Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Did it really take a judge's ruling for people to realize dogs are not humans?

 Damikeis wrote:
Did it really take a judge's ruling for people to realize dogs are not humans?

No.

This made news precisely because it was so outlandish.

Likely just this particular couple are wacked out of their gourd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
But really, it's possible to say, "Human rules are for humans, not for other species, thus we do not treat other species the same way we do humans" and not also imply, "Non-human species are inferior."

It's possible, but why would I want to do it? A cockroach is inferior to me, and I don't feel any need to believe otherwise.

I find it interesting that you believe your superior to a cockroach. What is it about you that makes you superior exactly? Is it your ability to determine that you are not contributing anymore to the world than a cockroach is?

Personally, I'm very fond of my ability to recognize that due to the cycle of life, literally everything I have ever eaten was poop and/or a rotting corpse many millions of times over throughout Earth's existence.

There is a difference between self-aware and sentient. Dogs are sentient. They are not self-aware.

How do you know? Have you asked?

Yes, telepathically. And telepathically, the dog replied. As it turns out, dogs don't think in language, only pictures and smells, yet I was able to ask if it was self aware, and it replied with images and smells of food in a bowl.

And then running in a field, with all the wonderful smells.

And then it showed me a squirrel taunting it from a tree.

But it did not understand self awareness, no matter how many times I tried to communicate images and smells of myself.

Now you have proof. Enjoy your day.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Yes, telepathically. And telepathically, the dog replied. As it turns out, dogs don't think in language, only pictures and smells, yet I was able to ask if it was self aware, and it replied with images and smells of food in a bowl.

And then running in a field, with all the wonderful smells.

And then it showed me a squirrel taunting it from a tree.

But it did not understand self awareness, no matter how many times I tried to communicate images and smells of myself.

Now you have proof. Enjoy your day.

Actually, we're starting to develop mind-to-mind communication that could one day become the ability for a human and non-human to know what each other are thinking.

I'm interested to find out what our pets are ACTUALLY thinking.

Oh, also, you guys know that housecats believe that we're their property/servants, right? When they brush up against a human's legs, we see it as a sign of affection, but they're actually just saying, "This human is mine."

So, uh, two species mutually consider each other their personal property without really realizing the other has a difference of opinion on who owns who.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Yes, telepathically. And telepathically, the dog replied. As it turns out, dogs don't think in language, only pictures and smells, yet I was able to ask if it was self aware, and it replied with images and smells of food in a bowl.

And then running in a field, with all the wonderful smells.

And then it showed me a squirrel taunting it from a tree.

But it did not understand self awareness, no matter how many times I tried to communicate images and smells of myself.

Now you have proof. Enjoy your day.

That was ghost TBone jamming your communication with his own ghost mind control.
You probably also saw a dishwasher and had a compelling need to bark at it.

 Frazzled wrote:
That was ghost TBone jamming your communication with his own ghost mind control.
You probably also saw a dishwasher and had a compelling need to bark at it.

You guys both know that humans don't have an intrinsic telepathic ability, right?

I mean, you're so sure what dogs are thinking about, but since we've never really had the ability to mind-read, can you actually know what they're thinking, when you can't even prove that your fellow human beings have independent thought rather than operating on base instinct, and you only assume it because they are also humans?

I mean, there are even good reasons to doubt that humans actually have free will instead of simply operating on the natural instincts of one of the most powerful and complicated brains on Earth. It's possible that humans have no ability to choose to do anything, instead that we only act on our base instincts interacting with our relatively vast knowledge and potent intellect.

You guys both know that humans don't have an intrinsic telepathic ability, right?

TBone says bark bark barkbark grrrbark BARK BARK

(translation: this person apparently has no intrinsic sense of humor. Clearly he needs to SQUIRREL!)

 Frazzled wrote:

You guys both know that humans don't have an intrinsic telepathic ability, right?

TBone says bark bark barkbark grrrbark BARK BARK

(translation: this person apparently has no intrinsic sense of humor. Clearly he needs to SQUIRREL!)

Ever asked a fellow human to try ESP and tell them to guess what you're thinking while you sit right in front of them?

Ever notice how often they get it wrong because you can be thinking about literally anything and a person staring you right in the face from a few feet away has zero clue what thoughts are actually going through your mind?

