Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

(I didn't see a Tactica for the whole codex, just specific offshoots for Inquisition and the old thread for SoB. With that in mind, I mostly wanted to talk about the stuff that's 'New', so...)

First off, we have Mechanicus. Now, I was expecting a wee bit more when I saw that they'd be included in the book. (At least, I thought they'd have access to something *besides* Servitors.) However, there's one very clear use for these guys - Cheap spam, in order to get a ton of units with the Canticles of the Omnisiah rule. Cheap Heavy Bolters aren't terrible either, but I don't see the Techpriest Enginseer as all that useful when for just 25pts more, lots of Imperialarmies could just get a Techpriest, who has +1 to literally every stat. Fortunately, since you only get Canticles as part of the detachment, you can't spam 10pt Servitors in an unbound list.

Speaking of cheap spam, though, there is a bit of an exploit if you take Unbound lists using Aeronotica - Bringing in 5 or 6 Officers of the Fleet could utterly cripple any reserves-dependent army that doesn't have any method of coming in automatically. However, if you're playing bound, I don't see this having much use unless they FAQ it so that the Valkyrie can carry troops from other factions when being deployed/in reserves - Otherwise, they're just kind of pricey, and not all that useful for most armies. (That being said, a few of these puppies with 1+ reserves rolls carrying useful troops would actually be pretty sweet.)

And on the subject of spam, Astra Telepathica seems to be actively encouraging it - Zero model tax, zero discouragement. You can take a 50pt Psyker with two wounds, or a 25pt psyker with one wound and fewer choices for powers. Oh, and Wyrdvane Psykers. I'll admit that manifesting on 3+ is actually pretty cool, but the problem is that you can only take one 'Good' psyker with the Wyrdvanes, and Wyrdvanes themselves aren't really that good - Terrible in close combat, terrible defensively. (Okay, caveat - IF you managed to roll Iron Arm on a unit of 10 Wyrdvane Psykers, it would be absolutely hilarious as they went from tiny wimps to S5 T6 beasts, but that still wouldn't actually be that great except for objective camping - With WS2 and only 2 attacks (1 + 2ccw) they still suck at melee.)
All in all, Astra Telepathica seems to replace the old 'Inquisition Acolyte Psyker Spam' choices, dropping the 18-pt Warp Charge that you could get with Acolyte squads for a 25pt Warp Charge who effectively loses two wounds, but gains the IC status allowing him to hide in other squads.

Won't talk too much about Adepta Sororitas (They have their own thread, after all), but I'm glad that not too much was changed. Priest spam is easier than ever, and adding in priests to other armies is pretty encouraged now too. (In fact, any Imperial army that has problems with morale or needs a buff to CC with a footslogging unit now has the perfect choice.)

Without Drop Pods, I'm not too thrilled about the Veterans choice. Also, anyone with the Deathwatch codex can pretty much take the exact same unit as presented here, except in a Formation instead of a Detachment, and with one Terminator, Vanguard Veteran, Bike, or HQ choice thrown into the squad. (But with access to a bunch of great toys, like Boltgun/Shotguns combos which are conspicuously absent in the Imperial Agents version, and Drop Pods, which are necessary for an army with such short range.) Outside of using them with Inquisition, these guys are probably going to get a pass.

Grey Knights are... Well, they're Grey Knights. 33pt Terminators, swapping out a Power Fist for a Force Sword and psychic powers. If you need a way to kill non-TEQ in Close Combat, especially multi-wound models. Since there's no access to Grey Knight Librarians or other HQs, they don't offer the same sort of combo potential that the 'New' options present (Namely, giving a chance to throw in a single really powerful Psyker with the rest of your army), and Terminators have been suffering in the meta for a while anyways, but they are what they are. (And at least unlike Deathwatch, I don't see any major equipment changes, and they have access to all their normal transport options.)
Coming in from reserves on Turn 1 is pretty neat, too, for a good Alpha Strike (And so you don't lose out on their Warp Charges.)

Legion of the Damned kind of suck, but not because of the detachment. Coming in precisely when you want them to is a handy trick. What isn't handy is paying 25ppm, and all you get in exchange is Space Marine veterans with a 3++ and Ignores Cover. No access to Plasma Cannons, and flame weapons already get Ignores Cover, so if they're going to see use it's probably as a Melta delivery system (Slow and Purposeful comes in handy here), but 145 points for two Meltaguns with Ignores Cover is a pretty hefty cost. (Also: Can someone please explain to me why a Storm Bolter costs 5pts on these guys, but a Boltgun is free? They've got Slow and Purposeful. The only difference is one extra shot at 12-24", but they Deep Strike, so they're rarely going to be at long range anyways. Am I missing something, or did the rules guys just not think it through?)

The Assassins are exactly what it says on the tin. A bonus VP if they kill the enemy's Warlord is a neat little ability, but it seems to me that units like these are best suited for hitting vulnerable specialists, not fighting head-to-head against tough units. Most of them seem to costly for their utility in my opinion, but they're still not terrible. (You won't see many people running the 4-assassin Formation, though.)


