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 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Ok, lets dance. They don't decide who rules Turkey anymore than we do. And these people made a conscious decision to flee abroad instead of to government held territory. Who says they even want or can go back to an Assad controlled Syria.

So 100% of refugees are from Syria now?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You basically say that you don't care about the future of Syrians, either alive or dead.

You expect me to care for 8.000.000.000 Humans fate on earth?

Why don't you offer any other reply than silly claims anyone who disagrees doesn't care. Its a widespread practice. "Paint them as bad as possible", then their views don't count.
Doesn't work.

The burden to ensure world peace, safe the climate, provide jobs,education and welfare to every human on this planet is NOT upon Europe or Germany alone.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Look at the statistics, only 1 in every 10 displaced Syrians come to Europe, stop spreading this false information.

Where did I say x% of Syrians come to Europe?
Statistics exist to be used. Created to supply a view. There was 0 false info from me.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And what if no other country wants to take them either? Should we let them die because it is politically convenient to keep them out of 'our house'?

Nice attempt to blame someone for something that may or may not happen. Where is your proof that 100% of Syrians are going to die ( i mean we know humans are mortal so if you wait for 70+ years ...) ?

Don't you think its odd how many young males are "refugees" , the group which usually was doing the fighting in wars for millenia of human history, and so few families?
But maybe the families, the old and sick, are safe in Syria and just the possible recruts have to flee...

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Please you are German, you are the definition of permanent. The war that Hitler started ended with the forced displacement of millions of people in 1945, not in the least ethnic Germans to what territory Germany currently occupies. You didn't have any control over Poland or Czechoslovakia forcibly exiling Germans that Germany had to accept. Don't come at me with your 'we live here we know, our terms', you obviously don't realize less then 70 years ago you didn't even decide your own fate.

Really?
Maybe we don't even decide our fate right now?...who knows...
But, my point was a bit farther down in history. Seems you have to dig a bit deeper than 100 years. Are 1000 enough to find examples where the recrutement and settlement of people worked in europe?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The main refugees groups are from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, low %?? How safe are these?

Since no one is sent into active war zones, many people only at low % means the threat isn't as covering the surface of earth like some want to tell everyone.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
. Do you know what Assad has done to protesters and opponents?

Is Assad Immortal? No? so it won't be this way forever. But you seem to have no problem paying someone like Erdogan ( where no one knows what he may do to protesters and opponents )....

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Always a pleasure to see someone who can gain enjoyment out of human suffering, shine on you crazy diamond

Sure. have a too.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Exactly, we know what happens if we send these people back. So why are you questioning letting these Syrians in to be tried against this procedure?

We know? How many Syrians are real Syrians?
If you know who is who, why don't you support our poor serfs in their quest to identify and clear the status of people?
We can take the identified ones in then .

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Again you don't understand. Identifying the bad people isn't the problem. Saying to Syrians you can't come in because one or two of you might be bad is the problem. You do realize Syria is an active war zone and we are already deporting Syrians back to Turkey right? And danger as in that the regime will arrest and punish people for actions they should be punished for. For someone saying they know what political asylum is you don't seem to know the definition of danger in that context.

So identifiyng the bad isn't the problem when we have hundred thousands of people who are without papers, maybe not identified correctly and the fact people may try the dishonest route and count as syrians if this grants them a chance to stay?
People who got a message of please stay where you are aren't the ones with a good chance to get political asylum but people from the south of europe and the north of africa.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You can't remove those people if you don't know they are evil, are you trying to be dense?

And if I know they "are evil" ? If you know they plan an attack? Is this enough ?
Oh wait, we are going to observe them, for years, attempt to deport them, for years, and someday they are making their plans happen and politicans blame the police...

I think we had a law preventing one from fighting for foreign powers. Maybe we should reactive it and any type of loyality to known extremists nets you a safe and warm place to stay for a while...

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Imprison those who commit crimes and then either deport or observe them after they serve their sentence, you know like how we treat nationals who commit crimes?

So we wait for someone to drive a truck over some pedestrians and then we can deal with them. Awesome! Instead of using the gathered info and protecting the people we sit and wait.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Again we don't send Syrians back now because its a WAR ZONE!

But we can send them back someday.
And we get closer to that day if we stop the silly powergames of certain nations.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Based on the fact that so many are already here I'm going to say we can't. Just look at the USA and Mexican immigration, they don't really want it yet they still come, don't pretend this is simple.