Why are we so sure we have a firm grasp on what animals are thinking when we don't even share a common language to play the "What am I thinking?" game?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
That was ghost TBone jamming your communication with his own ghost mind control.
You probably also saw a dishwasher and had a compelling need to bark at it.

You guys both know that humans don't have an intrinsic telepathic ability, right?

I mean, you're so sure what dogs are thinking about, but since we've never really had the ability to mind-read, can you actually know what they're thinking, when you can't even prove that your fellow human beings have independent thought rather than operating on base instinct, and you only assume it because they are also humans?

I mean, there are even good reasons to doubt that humans actually have free will instead of simply operating on the natural instincts of one of the most powerful and complicated brains on Earth. It's possible that humans have no ability to choose to do anything, instead that we only act on our base instincts interacting with our relatively vast knowledge and potent intellect.

Oh no? You're thinking about posting a response, and then wondering whether or not it will be immediately turned back upon you if you do so, and now you're wondering if I can actually read your mind. And now you're trying to think of something that you think I wouldn't think of, but since I can read your mind, that wont work, so now you're trying to "blank" your mind... Need I continue?

The point is, I can telepathically communicate with lesser animals, and thus I am an expert on whether or not they're self aware, so my word is like that onto gods'. Now you're thinking I'm just being asinine, but it's true. I can also, by extension, tell you that humans are capable of being self aware, but not all of them are.

And yes, you remembered to clear your browser history.

So dogs, as property under the law, need not have legally binding custody agreements as children do. And since they aren't aware of themselves, they note that pack members are missing and then move on with their day. Unless that pack member returns, and then it's happy days and fields of wild flowers, with pollen in the air and the feel of wind on your nose, and little rabbits lazily wandering about, just waiting to be eaten.

The owners just needed to work something out in their divorce settlement. The dogs didn't need special legal protection to ensure that puppy support was paid, or anything like that. Done.

 greatbigtree wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
That was ghost TBone jamming your communication with his own ghost mind control.
You probably also saw a dishwasher and had a compelling need to bark at it.

You guys both know that humans don't have an intrinsic telepathic ability, right?

I mean, you're so sure what dogs are thinking about, but since we've never really had the ability to mind-read, can you actually know what they're thinking, when you can't even prove that your fellow human beings have independent thought rather than operating on base instinct, and you only assume it because they are also humans?

I mean, there are even good reasons to doubt that humans actually have free will instead of simply operating on the natural instincts of one of the most powerful and complicated brains on Earth. It's possible that humans have no ability to choose to do anything, instead that we only act on our base instincts interacting with our relatively vast knowledge and potent intellect.

Oh no? You're thinking about posting a response, and then wondering whether or not it will be immediately turned back upon you if you do so, and now you're wondering if I can actually read your mind. And now you're trying to think of something that you think I wouldn't think of, but since I can read your mind, that wont work, so now you're trying to "blank" your mind... Need I continue?

The point is, I can telepathically communicate with lesser animals, and thus I am an expert on whether or not they're self aware, so my word is like that onto gods'. Now you're thinking I'm just being asinine, but it's true. I can also, by extension, tell you that humans are capable of being self aware, but not all of them are.

And yes, you remembered to clear your browser history.

So dogs, as property under the law, need not have legally binding custody agreements as children do. And since they aren't aware of themselves, they note that pack members are missing and then move on with their day. Unless that pack member returns, and then it's happy days and fields of wild flowers, with pollen in the air and the feel of wind on your nose, and little rabbits lazily wandering about, just waiting to be eaten.

The owners just needed to work something out in their divorce settlement. The dogs didn't need special legal protection to ensure that puppy support was paid, or anything like that. Done.

Actually I was remembering the time when I was delusional and believed people might be reading my thoughts telepathically. Eventually I then wondered what the hell a PIN would do to protect your money, or what a password would even be useful for, and realized humans are not telepathic.

Also, my dog knows when my mom is late coming home from work. He goes to the front window when she's an hour or so late, and whines and keeps an eye out for her until she comes home. Reminds me of when I was a little kid, my dad was late coming home from work one day, and I watched out the front window feeling sad, expecting every car that went by to be him. Eventually he arrived and I was really happy.