As for Inquisition, there's a proper thread for this, so all I'm going to say is... They fixed Jaekero! It used to be, taking more than a couple of them meant throwing out their best ability - The '6' result on their Buff table gave you two extra rolls on the chart, but since having more than one monkey master gave you a +1, having 6 or more meant you would never get any abilities, and having even 4 or 5 meant skirting disaster. Now, the chart says that a '6' result means you get to PICK two different powers - Much, much better. It might not be the most potent possible unit, but taking 6 monkeys, a bunch of Deathwatch could be great. (The Jaekero boosts are far more potent when used on Space Marines - Giving Rending to a sniper-type weapon isn't helpful, but +12" range on Special Issue Ammo is awesome, +1 armor save on Power Armor is really really awesome, and a 5+ Invuln isn't bad either.) Taking them with Stalker Bolters, and adding some Crusaders in the front, Acolytes for extra shielding, and maybe an Astropath into the squad could be an incredibly potent firing solution. Or, heck, make it a Melee deathstar - With Jaekero giving 2+5++, Deathwatch are as durable as Terminators, which mitigates their biggest weakness as a melee unit. (Not to mention, 2+5++ with a psyker attached for buffs, Zealot and other stuff from a local Priest, and crusaders watching the front of their squad.)

Can you attach Jokaero to squads then?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Can you attach Jokaero to squads then?

Not in the traditional sense, but 0-6 of them may be taken in a Henchmen squad, and a squad of Deathwatch can also be smooshed into the Henchmen squad if you're taking an Ordo Xenos inquisitor.

and a squad of Deathwatch can also be smooshed into the Henchmen squad if you're taking an Ordo Xenos inquisitor

This bit is a source of debate

Waaaghpower wrote:
Priest spam is easier than ever

... sort of. They take up an HQ slot now, which means an incremental decrease in the tax (5pts over the old Allied + Priests setup) but limits you to 2 Priests max per formation.

 Mr Morden wrote:

and a squad of Deathwatch can also be smooshed into the Henchmen squad if you're taking an Ordo Xenos inquisitor

This bit is a source of debate

I can see how that would be the case. The Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch wouldn't be a part of the big unit since they don't have the 1 superscript. It sucks, because some Jokaero attached to some Deathwatch would be awesome as hell. Otherwise, Jokaero are fairly worthless, IMO.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Legion of the Damned kind of suck, but not because of the detachment. Coming in precisely when you want them to is a handy trick. What isn't handy is paying 25ppm, and all you get in exchange is Space Marine veterans with a 3++ and Ignores Cover. No access to Plasma Cannons, and flame weapons already get Ignores Cover, so if they're going to see use it's probably as a Melta delivery system (Slow and Purposeful comes in handy here), but 145 points for two Meltaguns with Ignores Cover is a pretty hefty cost. (Also: Can someone please explain to me why a Storm Bolter costs 5pts on these guys, but a Boltgun is free? They've got Slow and Purposeful. The only difference is one extra shot at 12-24", but they Deep Strike, so they're rarely going to be at long range anyways. Am I missing something, or did the rules guys just not think it through?)

My guess: it's a formatting template thing. Every unit that I've ever seen with the option pays 5pts for storm bolters, so why should these guys get a discount? Then when they eliminate the unit they DS'd next to, the SB is still in range for the next turn.
Do they purchase out of the Armoury or is it listed in their datasheet?

Sounds like you're right to be confused, though. They're expensive enough already and add the modeling challenges on top of that I don't expect to see LotD with storm bolters any time soon.

You give them a Plasma gun and Multi-Melta. They function much better that way.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I can see how that would be the case. The Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch wouldn't be a part of the big unit since they don't have the 1 superscript. It sucks, because some Jokaero attached to some Deathwatch would be awesome as hell. Otherwise, Jokaero are fairly worthless, IMO.

They're crazy-expensive for a BS3 model firing mostly single-shot weapons. I get that you have to pay for the special rules, but still.

Also if you don't smush the Kill Team together with the Acolytes (which I don't think is required) you get to bring two vehicles in one slot, which is kinda nice. if you do, then your Kill Team or Battle Sisters are lumbered with a bunch of GEQ dudes who will die and force Morale on them, which I'm not keen on. Harambe DW might sound like fun, but having 150pts of shootan' flee off the board because some Acolytes died would be bad.

Is there any reason to use this book instead of the preexisting books? Or sounds, mostly, like it's a bit more convenient and cheaper than butting the pieces, but that everything in it is a little worse than the original.

As far as tactics go, it seems like the general rule is "Use the other book."

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Priest spam is easier than ever

... sort of. They take up an HQ slot now, which means an incremental decrease in the tax (5pts over the old Allied + Priests setup) but limits you to 2 Priests max per formation.

Well, no. You can take that side detachment to get a single Priest, 0-1 optional elites, and nothing else. Spam those puppies indefinitely
As for the Deathwatch thing...
Okay, pretend with me that GW isn't incredibly stupid, and it's just an oversight that will be cleared up in an FAQ soon. (Because if it isn't, then adding in the various other factions is completely and utterly useless.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, no. You can take that side detachment to get a single Priest, 0-1 optional elites, and nothing else. Spam those puppies indefinitely

So it's a "for-fun" thing then, not an "I'm going to a tournament that only allows 4 Detachments max" thing.

Okay, pretend with me that GW isn't incredibly stupid, and it's just an oversight that will be cleared up in an FAQ soon. (Because if it isn't, then adding in the various other factions is completely and utterly useless.)

