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Hey guys,

I'm building a 2,000 Point Vanilla Space Marine List that includes two Formations from the Angels of Death Supplement as well as the following:

-- A Captain
-- An Eight-Man Terminator Assault Squad
-- A Landraider Crusader as the Dedicated Transport for the Terminator Assault Squad

This is obviously not a Formation or Detachment, making my army Unbound. I'm also running the Captain and Terminator Assault Squad with Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.

Now My Questions Are:

Because the Landraider Crusader is a Dedicated Transport instead of a Heavy Support Choice:

(1) Does it benefit from the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics? [ I'm inclined to think that it does. ]
(2) Is it part of the Primary Detachment as per the rules on Page 117 of the BRB? [ Again, I'm inclined to think that it does. ]

Cheers guys

 IllumiNini wrote:
(1) Does it benefit from the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics? [ I'm inclined to think that it does. ]

I think this may be somewhat tricky in an Unbound army. Basically the Land Raider Crusader would have to be part of an Iron Hands Detachment to gain the benefit of the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics, and being chosen Unbound it's not by default part of any Detachment.

Assuming your Warlord is of the Space Marines Faction, all models with the Space Marines Faction would be considered part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. The trouble may arise if you have chosen different Chapter Tactics for units in your Formation choices, as while they are all of the Space Marines Faction they may not have the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics and so I don't think you could clearly call it an Iron Hands Detachment.

If all Space Marine Faction models in your army have the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics then I think the Land Raider Crusader would gain the benefit of the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.

(2) Is it part of the Primary Detachment as per the rules on Page 117 of the BRB? [ Again, I'm inclined to think that it does. ]

As above, if your Warlord is of the same Faction then it becomes part of the Primary Detachment.

Well with that, the problem you outlined is valid since the Formations I'm using will be taking the Black Templars Chapter Tactics instead of Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.

So this is where my thinking takes me:

For the sake of what is in the Primary Detachment and what isn't, I feel it's safe to say that the Formations I'm taking are not part of it since they have Black Templars Chapter Tactics. That leaves the Captain, the Terminator Squad and the LRC.

Now, since the Captain and the Terminators have the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics, I think that would make the Primary Detachment an Iron Hands Detachment. So I feel that the deciding factor is whether or not the LRC is part of the Primary Detachment (and thus an Iron Hands Detachment) because it's a Dedicated Transport (because if it is, then to my mind that means it will benefit from Iron Hands Chapter Tactics).

The Primary Detachment concerns itself with Faction though, not Chapter Tactics. Having a specific Chapter Tactics does not determine Faction any more than having a specific Preferred Enemy.

Basically they are all of the Space Marines Faction, so would all count as part of the Primary Detachment.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The Primary Detachment concerns itself with Faction though, not Chapter Tactics. Having a specific Chapter Tactics does not determine Faction any more than having a specific Preferred Enemy.

Basically they are all of the Space Marines Faction, so would all count as part of the Primary Detachment.

Fair enough. I have seen it argued that because there are Codeces such as the Blood Angels Codex and Dark Angels Codex, Space Marine Chapter Tactics indicate Faction (i.e. Space Marines with the Black Templars Chapter Tactics have the Black Templars Faction, etc etc etc). I've also seen this argument made in relation to taking - for example - a CAD and an Allied Detachment both drawn from the Space Marines Codex but allowed because the two Detachments take different Chapter Tactics. This is why I was making the distinction.

Yeah, I understand where the idea comes from, but sadly Faction and Chapter Tactics are pretty clearly distinct in the rules.

So now that we've established that every unit in my army (including the two Black Templars Formations), the real question still is whether or not the LRC benefits from the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics?

Because on the one hand it is a Dedicated Transport for an Iron Hands unit (arguably meaning that it would benefit from Iron Hands Chapter Tactics) while on the other hand the Primary Detachment contains more than one set of Chapter Tactics and thus could arguably not be classified as either a Black Templars Detachment nor an Iron Hands Detachment (meaning that the LRC would not benefit from Iron Hands Chapter Tactics).

From 'Chapter Tactics':

" The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter."

And then:

"Iron Hands characters and vehicles have the It Will Not Die special rule."

This makes it clear that vehicles with Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands) special rule of course have the It Will Not Die special rule.

Land Raider Crusaders do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule, so per the above cannot claim to be an Iron Hands vehicle.

The Space Marines draft FAQ though clarifies that vehicles in an Iron Hands Detachment have the It Will Not Die special rule even if they do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule, but again you get back to the issue of determining what an Iron Hands Detachment is.

I would say it's abundantly clear that a Detachment made up of two or more different Chapter Tactics could not be called a Detachment of either. An apple basket isn't an apple basket if it contains oranges; it's an apple(s) and orange(s) basket.