crap out of Ka bandha with his bare hands, didn't even use his sword and still managed to break the Bloodthirsters axe, kick his teeth in and rip his wing off. As for Terra, we don't know the full details of the fight other than Ka bandha cast him down and Sanguinius got back up and broke his back. I think the "advantageous position" was cancelled out by being outnumbered 3 to 1, making it a pretty balanced fight. Horus feared Sanguinius, in every sense of the word. He allowed Lorgar to continue his crusade to make Angron a Daemon Prince as soon as he realised it might help kill Sanguinius. In Fear to Tread Sanguinius has a flashback to Ullanor where Horus pretty much says to Sanguinius "It should be you who is warmaster" and Horus himself says this in False Gods. Sanguinius is 100% accepted to be at least in the top 3 of the primarchs when it comes to 1v1 combat, of course Horus feared him. I always think the point of "Horus killed Sanguinius so he was the better fighter" makes no sense. Sanguinius was wounded and weary from his trials on Terra and Horus was cold chillin on the Vengeful Spirit and was boosted by the Chaos Gods. It would have been a different story had they both been on equal footing, not saying Sanguinius would have won, but it would have been a much more interesting fight.

Your knowledge is a bit off, Ka'Bandha was about to kill Sanguinius, in fact the passage describing their duel specifically mentions that the killing blow was thwarted because the daemon was busy gloating, there is no mention of "being outnumbered 3 to 1, it was an airial duel, nobody else was involved. Signus Prime was not an accurate representation of the two duelling in both circumstances, the daemons were there to turn Sanguinius, not to kill him. And quite a bit of what you just said there is straight up false, he doesn't "allow Lorgar to continue when he realises it might help kill Sanguinius", he asks if that is the reason behind what he is doing. The whole point of that crusade in Horus' mind was to hurt the ultramarines, to cripple their Legion and isolate them from the wider Imperium "If Guillimans Legion is allowed to interfere on Terra all our efforts will have been for nought", and later to save Angron and ensure the world eaters loyalty. It had nothing to do with fear of Sanguinius. Similarly Fear to Tread is about limiting the blood Angels capacity to interfere with the siege of Terra, Horus was never scared of Sanguinius as a fighter, he was scared about his potential to replace him, you mention the book Betrayer but don't seem to have read it fully. Oh and lastly Horus wasn't boosted by the chaos gods in any way at all, and I think the idea that Sanguinius was too tired to perform well is lacklustre at best, this is a Primarch not a human, primarchs don't get worn out in such a way, he was beaten fair and square

BaconUprising wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
Sons of Horus, they slew Sanguinius and Horus feared the Blood Angels as well as it being generally accepted that Sanguinius would have ground the Sons of Horus out of existence from atop the eternity gate if Horus hadn't dropped his shield)

Huh? Accepted by who? He almost died 1v1 with Ka'Bandaha then slammed the gate shut and retreated into the palace. The defenders were utterly overwhelmed, they only held out so long due to the massively advantageous position they found themseleves in-on the walls of the greatest fortress in the galaxy. The Sons of Horus were winning. And Horus didn't fear Sanguinius, he was concerned that if he fell to chaos he would have the sufficient presence, authority and strength of character to challenge him for command of the traitors. He himself said that if Signus Prime failed then he would have to deal with Sanguinius personally, and that's exactly what he did

I think everyone would "almost die" when fighting with a greater daemon, especially one of Khorne's most trusted generals. And Sanguinius would have beat Ka bandha the firstt ime on Signus Prime, he was winning until he got distracted by one of his Sanguiniary Guard having a rhino flipped onto him. And the second time they fought on Signus Prime he beat the crap out of Ka bandha with his bare hands, didn't even use his sword and still managed to break the Bloodthirsters axe, kick his teeth in and rip his wing off. As for Terra, we don't know the full details of the fight other than Ka bandha cast him down and Sanguinius got back up and broke his back. I think the "advantageous position" was cancelled out by being outnumbered 3 to 1, making it a pretty balanced fight. Horus feared Sanguinius, in every sense of the word. He allowed Lorgar to continue his crusade to make Angron a Daemon Prince as soon as he realised it might help kill Sanguinius. In Fear to Tread Sanguinius has a flashback to Ullanor where Horus pretty much says to Sanguinius "It should be you who is warmaster" and Horus himself says this in False Gods. Sanguinius is 100% accepted to be at least in the top 3 of the primarchs when it comes to 1v1 combat, of course Horus feared him. I always think the point of "Horus killed Sanguinius so he was the better fighter" makes no sense. Sanguinius was wounded and weary from his trials on Terra and Horus was cold chillin on the Vengeful Spirit and was boosted by the Chaos Gods. It would have been a different story had they both been on equal footing, not saying Sanguinius would have won, but it would have been a much more interesting fight.