I don't want it to be cleared up, though. I'd rather have them be seperate units so I can take two vehicles in one slot. I don't think the mini-Winstons do enough to justify the extra risks you're taking having mixed armour in the unit.

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, no. You can take that side detachment to get a single Priest, 0-1 optional elites, and nothing else. Spam those puppies indefinitely

So it's a "for-fun" thing then, not an "I'm going to a tournament that only allows 4 Detachments max" thing.

Okay, no. We're talking 40k tactics here, not house rules. If any discussion of potential tactics has to be couched in "Well, we can't use large chunks of the rulebook", then it's going to hamper discussions pretty notably.
2/3rds of the IA codex is single-unit detachments. If we aren't going to mention or use any of those detachments because ITC (or any other tournament) says it's a no-no, then this thread - or any discussion of IA outside of the Sisters or Inquisition thread - might as well not exist.

Flipped through the book today at my FLGS. The real stand outs I saw were: 25 pt Priests for rerolling armor, and invuls for a unit (are they Independent Characters?), and Inquisitors giving you a decent Warlord Trait for Unique Character armies that have theirs fixed.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Flipped through the book today at my FLGS. The real stand outs I saw were: 25 pt Priests for rerolling armor, and invuls for a unit (are they Independent Characters?), and Inquisitors giving you a decent Warlord Trait for Unique Character armies that have theirs fixed.

Priests aren't new, but the effectively limitless access to them is. They are indeed Independant Characters, making them an excellent addition to any melee unit that he can deploy with and keep up with.

So I think some of these formations can be abused more than meets the eye, initially.

Take Daemonhunter Strike Force, for example. It's just 1 Troop OR 1 Fast Attack and 1 Optional Heavy Support. The book obviously wants you to think of Terminators, Interceptors and Dreadknights, but those aren't all you can take from the requirements.

Since the formation retains Faction: Grey Knights, we can use any Grey Knight units in those slots.

In Codex: Grey Knights, Rhinos, Razorbacks and Stormraven Gunships are Fast Attack units. Using this formation, you could just take a Stormraven completely tax free.

Purgation Squads, Land Raiders (plus Crusaders and Redeemers) are also Heavy Support. You could take any of those instead of the Dreadknight.

Strike Squads can also be taken in the troop slot if you just want a minimal cost there.

Notably, the Adepta Sororitas Ministorum Delegation prohibits this and says it must be a Priest. The Psykana Division doesn't, however and says any HQ of the Astra Telepathica can be taken. Sadly, I don't know enough about them to know if they have any other HQ's.

Anyway, not saying we'll find anything super useful, but it is an avenue I haven't seen anyone exploring yet.

Audustum wrote:
So I think some of these formations can be abused more than meets the eye, initially.

Take Daemonhunter Strike Force, for example. It's just 1 Troop OR 1 Fast Attack and 1 Optional Heavy Support. The book obviously wants you to think of Terminators, Interceptors and Dreadknights, but those aren't all you can take from the requirements.

Since the formation retains Faction: Grey Knights, we can use any Grey Knight units in those slots.

In Codex: Grey Knights, Rhinos, Razorbacks and Stormraven Gunships are Fast Attack units. Using this formation, you could just take a Stormraven completely tax free.

Purgation Squads, Land Raiders (plus Crusaders and Redeemers) are also Heavy Support. You could take any of those instead of the Dreadknight.

Strike Squads can also be taken in the troop slot if you just want a minimal cost there.

Notably, the Adepta Sororitas Ministorum Delegation prohibits this and says it must be a Priest. The Psykana Division doesn't, however and says any HQ of the Astra Telepathica can be taken. Sadly, I don't know enough about them to know if they have any other HQ's.

Anyway, not saying we'll find anything super useful, but it is an avenue I haven't seen anyone exploring yet.

That's a really good point, actually. I double checked the wording, and you're right - Barring any extra FAQs, the formations are not limited to the units presented in the book.
There aren't any other models with the Astra Telepathica faction that I know of, so that can't be broken, and Deathwatch only have one Troops choice, so their option can't be broken.
Also, I checked - For the Mechanicus, it specifically notes that the HQ has to be an Enginseer, and the Elites has to be a unit of Servitors. So I think this was an intentional (If bizzare) design choice.

Outside of free access to Stormravens, I'm not to worried about it being badly exploited, though. (And even then, Stormravens aren't really OP enough to worry about that kind of...
Oh... Oh goodness. They can come in from reserve on turn 1, as long as you Deep Strike.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, no. You can take that side detachment to get a single Priest, 0-1 optional elites, and nothing else. Spam those puppies indefinitely

So it's a "for-fun" thing then, not an "I'm going to a tournament that only allows 4 Detachments max" thing.

Okay, no. We're talking 40k tactics here, not house rules. If any discussion of potential tactics has to be couched in "Well, we can't use large chunks of the rulebook", then it's going to hamper discussions pretty notably.
2/3rds of the IA codex is single-unit detachments. If we aren't going to mention or use any of those detachments because ITC (or any other tournament) says it's a no-no, then this thread - or any discussion of IA outside of the Sisters or Inquisition thread - might as well not exist.

