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Hey All,

I've been playing around with lists for a while for my different Order Factions. One thing I'm not set on is if it's better to go with a few larger squads (20-30+) or go with smaller 10 man squads with a variety. For example; I do have a small Empire Lot I've been planning on cleaning up, but most squads won't be over 10 models (Mainly because I'm just barely out of the 20 model range).

Are smaller squads seemingly more effective, or is it best to go with larger classical fantasy bricks?

it's an interesting question, I would say on the whole big units are much more preferable but there will always be exceptions. The reasons big units are better is because:

1. Your buffs affect more models - especially true with the rule of one and mystic shield and Inspiring Presence.
2. You can activate them as one in combat, rather than piecemeal and having the opponent alternate.
3. The unit will likely be better in larger numbers (better Bravery, and maybe better stats).
4. It reduces deployment drops making the first turn choice more likely to be yours.

So if you had 60 Freeguild Guard, the weakest set up would definitely be 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10.

But I would not run them 20 - 20 - 20 either, if we assume you need 3 for your Battleline the best would be 40 - 10 - 10 in my opinion.

How come? Well all those reasons listed above are going to be most effective on that unit of 40. Especially Inspiring Presence. The other 2 units of 10 are simply speed bumps. If you are playing Border War then they run up the flanks to score either side turn 1 - for other scenarios they get in the way as much as possible and cause other units to waste time killing a 80 point unit. That big block of 40 holds your line and keeps your objectives safe.

 Bottle wrote:
it's an interesting question, I would say on the whole big units are much more preferable but there will always be exceptions. The reasons big units are better is because:

1. Your buffs affect more models - especially true with the rule of one and mystic shield and Inspiring Presence.
2. You can activate them as one in combat, rather than piecemeal and having the opponent alternate.
3. The unit will likely be better in larger numbers (better Bravery, and maybe better stats).
4. It reduces deployment drops making the first turn choice more likely to be yours.

So if you had 60 Freeguild Guard, the weakest set up would definitely be 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10.

But I would not run them 20 - 20 - 20 either, if we assume you need 3 for your Battleline the best would be 40 - 10 - 10 in my opinion.

How come? Well all those reasons listed above are going to be most effective on that unit of 40. Especially Inspiring Presence. The other 2 units of 10 are simply speed bumps. If you are playing Border War then they run up the flanks to score either side turn 1 - for other scenarios they get in the way as much as possible and cause other units to waste time killing a 80 point unit. That big block of 40 holds your line and keeps your objectives safe.

Nail on the head here for lighter Battleline units. Of course more elite armies like whatever Ogres are called now and Stormcast will make exceptions, but generally speaking Bottle's got it.

Some disadvantages would be:

i. Less mobility to capture multiple objectives, etc.

ii. Having the whole unit stuck in the same combat

iii. Fewer "free" leaders with slightly upgraded stats

iv. Takes more hits from abilities that affect every model in a unit

 KiloFiX wrote:
Some disadvantages would be:

i. Less mobility to capture multiple objectives, etc.

ii. Having the whole unit stuck in the same combat

iii. Fewer "free" leaders with slightly upgraded stats

iv. Takes more hits from abilities that affect every model in a unit

Very true as well. So I suppose it's just deciding how your faction treats squad size and the purpose you have for it.

Well, how much would it affect unit size if you were running say Lion Rangers instead of Spearmen? Since there is no unit size benefit of the Lion Rangers, am I handicapping myself running them in groups of ten?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Well, how much would it affect unit size if you were running say Lion Rangers instead of Spearmen? Since there is no unit size benefit of the Lion Rangers, am I handicapping myself running them in groups of ten?

If you're looking to go first/second or have the choice of first turn, then you'll be reducing your chances by increasing your drops. In combat you'll be allowing your opponent to alternate picking a unit with every 10 you activate, and in Escalation it may or may not affect your army arrivals in a negative way (although on the flip side Escalation can sit on the argument for smaller units in cases where having an extra unit will allow you to bring more on in the first two turns - for example if you have 12 units total you would bring them on 4 - 4 - 4 but if you broke up one of those units into two to give you 13 units you would bring them on 5 - 5 - 3)

Also on the flip side, many shooting abilities get better the larger the opponent's unit size (for example Duardin Cannons re-roll damage if the unit is 10 or more models).