Of course, dogs cannot be equal citizens in human society. At best, they are like young children, and naturally we don't let children vote or make important decisions, trusting instead in their parents to make decisions for them.

Also, the reason this story made the news was because it was probably the first time anyone tried to treat a dog as a human child under the law, and if you read what the judge said, basically he confirmed that human laws are for humans.

My point about not treating non-humans as lesser life forms has nothing to do with any idea of giving them equal citizenship. I'd liken it to having different sovereign human nations - we consider humans in other countries to be our equals, but we put our interests above theirs, and we don't expect them to abide by the same laws we do. We don't expect an American citizen to abide by Canadian laws most of the time. Similarly, human laws are for humans, and we simply have rules for how we treat other animals. I don't expect or want non-humans to become fellow citizens, the most I'd want out of treating non-humans as equals is that we abandon cruel treatment of animals like factory farming and that nonsense PETA does because they believe that animals are better off dead than as pets. Treating a companion animal as a companion instead of a fellow citizen is just fine, and dogs seem to think the same about us - they don't treat us exactly the same as they would a fellow dog. I wouldn't suggest not killing animals for food, because humans are omnivores and we evolved to eat meat, and in many places meat is a necessary resource for keeping people alive.

Basically, just don't be a dick to animals because you believe you're better than them, and I'm happy.

My point about not treating non-humans as lesser life forms has nothing to do with any idea of giving them equal citizenship.

and

Basically, just don't be a dick to animals because you believe you're better than them, and I'm happy.

Good words.

I'm on board with treating animals with respect, and not being cruel to them. When slain for food, I hope that they're slain as quickly and humanely as possible. I hope that labour animals aren't worked to death, and given at least some time for rest / recreation.

I hope that pets are treated well, and like a family member.

I don't want, nor will I ever hope, to see animals treated as the equals of humans.

Be well, and treat animals nicely... just not like children, for legal purposes.

I don't want, nor will I ever hope, to see animals treated as the equals of humans.

I agree, why insult them by lessening their status to mere humans.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'm on board with treating animals with respect, and not being cruel to them. When slain for food, I hope that they're slain as quickly and humanely as possible. I hope that labour animals aren't worked to death, and given at least some time for rest / recreation.

I hope that pets are treated well, and like a family member.

I don't want, nor will I ever hope, to see animals treated as the equals of humans.

Be well, and treat animals nicely... just not like children, for legal purposes.

Treating fellow life forms as equals doesn't mean treating them equally under the law though. It's basically just not presuming that humans are anything special enough to be considered a superior life form, but you can still recognize and accept that species are different enough from each other that they're treated differently in a lot of ways.

It's not an all-or-nothing thing, is what I'm saying. Species can be different without being inherently superior or inferior.

And yes, I also think it's absurd that anyone would ask for a dog to be treated like a human child in a court of law, and I think the judge did the right thing by keeping calm and just clarifying that human laws are mostly for humans, and a dog's relationship with their human owners is not equivalent to a human child's relationship with their parents.

 Pouncey wrote:
It's not an all-or-nothing thing, is what I'm saying. Species can be different without being inherently superior or inferior.

I don't know. All my parent's cats do is lounge in the sun, poop in a sand box, and meow for food, and they get all those things at no cost to themselves.

Ask me we've been completely outsmarted by the little bastards

 LordofHats wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
It's not an all-or-nothing thing, is what I'm saying. Species can be different without being inherently superior or inferior.

I don't know. All my parent's cats do is lounge in the sun, poop in a sand box, and meow for food, and they get all those things at no cost to themselves.

Ask me we've been completely outsmarted by the little bastards

Cats are incredibly arrogant, yes. And they are highly-skilled at training humans. They're also psychopaths, as they kill for the fun of it, not just for food.

They're much like humans, in fact.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Yes, telepathically. And telepathically, the dog replied. As it turns out, dogs don't think in language, only pictures and smells, yet I was able to ask if it was self aware, and it replied with images and smells of food in a bowl.

And then running in a field, with all the wonderful smells.

And then it showed me a squirrel taunting it from a tree.

But it did not understand self awareness, no matter how many times I tried to communicate images and smells of myself.

Now you have proof. Enjoy your day.