Right, but by the same token if I'm not building for a comp meta then I can do whatever I like - I can ally 1500pts of Genestealer Cults to a Coteaz Warband plus 11 Astropaths and summon 30-50 Claw-Morphs every turn, or run 14 Valkyries with various loadouts, etc etc. Not much need for a "tactica" if I can do whatever I want, really.

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, no. You can take that side detachment to get a single Priest, 0-1 optional elites, and nothing else. Spam those puppies indefinitely

So it's a "for-fun" thing then, not an "I'm going to a tournament that only allows 4 Detachments max" thing.

Okay, no. We're talking 40k tactics here, not house rules. If any discussion of potential tactics has to be couched in "Well, we can't use large chunks of the rulebook", then it's going to hamper discussions pretty notably.
2/3rds of the IA codex is single-unit detachments. If we aren't going to mention or use any of those detachments because ITC (or any other tournament) says it's a no-no, then this thread - or any discussion of IA outside of the Sisters or Inquisition thread - might as well not exist.

Right, but by the same token if I'm not building for a comp meta then I can do whatever I like - I can ally 1500pts of Genestealer Cults to a Coteaz Warband plus 11 Astropaths and summon 30-50 Claw-Morphs every turn, or run 14 Valkyries with various loadouts, etc etc. Not much need for a "tactica" if I can do whatever I want, really.

Well, speaking tactically, that's not actually a very good idea. It'd do well against certain enemies, but since all of your psychic batteries have only one unit they can join to (The Warband) you're going to be incredibly vulnerable to any decent Alpha Strike list. Minimum cost, you're looking at 400 points for the Coteaz Warband and Astropaths, and that's going to have effectively zero defensive capabilities. If you want defensive capabilities, the best you can hope for is adding Crusaders or more Acolytes, which is ultimately going to cost you more points, and not going to help all that much compared to the expense. One good Alpha Strike, you're dead. One unit of Sisters of Silence or a Calexus assassin in the right spot, you're shut down.

As for running 14 Valkyries? Also a terrible idea. It does not give you nearly enough damage output, most armies will be able to either safely ignore you or just shoot you off the board, and - Biggest problem - You're going to lose turn 1 because don't have any models on the board.

If you're trying to be scary with your 'crraaaaaazy' unbound lists, you need to come up with a list that's actually threatening first.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, speaking tactically, that's not actually a very good idea. It'd do well against certain enemies, but since all of your psychic batteries have only one unit they can join to (The Warband) you're going to be incredibly vulnerable to any decent Alpha Strike list.

That's what the Genestealer Cults are for. 1500pts of Genestealer Cults is, like, 20 units, at least 7 of which are rocking Shrouded turn one and most, if not all, of them are going to be Cult Ambushing you. Feel free to Alpha Strike the Warband though.

Then again I could just dump the Warband altogether and take Coteaz as a Representative. Coteaz and GSC are a pretty egregious example of Come The Apocalypse synergy - I don't think there's anything better, really. If you're going second he makes it more likely that you'll go first, and if you're going first he allows you to be super-aggressive with your Ambush without fear of Seizing. Once he's done that he can sit in the corner generating his little Warp Dice for me, maybe holding an Objective with his 2+ armour save and his pet pidgeon, whatever.

If you're trying to be scary with your 'crraaaaaazy' unbound lists, you need to come up with a list that's actually threatening first.

None of those armies are Unbound. That's my point. If you don't limit Detachments and Alliance levels I can run whatever I like - I can run that gak up there, I can find better synergies with other stuff and run that instead, I can throw in some Come The Apocalypse allies from literally any Codex to patch whatever weaknesses you find... there's so much stuff you can do. Too much for a tactica to be worth anything, I think.

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, speaking tactically, that's not actually a very good idea. It'd do well against certain enemies, but since all of your psychic batteries have only one unit they can join to (The Warband) you're going to be incredibly vulnerable to any decent Alpha Strike list.

That's what the Genestealer Cults are for. 1500pts of Genestealer Cults is, like, 20 units, at least 7 of which are rocking Shrouded turn one and most, if not all, of them are going to be Cult Ambushing you. Feel free to Alpha Strike the Warband though.

Then again I could just dump the Warband altogether and take Coteaz as a Representative. Coteaz and GSC are a pretty egregious example of Come The Apocalypse synergy - I don't think there's anything better, really. If you're going second he makes it more likely that you'll go first, and if you're going first he allows you to be super-aggressive with your Ambush without fear of Seizing. Once he's done that he can sit in the corner generating his little Warp Dice for me, maybe holding an Objective with his 2+ armour save and his pet pidgeon, whatever.

If you're trying to be scary with your 'crraaaaaazy' unbound lists, you need to come up with a list that's actually threatening first.

None of those armies are Unbound. That's my point. If you don't limit Detachments and Alliance levels I can run whatever I like - I can run that gak up there, I can find better synergies with other stuff and run that instead, I can throw in some Come The Apocalypse allies from literally any Codex to patch whatever weaknesses you find... there's so much stuff you can do. Too much for a tactica to be worth anything, I think.