I said we can. I didn't say its easy.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

If you say no he will personally help those refugees cross to make a point.

Good news for us! we can make him fail there.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Giving them nothing just gives him incentive to either force them to stay in Syria like he is doing or just shipping them on.

Can he afford to let everyone know who benefits from shipping them on ?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

We don't have anywhere near the funds to secure the entire EU border.

Depends.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Your UN comment is just so far outside of reality you might as well advocate sending them to Mars.

Mars is surely a safe place without war.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why do you think Germany and others pay Turkey so we can DEPORT THEM BACK THERE. If everything was so simple as mister Müller would want us to believe there wouldn't be a refugee rpoblem as we would have already tried this years ago.

Our shortsighted leaders never act soon enough. The problem was on the horizon and the Europeans did as much as they did to prevent every other crisis. Nothing.
Afterwards the people can pay to solve the problem because money makes problems go away. Or not.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

We are relatively rich enough to provide their children with an education and a job in the future. We have that future to offer even if you don't want to acknowledge or enable it, going back to Mexico and the USA.

So we pay for educating a lot of people so we can have them around without jobs.
I don't have to acknowledge false hopes. To offer a perspective you cannot deliver is , at least, unfair.
Several Countrys in europe already got lots of unemployed youth. You go tell them we are going to add some so we can have more.They will be happy. And celebrate your great idea.

Orlanth wrote:AlmightyWalrus, it is possible the idea for Germany is to repatriate the back to Syrians once Syria is stabilised.

Merkel has likely realised she has made a mistake taking so many, and has in the least realised she has inflamed Germany by dong so and this policy has become her legacy.
1.1 million Syrians is one hell of a lot, even for a nation like germany. When you add the problems with the rapes and lack of integration, and the flat fact that they have been infiltrated; it makes sense to keep the Syrians together so that Germany can say it was their idea all along to let the refugees in for humanitarian relief, feed and cloth them then send them home when the war if over, with a restructuring package.

The bold part: That's how it usually works. Asylum only means you get to stay temporarily in Germany (until the danger is over). Asylum is not the same as immigration. Of course, if you are here for a long enough time you can get permanent resident status like anybody else and the rules for that are the same as for anybody who wants to get that status (stuff like being able to sustain a live here and so on). I mentioned in another reply how this can be harsh on kids who get here as infants, grow up, and live here and then get sent back to a place that is foreign to them, where they don't even understand the language, or culture (as they were raised here). Asylum doesn't mean that everybody gets permanent residency here.

jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm angry that he was able to get all the way to Italy unnoticed. But at least they got him.

Europe is just one large soft target. Open borders and all.

He was wanted and crossed 3 borders and 1200km, 5-5 stations...

That was like one long train ride (about 1000 km). Google maps tells me that's about San Francisco, CA to Portland, OR. And the borders are open, it's like taking a long train ride through California (Austria fits like three, four times inside of California). They got him when they found him. Should there be border checkpoints at each state border in Germany for each train, car, and flight? Borders, more or less, don't exist for travel inside Europe. That's the whole point of the EU, to enable you to travel throughout Europe without all the hassle (and you can't restrict that for crime fighting purposes without also making it useless for every non-criminal). I don't think anyone is complaining about there being not enough artificially checkpoints every 200 or 300 miles in California or Texas because these states are too big.

Mario wrote:

Orlanth wrote:AlmightyWalrus, it is possible the idea for Germany is to repatriate the back to Syrians once Syria is stabilised.

Merkel has likely realised she has made a mistake taking so many, and has in the least realised she has inflamed Germany by dong so and this policy has become her legacy.
1.1 million Syrians is one hell of a lot, even for a nation like germany. When you add the problems with the rapes and lack of integration, and the flat fact that they have been infiltrated; it makes sense to keep the Syrians together so that Germany can say it was their idea all along to let the refugees in for humanitarian relief, feed and cloth them then send them home when the war if over, with a restructuring package.

The bold part: That's how it usually works. Asylum only means you get to stay temporarily in Germany (until the danger is over). Asylum is not the same as immigration. Of course, if you are here for a long enough time you can get permanent resident status like anybody else and the rules for that are the same as for anybody who wants to get that status (stuff like being able to sustain a live here and so on). I mentioned in another reply how this can be harsh on kids who get here as infants, grow up, and live here and then get sent back to a place that is foreign to them, where they don't even understand the language, or culture (as they were raised here). Asylum doesn't mean that everybody gets permanent residency here.

jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm angry that he was able to get all the way to Italy unnoticed. But at least they got him.