For the OP asking about Freeguild units I absolutely recommend going big or keeping it minimum sized (which is why I recommended sixty deploy as 40 - 10 - 10). With your Lion Rangers, if you are creating any sort of buffing deathstar then you should max out the unit size too, or if you like to take advantage of Damned terrain, or feel the bravery boost is needed. Alternatively if none of those concern you and if you are on the tipping point to get a larger amount of units in Escalation then sure consider breaking up the unit).

Edit: I have only played against Lion Rangers once and found them underwhelming to be honest (180 points for 10 is quite expensive). But looking through the warscroll this unit would defiantly benefit being split up into at least 2 units so you can take advantage of that second banner in a close by unit giving them all Bravery 9! How many do you have? I would go for 2 units and then consider 3 if it tips you into the next band for Escalation. If you were planning to buff one unit, I would max out one and keep the other minimum size, if your not I would split them equally.

Lion rangers are overcosted. For the same price, an ironjaw brutes can get another wound, the same bravery in CQC (or more!) and better chances at charging. +1 to hit and not running and not running on a 4+ is nice and all but you'll have a lot less models running away if it takes twice the firepower to remove one. And this is without factoring WAAAGH! in that case the difference is more abysmal.


As for unit size, it varies a lot on a case by case basis. For example: brutes will benefit greatly from MSU because a) your guys can run just by taking a casualty, so le'ts not bunch them together so the enemy focuses fire and you end up losing about as many models in battleshock as you lost in shooting, b) Bosses are killer. I never cease to say it, but a brute boss with WAAAGH! is insane, with the potential to deal up to 13 wounds, wiht an average of 5-7 per round. I don't lie when I say that my brute boss has killed far more generals than my warboss. You want as many as possible, they do a lot of extra damage and are the only source of -2 rend outside heroes for the army.

Well, I currently have 20 Lion Rangers ready, but have access to more if I get them shipped over to me. It is really interesting to see just how much strategy goes into list building for a game with a rule set as brief of Age of Sigmar.

Makes me realize just how much I didn't notice when dismissed it as garbage when it released, and how much the General's Handbook has really changed the game.

From what I've played and tested there isn't a one rule fits all when it comes to max/min squads. Stuff like formation benefits, drops, synchronicity with the rest of the list....even taking these into account a different mission could make one superior to another (although I don't like tailoring lists to missions).

My main army that I've been working towards uses a mixture of both I play Devoted of Sigmar using 3 units of 30 flagellants and 3 units of ten

I think bottle's explanation works best, most of the time. 60 guys should be 40-10-10. That way you've got a big unit that you can throw spells, allegiance abilities and so on at, and the flexibility of having several units that can grab objectives.

It does of course depend on what's in your army though. If you've got command abilities (or other stuff) that affect all units within a radius, then often that can work with a bigger number of smaller units.

Finally, it might often be that building a "death star" is done with something other than your standard battleline units. If you're planning on having a big unit of greatswords for chopping people up you might want to have MSU crossbowmen as your battleline, for example.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Some disadvantages would be:

i. Less mobility to capture multiple objectives, etc.

ii. Having the whole unit stuck in the same combat

iii. Fewer "free" leaders with slightly upgraded stats

iv. Takes more hits from abilities that affect every model in a unit

Very true as well. So I suppose it's just deciding how your faction treats squad size and the purpose you have for it.

Shooters who are weak in melee Id run small. More camp bonus, more chance of enemy doing overkill in melee but even when shooting.
Units meant to tarpit or any unit with bonus for larger size I'd run larger preferably one size larger than where you get the bonus.

I generally prefer MSU. I think a lot of the "X bonus at 20+" models is a trap for Matched Play, because it typically means you need to go up to 30 to avoid just losing the bonus when you lose a single model, but then the huge block means it's harder to maneuver and pile in. So I almost always prefer going MSU, even with things like Crypt Ghouls.

Wayniac wrote:
I generally prefer MSU. I think a lot of the "X bonus at 20+" models is a trap for Matched Play, because it typically means you need to go up to 30 to avoid just losing the bonus when you lose a single model, but then the huge block means it's harder to maneuver and pile in. So I almost always prefer going MSU, even with things like Crypt Ghouls.

In my experience it's a lot case by case. Some ranged units will greatly benefit from having many models and you should do so, since in AoS you dont need to focus all your dice to one unit, so that's great. Those should be usually

For more elite units, you should MSU. Brutes are the most glaring example and there's the phoenix guard too a close second (the latter because they are pretty expensive and have a high model count for increase, so you'll pay a massive chunk of your army for a rather "squishy" model).