Okay, not unbound. 'crraaaaaaazy' non-ITC lists. And you're completely missing my point - The lists you mentioned are *terrible*. Never mind whether or not they're fluffy or fun to play against, they're just not going to win games against a competent opponent. If your point with the Genestealers+Warband was that the Warband was somehow going to make the genestealers work better, you completely missed the mark, because your defense when I point out how easy it would be to kill that kind of warband setup was to say that the Genestealers would be fine - If you're taking 1500pts of genestealers and 500pts of Inquisition, and I kill all the Inquisition with an alpha-strike, you just lost a quarter of your army.
And yeah, taking Coteaz with non-imperial armies definitely isn't fluffy, but it also isn't a great idea - You're spending 100 points on a model who does provide a slightly better chance of getting first turn, but without any Battle Brothers, he's just going to stand out in the open to twist in the wind, unable to really accomplish much on his own.

That's the thing, the 40k rules aren't perfect, but they ARE set up so that spamming a single unit for your entire army usually won't work. Changing the rules to limit the number of available Detachments like ITC does isn't going to fix the balance, it's just going to shift the meta towards codexes that have more options.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, not unbound. 'crraaaaaaazy' non-ITC lists.

Just "Battleforged" is fine. Also the Genestealer Cults + Coteaz list would be perfectly legal under ETC rules. I'm tempted to try it out, actually.

And you're completely missing my point - The lists you mentioned are *terrible*.

You're missing mine too. Tell me they're terrible and I can go away and fix them using whatever Codex I have to hand. Maybe throw a Gorepack in there, a Gladius, whatever. Anything goes when you're thinking without comp. It's why a tactica is worthless without any kind of context - I just have too many options.

These GSC synergies are a case in point.

Never mind whether or not they're fluffy or fun to play against, they're just not going to win games against a competent opponent.

I've won plenty of ITC/ ETC sceanrio games with my GSC against competent opponents running GT-trimmed lists with "OP" units in them. I'd probably win more if I could take Coteaz, because he protects me from Seizes and allows me to be more aggressive when going first. That's the kind of nonsense you abet with CTA Allies - GSC gain a hell of a lot of power from Coteaz, and they clearly weren't meant to have it. They gain a lot more from cheap, expendable Warp Charges too.

If your point with the Genestealers+Warband was that the Warband was somehow going to make the genestealers work better, you completely missed the mark

The whole GSC schtick is "gak everywhere, kill it all or die", and while Telepathic Summons isn't a lynchpin of the army it's one of the best tools I have for generating pressure and resilience. Ordinarily I'll be dropping a single 10-man Morph unit on someone every turn, because I don't have enough dice to pull off more than one 3-charge Summons plus all the debuffs/ witchfires I want to use. Worst case scenario, the unit arrives in a bad place and either goes into Cult Ambush rotation or draws fire and gets killed. Best case it arrives and smashes half of your backfield straight out of reserve. With cheap Warp dice I can pull off two, maybe three such Summons every turn. The army was quite clearly not intended to do that, given how powerful that would be.

because your defense when I point out how easy it would be to kill that kind of warband setup was to say that the Genestealers would be fine - If you're taking 1500pts of genestealers and 500pts of Inquisition, and I kill all the Inquisition with an alpha-strike, you just lost a quarter of your army.

1500/ 350 was what I suggested. See what I said above about Telepathic Summons - you've killed my Warp batteries, which give my Summons more reliability than they'd normally have. That's all they do. I can live without the extra Warp Charges, and if my experience of trying to run suck-ass IG Allies alongside my GSC has taught me anything, it's that 1500pts of Genestealer Cults can kill 1850pts of almost anything.

Changing the rules to limit the number of available Detachments like ITC does isn't going to fix the balance, it's just going to shift the meta towards codexes that have more options.

That was true in 5th Edition. It's not true in 7th thanks to the new Allies rules.

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

And you're completely missing my point - The lists you mentioned are *terrible*.

You're missing mine too. Tell me they're terrible and I can go away and fix them using whatever Codex I have to hand. Maybe throw a Gorepack in there, a Gladius, whatever. Anything goes when you're thinking without comp. It's why a tactica is worthless without any kind of context - I just have too many options.

These GSC synergies are a case in point.

Okay, fine. Go find actually competitive options for them - That's what this forum is for. This particular thread is asking 'How can we use Codex: Imperial Agents competitively'. If you have an idea that's actually competitive, it can be shared and discussed. Spamming random lists with maxed-out spam that don't actually work very well isn't discussing tactics.

Never mind whether or not they're fluffy or fun to play against, they're just not going to win games against a competent opponent.

I've won plenty of ITC/ ETC sceanrio games with my GSC against competent opponents running GT-trimmed lists with "OP" units in them. I'd probably win more if I could take Coteaz, because he protects me from Seizes and allows me to be more aggressive when going first. That's the kind of nonsense you abet with CTA Allies - GSC gain a hell of a lot of power from Coteaz, and they clearly weren't meant to have it. They gain a lot more from cheap, expendable Warp Charges too.

Yeah, Coteaz is pretty great, but in an 1850 points list, he's also a good chunk of your list - About 6%, and since he's not going to be doing anything after the game starts, that's a perfectly reasonable investment. You spend 100 points, and in exchange you get a first turn that's more reliable. That's a good tactic. It's not 'OP', though, by any stretch of the word - He makes you about 16% more likely to get first turn, that's all.