Your knowledge is a bit off, Ka'Bandha was about to kill Sanguinius, in fact the passage describing their duel specifically mentions that the killing blow was thwarted because the daemon was busy gloating, there is no mention of "being outnumbered 3 to 1, it was an airial duel, nobody else was involved. Signus Prime was not an accurate representation of the two duelling in both circumstances, the daemons were there to turn Sanguinius, not to kill him. And quite a bit of what you just said there is straight up false, he doesn't "allow Lorgar to continue when he realises it might help kill Sanguinius", he asks if that is the reason behind what he is doing. The whole point of that crusade in Horus' mind was to hurt the ultramarines, to cripple their Legion and isolate them from the wider Imperium "If Guillimans Legion is allowed to interfere on Terra all our efforts will have been for nought", and later to save Angron and ensure the world eaters loyalty. It had nothing to do with fear of Sanguinius. Similarly Fear to Tread is about limiting the blood Angels capacity to interfere with the siege of Terra, Horus was never scared of Sanguinius as a fighter, he was scared about his potential to replace him, you mention the book Betrayer but don't seem to have read it fully. Oh and lastly Horus wasn't boosted by the chaos gods in any way at all, and I think the idea that Sanguinius was too tired to perform well is lacklustre at best, this is a Primarch not a human, primarchs don't get worn out in such a way, he was beaten fair and square

You appear to have misinterpreted quite alot of what I've said, apologies if this is for shoddy writing lol. I didn't deny that Ka bandha was about to thwart the killing blow, I just said that he "cast him down and Sanguinius got back up and broke his back". However, i feel like this is evened out because on Signus Prime it was the other way around. Sanguinius stabbed him in the chest and while the daemon was on his knees Sanguinius rose his sword to strike the killing blow, and Ka bandha distracted him by essentially saying "Daemons of khorne don't lie, believe me when I say Horus has betrayed you". Sanguinius was so horrfied he got distracted and had his legs crushed for his troubles Also, KA bandha did try to kill him on Signus, in both the battles he makes killing blows at Sanguinius and says "if you refuse my offer I will destoy all you hold dear" and attacks with renewed vigour. The Word Bearer Kreed then says to Ka Bandha "The angel is too pious to turn from his God-father" so Ka banda knows he can't turn him. And I think when someone like Sanguinius is attacking you and beating the crap out of you, you do your best to kill them. So on Signus Sanguinius should have won round 1, but got distracted and lost. Round 2 on signus Sanguinius was the unchallenged victor, killing 2 greater daemons (bloodthirster and keeper of secrets) in the space of a minute. Round 3 should have been ka bandha, but he got distracted with his whole "blood for the blood god" thing. Ultimately, that places Sanguinius as the better combatant between the two. When I said "outnumbered 3 to 1" I meant the loyalists vs the traitors on Terra, not Sanguinius specifically. That was in response to you saying "The Blood Angels had the advantageous position" so I countered by saying "Yes, but they were outnumbered 3 to 1 so it was a fair fight, with the traitors maybe having the advantage because there were so damn many of them" lol. And I haven't got the book on hand, but Horus says to Lorgar something like "Why do you care about Angron, fight a fight that can be won, like Signus" and Lorgar says "Angron is my brother, you used to care about things like that." Then he gives a cryptic hint that Angron is the only one who can kill Sanguinius on Terra before he arrives on the Vengeful Spirit. And Horus is all like *gasp* "you've seen it" and doesn't protest about it anymore. Yes, the point of the crusade is to hurt the Ultramarines, but Lorgars point was to make sure Angron lived to kill Sanguinius, and Horus no longer protested about it when he understood this. I confess to being somewhat completely stumped when you say that "Horus wasn't boosted by the Gods". It is completely accepted by absolutely everyone who knows about the Heresy that he was. The whole point of Horus's journey to Molech in the book "Vengeful Spirit" was to boost his powers. The Emperor is as powerful as he is because he made the exact same trip to Molech to petition the Ruinous powers for moar power. Horus did this, and so is boosted to a strength that is somewhat simmilar to the Emperor. Sanguinius never stood a chance. Once again, it is accepted by every living person I have spoke to that Sanguinius was tired from his battle. He is a primarch, not a God. Humans feel pain, so do primarchs. Humans need to sleep, so do primarchs. Humans need to eat, so do primarchs. Humans need to drink, so do Primarchs. Yes, they can take more pain, go longer without sleep, food or drink, but they still need them. It was in no way shape or form a fair fight.. Finally, I do think Horus feared Sanguinius. He would be a fool not to. This guy is possibly the greatest warrior of the primarchs, one of the best generals and most charismatic of his brothers. He not only the only Loyalist Primarch who actually stands a chance at personally slaying him, he is the only loyalist charismatic enough to lead them to victory.

 MarsNZ wrote:


Bearers and Ultras. They're the biggest legions. Bigger battle, but still just a battle.

It was a one sided Rivalry ( because Lorgar was mad that Guilliman was used to burn his special city) up until the attack on Calth. Calth was when it turned full on hate for one another.