Europe is just one large soft target. Open borders and all.

He was wanted and crossed 3 borders and 1200km, 5-5 stations...

That was like one long train ride (about 1000 km). Google maps tells me that's about San Francisco, CA to Portland, OR. And the borders are open, it's like taking a long train ride through California (Austria fits like three, four times inside of California). They got him when they found him. Should there be border checkpoints at each state border in Germany for each train, car, and flight? Borders, more or less, don't exist for travel inside Europe. That's the whole point of the EU, to enable you to travel throughout Europe without all the hassle (and you can't restrict that for crime fighting purposes without also making it useless for every non-criminal). I don't think anyone is complaining about there being not enough artificially checkpoints every 200 or 300 miles in California or Texas because these states are too big.

When you have events like this. There should be checks to prevent the criminal sawnning off like they did.

Its not even complicated, photo id only, show itnand wave on your way. Disruption yes. But the border alerts not permannent.

Temp checks at border and local countries to prevent escape, and also ensures if they are escaped suspects they cannot escape as easily.

I don't buy that they are nessicary, I can drive from NY, NY to Scramento, CA without showing my ID onve. That's like 6000 miles. If the US can deal with it, so can the EU. As long as the police communicate, thete shouldn't be an issue, which is sort of the point of the EU, isn't it? And if the boarders aren't manned it shouldn't be difficult to cross the boarders avoiding a checkpoint.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Ok, lets dance. They don't decide who rules Turkey anymore than we do. And these people made a conscious decision to flee abroad instead of to government held territory. Who says they even want or can go back to an Assad controlled Syria.

So 100% of refugees are from Syria now?

I never started with claiming they were a 100% Syrians. The tangent you started replying to was specifically about Syrians returning, thats why I keep bringing up Assad. Furthermore, many of the refugees from Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan used to travel through Turkey on their way to Europe

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You basically say that you don't care about the future of Syrians, either alive or dead.

You expect me to care for 8.000.000.000 Humans fate on earth?

Why don't you offer any other reply than silly claims anyone who disagrees doesn't care. Its a widespread practice. "Paint them as bad as possible", then their views don't count.
Doesn't work.

The burden to ensure world peace, safe the climate, provide jobs,education and welfare to every human on this planet is NOT upon Europe or Germany alone.

No, I expect you to have a little sympathy for why these people want to come to Europe. Saying they can go somewhere else without providing any long term solution is easy. I already said, grant those Syrians who are not a threat political asylum. How about you advocating for them to live in refugees camps for an unknown number of year, is that less silly?

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Look at the statistics, only 1 in every 10 displaced Syrians come to Europe, stop spreading this false information.

Where did I say x% of Syrians come to Europe?
Statistics exist to be used. Created to supply a view. There was 0 false info from me.

You said "this Planet is a big place. You don't have to pick Europe.... ", I'm just saying the vast majority doesn't even pick Europe. It is a false idea being propagated by right wing parties. Did you mean that you don't want any to pick Europe?

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And what if no other country wants to take them either? Should we let them die because it is politically convenient to keep them out of 'our house'?

Nice attempt to blame someone for something that may or may not happen. Where is your proof that 100% of Syrians are going to die ( i mean we know humans are mortal so if you wait for 70+ years ...) ?

Don't you think its odd how many young males are "refugees" , the group which usually was doing the fighting in wars for millenia of human history, and so few families?
But maybe the families, the old and sick, are safe in Syria and just the possible recruts have to flee...

Exactly, young men are expected to do the fighting and are the first to get called up to die, these young men have chosen not to die for a pointless civil war. They are also the most able to make the dangerous crossing and then take advantage of family reunion policies in Europe to safely bring in there family. If you want to get a place in Europe you're not going to send your 80 year old infirm grandma to reserve you a spot. Who do you think stays behind in Turkey?

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Please you are German, you are the definition of permanent. The war that Hitler started ended with the forced displacement of millions of people in 1945, not in the least ethnic Germans to what territory Germany currently occupies. You didn't have any control over Poland or Czechoslovakia forcibly exiling Germans that Germany had to accept. Don't come at me with your 'we live here we know, our terms', you obviously don't realize less then 70 years ago you didn't even decide your own fate.