If your point with the Genestealers+Warband was that the Warband was somehow going to make the genestealers work better, you completely missed the mark

The whole GSC schtick is "gak everywhere, kill it all or die", and while Telepathic Summons isn't a lynchpin of the army it's one of the best tools I have for generating pressure and resilience. Ordinarily I'll be dropping a single 10-man Morph unit on someone every turn, because I don't have enough dice to pull off more than one 3-charge Summons plus all the debuffs/ witchfires I want to use. Worst case scenario, the unit arrives in a bad place and either goes into Cult Ambush rotation or draws fire and gets killed. Best case it arrives and smashes half of your backfield straight out of reserve. With cheap Warp dice I can pull off two, maybe three such Summons every turn. The army was quite clearly not intended to do that, given how powerful that would be.

Sure. That sounds like a good tactic. But spending 20% of your army on multiplying the effectiveness of the other 80% isn't 'OP', it's tactics - That's what units like Astra Telepathica were designed to do. And since you're not really maximizing their potential, since they're pretty fragile and take up the aforementioned 20% of your army, I simply do not see what's supposed to be so game breaking or overpowered about it. (Also: Good luck in a Killpoints game, or a game against KDK, or a Maelstrom game where they get cards that require them to kill lots of units. Your batteries give off 11 killpoints.)

because your defense when I point out how easy it would be to kill that kind of warband setup was to say that the Genestealers would be fine - If you're taking 1500pts of genestealers and 500pts of Inquisition, and I kill all the Inquisition with an alpha-strike, you just lost a quarter of your army.

1500/ 350 was what I suggested. See what I said above about Telepathic Summons - you've killed my Warp batteries, which give my Summons more reliability than they'd normally have. That's all they do. I can live without the extra Warp Charges, and if my experience of trying to run suck-ass IG Allies alongside my GSC has taught me anything, it's that 1500pts of Genestealer Cults can kill 1850pts of almost anything.

No, it wasn't. 11 Astropaths and Coteaz is 375 points. I rounded up because I assumed you'd be taking a Henchmen unit to act as body shields. And, again - You're spending 20% of your army to increase one aspect of the remaining 80%. Potentially getting 2-3 extra summons is nice, sure, but for the same amount of points, couldn't you just buy more units from the getgo?

Changing the rules to limit the number of available Detachments like ITC does isn't going to fix the balance, it's just going to shift the meta towards codexes that have more options.

That was true in 5th Edition. It's not true in 7th thanks to the new Allies rules.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, fine. Go find actually competitive options for them - That's what this forum is for. This particular thread is asking 'How can we use Codex: Imperial Agents competitively'. If you have an idea that's actually competitive, it can be shared and discussed.

You want "competitive" without the competitive context though. Show me a single major competitive event with no comp and I'll concede the point. If there's none, then what you're looking for here are power combos you can use at the FLGS, which seems pointless to me.

Yeah, Coteaz is pretty great, but in an 1850 points list, he's also a good chunk of your list - About 6%, and since he's not going to be doing anything after the game starts, that's a perfectly reasonable investment. You spend 100 points, and in exchange you get a first turn that's more reliable. That's a good tactic. It's not 'OP', though, by any stretch of the word - He makes you about 16% more likely to get first turn, that's all.

The first turn thing is a minor benefit. The real reason you want him in a GSC army is the other thing - most opponents go from 1/6 chance to Seize on you to 1/36 chance. I'd pay 100pts to take that utility in my GSC army, because if I am going first against non-Harlequins armies it means I can drop everything right on top of my opponent and know there's nothing he can do to stop it all hitting him on turn one. As it stands you can do that, but you risk getting Seized on and smushed. Coteaz obviates that risk - 16% chance drops to 3%. Broken? Maybe not, but it makes the army far more powerful than it was ever intended to be.

Besides that, he also gives you another 2 Warp Charges. That's handy too.

The other thing is a different story altogether.

Sure. That sounds like a good tactic. But spending 20% of your army on multiplying the effectiveness of the other 80% isn't 'OP', it's tactics

You think so?

Five ML2 GSC psykers I can fit in a 1500pt army, one of whom is generating a third spare power. They give me ten WC dice and take 11 powers total. The 11-Astropath blob with Coteaz gives me another 13. Seven dice is almost always enough to land a 3-WC power, and I can do that three times per phase with the pool I've got. Worst case scenario I roll no Summons and spend the game casting Psychic Stimulus and Might from Beyond on my Genestealers and Claw-Morphs every turn, while also hitting the opponent with Psionic Blast, Mind Control, Mass Hypnosis, etc etc. If I roll one Summons I take 7 dice, drop 20 models on the table, and do most of that other stuff too. Two Summons and I do less psyking but drop 40 models on the table every turn. Three Summons and I do no psyking but drop 60 models on the table every turn. All of these models get their upgrades free, so all the Seismic Cannons, Webbers, Grenade Launchers and Flamers of the universe are mine for nothing.

This is not just a little increase in the power of a tool. This is broken. Bear in mind too that I'm starting the game with 120 GSC models in 20 units, so your Culexus isn't going to get anywhere near any of my psykers for a good long while, assuming he doesn't get rinsed off the board by Autoguns. It's broken. You can't give Genestealer Cults this utility and pretend it's balanced. Same thing with Tzeentch Daemons - their Heralds and Monsters can Summon every turn at the same time as their Horrors are all shooting. I've never seen a game where all the Horrors are shooting every turn, because it's not supposed to happen.