Self-awareness is an empty value anyways. What's the point of discriminating between creatures that exhibit complex self-preservation strategies, but don't know how to solve the laser-pointer in face of a mirror riddle? All this does is discriminate between creatures that can solve one specific cognitive riddle (where do I put my paw to touch this red dot?). It tells nothing of the depth and complexities of the personality involved in solving the riddle.

Morality is in the same situation. We don't enact laws because we are moral individuals. Amoral beings would still be expected to follow the law. When we judge someone inapt, it is not because they are morally lacking, but because they are rationally lacking to the point where they can't be expected to act consequentially.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Yes, telepathically. And telepathically, the dog replied. As it turns out, dogs don't think in language, only pictures and smells, yet I was able to ask if it was self aware, and it replied with images and smells of food in a bowl.

And then running in a field, with all the wonderful smells.

And then it showed me a squirrel taunting it from a tree.

But it did not understand self awareness, no matter how many times I tried to communicate images and smells of myself.

Now you have proof. Enjoy your day.

Self-awareness is an empty value anyways. What's the point of discriminating between creatures that exhibit complex self-preservation strategies, but don't know how to solve the laser-pointer in face of a mirror riddle? All this does is discriminate between creatures that can solve one specific cognitive riddle (where do I put my paw to touch this red dot?). It tells nothing of the depth and complexities of the personality involved in solving the riddle.

Morality is in the same situation. We don't enact laws because we are moral individuals. Amoral beings would still be expected to follow the law. When we judge someone inapt, it is not because they are morally lacking, but because they are rationally lacking to the point where they can't be expected to act consequentially.

Also, herd mentality can be a serious issue with humans.

Also, it occurs to me that I have no idea how to solve a Rubik's Cube, though some humans find it a simple task because they understand the strategies needed to solve it. I would not react well to a fellow human condescending to me because I can't solve a Rubik's Cube, much less feeling justified in treating me as though I were an inferior life form for that inability.

Given how widely individual human intellects vary, our smartest humans and our dumbest humans are likely further apart than an average human and an average dog are.

Everyone knows the only animals that thus should've even have been considered for are Cats.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Everyone knows the only animals that thus should've even have been considered for are Cats.

The Chairman agrees.

A dark presence surely has entered our thread...

 Frazzled wrote:
A dark presence surely has entered our thread...

Well, admittedly, humans aren't exactly stupid.

We looked at our bodies, saw they were incapable of flight, but we wanted to fly anyways, so we learned about physics and devised devices that let us fly and/or glide as we see fit.

Eventually we got bored with that idea and decided to see if we could travel to our moon through roughly a light-second of vacuum.

Eventually we got bored with that idea after we did it a bunch of times. Now we're entertaining the idea of sending human volunteers to live on a planet completely barren of life in an environment completely inhospitable to our existence.

All within the past century or so.

I was talking about Chairman Meow. You're as serious as a heart attack aren't you. As the immortal bard once said: lighten up Francis."

 Frazzled wrote:
I was talking about Chairman Meow. You're as serious as a heart attack aren't you. As the immortal bard once said: lighten up Francis."

I'm sorry, it wasn't intended as a response to you. I don't even remember why I pushed Quote instead of doing a general reply.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Everyone knows the only animals that thus should've even have been considered for are Cats.

The Chairman agrees.

Fantastic. That's going on the office wall.

 Frazzled wrote:
A dark presence surely has entered our thread...

This is why you and I will never see eye to eye Frazz

There's just no reconciliation between dog lovers and cat people

 LordofHats wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
A dark presence surely has entered our thread...

This is why you and I will never see eye to eye Frazz

There's just no reconciliation between dog lovers and cat people

"There can be peace between our two worlds."
"NO...PEACE..."

There can be peace as long as the dog knows his place... grasshopper.


But yeah, if animals in general were "human" I would have been jailed so many times for involuntary "manslaughter" running over stray "humans" with my truck at night on country roads.
These accidents have gained the approval of my "overlords":
Phineas (the InPhinerator, or "Meow-ic") and Ferb (the Ferbinator or "Squeak").
I am outnumbered and have no choice but to take their side along with the steadily diminishing guppies.

The thing about cats and dogs is dogs know their place in society.