The only thing that keeps it from being utterly game-breaking is the fact very few people will have enough models to actually pull it off - and that's just "comp by default".

Also: Good luck in a Killpoints game, or a game against KDK, or a Maelstrom game where they get cards that require them to kill lots of units. Your batteries give off 11 killpoints.)

So 37 KP in total. The 11 in the blob are easy meat, but you'll never get near enough to assault them, which means you're shooting the blob in preference to shooting my GSC units. That's a bad idea. The GSC units will shred you if you do that. You might kill enough to summon a Bloodthirster or whatever, but the GSC units will shred that too. They shred everything. So you shoot them instead, leaving my Warp Charges unmolested, and I drop 40-60 models on you in my psychic phase which proceed to shred you.

It's broken. You need comp to prevent this nonsense.

No, it wasn't. 11 Astropaths and Coteaz is 375 points. I rounded up because I assumed you'd be taking a Henchmen unit to act as body shields. And, again - You're spending 20% of your army to increase one aspect of the remaining 80%. Potentially getting 2-3 extra summons is nice, sure, but for the same amount of points, couldn't you just buy more units from the getgo?

Alright, so 375pts it is then, although you could drop that extra Astropath and the point would still stand. I could spend that 350pts on other stuff, but it wouldn't bag me 100-300 extra models plus special weapons and Sergeant upgrades. It's the stuff you get for free that makes Telepathic Summons so useful, and guaranteed Summons so broken.

Changing the rules to limit the number of available Detachments like ITC does isn't going to fix the balance, it's just going to shift the meta towards codexes that have more options.

That was true in 5th Edition. It's not true in 7th thanks to the new Allies rules.

Uh... What? 5th edition didn't have Detachments

Exactly. Comping in 5th Edition was done purely to appease whiny Ork players, and served only to gimp certain Codexes by limiting the power of armies you could build from them. None of the Codexes were broken in 5th, except the ones that were so bad they were unplayable. Nowadays you need comp to prevent the stupid CTA Allies power combos that are available, because those allow for armies that can break the game.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Outside of free access to Stormravens, I'm not to worried about it being badly exploited, though. (And even then, Stormravens aren't really OP enough to worry about that kind of...
Oh... Oh goodness. They can come in from reserve on turn 1, as long as you Deep Strike.)

IIRC Storm Ravens no longer have the Deep Strike special rule.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So I think some of these formations can be abused more than meets the eye, initially.

Take Daemonhunter Strike Force, for example. It's just 1 Troop OR 1 Fast Attack and 1 Optional Heavy Support. The book obviously wants you to think of Terminators, Interceptors and Dreadknights, but those aren't all you can take from the requirements.

Since the formation retains Faction: Grey Knights, we can use any Grey Knight units in those slots.

In Codex: Grey Knights, Rhinos, Razorbacks and Stormraven Gunships are Fast Attack units. Using this formation, you could just take a Stormraven completely tax free.

Purgation Squads, Land Raiders (plus Crusaders and Redeemers) are also Heavy Support. You could take any of those instead of the Dreadknight.

Strike Squads can also be taken in the troop slot if you just want a minimal cost there.

Notably, the Adepta Sororitas Ministorum Delegation prohibits this and says it must be a Priest. The Psykana Division doesn't, however and says any HQ of the Astra Telepathica can be taken. Sadly, I don't know enough about them to know if they have any other HQ's.

Anyway, not saying we'll find anything super useful, but it is an avenue I haven't seen anyone exploring yet.

That's a really good point, actually. I double checked the wording, and you're right - Barring any extra FAQs, the formations are not limited to the units presented in the book.
There aren't any other models with the Astra Telepathica faction that I know of, so that can't be broken, and Deathwatch only have one Troops choice, so their option can't be broken.
Also, I checked - For the Mechanicus, it specifically notes that the HQ has to be an Enginseer, and the Elites has to be a unit of Servitors. So I think this was an intentional (If bizzare) design choice.

Outside of free access to Stormravens, I'm not to worried about it being badly exploited, though. (And even then, Stormravens aren't really OP enough to worry about that kind of...
Oh... Oh goodness. They can come in from reserve on turn 1, as long as you Deep Strike.)

Well, here's where it can get more fun. Like I said, not sure good, but still fun. Now you can do a full Mechanical Grey Knight force. Take Storm Ravens as your 'tax' (or Rhazors) and then Land Raiders as Heavies. Spam this detachment till you run out of points.

On a more serious note, the Storm Raven can take Locator Beacons. Getting a locator Raven in by turn 1 makes it a lot easier to Deep Strike the rest of your army in successfully. This combos with your Astropath's who will help ensure your forces actually do arrive on Turn 2. So there's a nice bit there. You can load a Purgation squad in the Raven if you're crazy too (or just take a Dreadknight). The Liber Heresius would also let you Scout the Raven, I think?

This isn't formation abuse, but if you're running a 3 Knight Baronnial Court or Tripartite Lance, you can fairly easily fit in 1 or 2 Enginseer Congregations to give a better version of It Will Not Die to your Knights. The Servitors can also support with plasma bombardment from ruins.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Outside of free access to Stormravens, I'm not to worried about it being badly exploited, though. (And even then, Stormravens aren't really OP enough to worry about that kind of...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Oh... Oh goodness. They can come in from reserve on turn 1, as long as you Deep Strike.)

IIRC Storm Ravens no longer have the Deep Strike special rule.

Had to double check but confirmed. Alas :(

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, fine. Go find actually competitive options for them - That's what this forum is for. This particular thread is asking 'How can we use Codex: Imperial Agents competitively'. If you have an idea that's actually competitive, it can be shared and discussed.

You want "competitive" without the competitive context though. Show me a single major competitive event with no comp and I'll concede the point. If there's none, then what you're looking for here are power combos you can use at the FLGS, which seems pointless to me.

I think Warzone: Atlanta had really loose composition rules.

Audustum wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So I think some of these formations can be abused more than meets the eye, initially.

Take Daemonhunter Strike Force, for example. It's just 1 Troop OR 1 Fast Attack and 1 Optional Heavy Support. The book obviously wants you to think of Terminators, Interceptors and Dreadknights, but those aren't all you can take from the requirements.

Since the formation retains Faction: Grey Knights, we can use any Grey Knight units in those slots.

In Codex: Grey Knights, Rhinos, Razorbacks and Stormraven Gunships are Fast Attack units. Using this formation, you could just take a Stormraven completely tax free.

Purgation Squads, Land Raiders (plus Crusaders and Redeemers) are also Heavy Support. You could take any of those instead of the Dreadknight.

Strike Squads can also be taken in the troop slot if you just want a minimal cost there.

Notably, the Adepta Sororitas Ministorum Delegation prohibits this and says it must be a Priest. The Psykana Division doesn't, however and says any HQ of the Astra Telepathica can be taken. Sadly, I don't know enough about them to know if they have any other HQ's.

Anyway, not saying we'll find anything super useful, but it is an avenue I haven't seen anyone exploring yet.

That's a really good point, actually. I double checked the wording, and you're right - Barring any extra FAQs, the formations are not limited to the units presented in the book.
There aren't any other models with the Astra Telepathica faction that I know of, so that can't be broken, and Deathwatch only have one Troops choice, so their option can't be broken.
Also, I checked - For the Mechanicus, it specifically notes that the HQ has to be an Enginseer, and the Elites has to be a unit of Servitors. So I think this was an intentional (If bizzare) design choice.

Outside of free access to Stormravens, I'm not to worried about it being badly exploited, though. (And even then, Stormravens aren't really OP enough to worry about that kind of...
Oh... Oh goodness. They can come in from reserve on turn 1, as long as you Deep Strike.)

Well, here's where it can get more fun. Like I said, not sure good, but still fun. Now you can do a full Mechanical Grey Knight force. Take Storm Ravens as your 'tax' (or Rhazors) and then Land Raiders as Heavies. Spam this detachment till you run out of points.

On a more serious note, the Storm Raven can take Locator Beacons. Getting a locator Raven in by turn 1 makes it a lot easier to Deep Strike the rest of your army in successfully. This combos with your Astropath's who will help ensure your forces actually do arrive on Turn 2. So there's a nice bit there. You can load a Purgation squad in the Raven if you're crazy too (or just take a Dreadknight). The Liber Heresius would also let you Scout the Raven, I think?

This isn't formation abuse, but if you're running a 3 Knight Baronnial Court or Tripartite Lance, you can fairly easily fit in 1 or 2 Enginseer Congregations to give a better version of It Will Not Die to your Knights. The Servitors can also support with plasma bombardment from ruins.

In regards to your Locator Beacon musings... Those both actually sound like fairly good ideas. Spending a Land Raider's worth of points to get reliable Deep Strike for your army, and using the available Psykers to get reliable reserves, both seem like good Synergy tactics. Liber Heresius won't let you scout, though, because the Inquisitor holding it only gives the buffs to his unit unless I'm remembering very poorly, and he can't deploy in a Stormraven. (Also, you Scout prior to turn 1.)

I dunno how good the Enginseer congregations are. You're spending 80 points to get an automatic Hull Point every turn, but Plasma Cannons on the Servitors mean that the Servitors aren't giving a +1, adding more cost, and it's a really vulnerable unit all in all.

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, fine. Go find actually competitive options for them - That's what this forum is for. This particular thread is asking 'How can we use Codex: Imperial Agents competitively'. If you have an idea that's actually competitive, it can be shared and discussed.

You want "competitive" without the competitive context though. Show me a single major competitive event with no comp and I'll concede the point. If there's none, then what you're looking for here are power combos you can use at the FLGS, which seems pointless to me.

I think Warzone: Atlanta had really loose composition rules.

Confirmed, I looked them up. 1850, battle-forged, only one Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature/Super Heavy Fortification. (An exception for Knights, who could take a single detachment, meaning you could potentially bring 5 if you really wanted to.) Even 30k was allowed, with the addendum that you couldn't mix-and-match detachment rules from 30k and 40k. That's it.

Pardon the intrusion but is it not that if you combine models from different factions into the same unit, eg an inquisitor in a grey knight squad, that the unit becomes both factions.

A recent example is that of the deathwatches beacon Angelis allowing you to deepstrike a unit but only if it is a deathwatch unit. You would then attatch a librarian holding this relic to any squad and as it gained the deathwatch faction the whole unit would be able to deepstrike.

Would it not work in a similar fashion? The inquisitor would now have the grey knight factions, allowing him to embark on a landraider because that is his faction now?