Really?
Maybe we don't even decide our fate right now?...who knows...
But, my point was a bit farther down in history. Seems you have to dig a bit deeper than 100 years. Are 1000 enough to find examples where the recrutement and settlement of people worked in europe?

Further down in history? What are you talking about, refugee and immigration policy is something of the last 100 to 200 years at most. We have plenty of examples where people had to flee from war and settle in a different country. The Netherlands is one such country that had to deal with a large influx of refugees during the war for our independence. If anything the less centralized states of the past had little control over actual refugees and it all worked out pretty well. It also happened that the world ended up neatly divided into large empires that could easily resettle their own refugees in different places. Modern history might be one of the only times that we fully control who is allowed to stay and who is not due to the extensive registering of citizens. Explain your point more clearly or else it contains little of value. war and refugees have always been a part of Europe. I pointed out that even Germany did not have any say in the matter of refugees as little as 70 years ago, while you were claiming some sort of historical basis for knowledge on refugee problems and the terms you could set on them.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The main refugees groups are from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, low %?? How safe are these?

Since no one is sent into active war zones, many people only at low % means the threat isn't as covering the surface of earth like some want to tell everyone.

I don't quite understand what it is you're trying to say here. Are you denying that Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis make up the majority of refugees and they aren't coming from war zones? I have also shown statistics that the vast majority stays in the immediate region and only relatively few tend to make for Europe.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
. Do you know what Assad has done to protesters and opponents?

Is Assad Immortal? No? so it won't be this way forever. But you seem to have no problem paying someone like Erdogan ( where no one knows what he may do to protesters and opponents )....

Is Assad immortal? Yes, seeing as Assad is the family name and before the current one we had his father in c harge commiting crimes against humanity. If he wins this war it is quite likely someone else from the Assad clan will take over the reins of power. Please explain to me with your gift of clairvoyance when the Assad regime will fall so we can send these Syrians back that would be great, also what are the winning lottery numbers while you're at it? The Kims have been in power since the 50's, what's to say the Assad clan won't be in power for 5 or more decades if they win? What are you going to do with those refugees in the meantime? I do have very big problems paying Erdogan, but unfortunately it is the realpolitik being trafficked to assure less refugees in Europe. As much as I dislike the Führer of Turkey he isn't exactly engaged in a bloody civil war to maintain power, killing thousands every day, which is why its more acceptable politically to pay him. This whole time you have been missing my points, I advise you take more time to read them as I have most certainly expressed no approval of those plans.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Always a pleasure to see someone who can gain enjoyment out of human suffering, shine on you crazy diamond

Sure. have a too.

Lets not pretend you called my point about sending Syrian refugees back into the arms of the Assad regime murder, and I quote "silly".

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Exactly, we know what happens if we send these people back. So why are you questioning letting these Syrians in to be tried against this procedure?

We know? How many Syrians are real Syrians?
If you know who is who, why don't you support our poor serfs in their quest to identify and clear the status of people?
We can take the identified ones in then .

Well if you had been paying attention to my posts in this thread I have posted research with numbers on where they are from. And cut the BS as if we don't tend to investigate and identify these people before deciding if they can stay or should go back. The least we can do is take care of them here until such time as it is established. Its not like living in a detention center for years is so great for them.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Again you don't understand. Identifying the bad people isn't the problem. Saying to Syrians you can't come in because one or two of you might be bad is the problem. You do realize Syria is an active war zone and we are already deporting Syrians back to Turkey right? And danger as in that the regime will arrest and punish people for actions they should be punished for. For someone saying they know what political asylum is you don't seem to know the definition of danger in that context.

So identifiyng the bad isn't the problem when we have hundred thousands of people who are without papers, maybe not identified correctly and the fact people may try the dishonest route and count as syrians if this grants them a chance to stay?
People who got a message of please stay where you are aren't the ones with a good chance to get political asylum but people from the south of europe and the north of africa.

Lets try this again. I... have... no.. problem... with.. the.. authorities... trying... to... identify... the.. bad.. people. I never said that trying to identify them was easy. You do realize these people don't just get a pass when they say they are Syrian. We have a whole infrastructure dedicated to investigate the claims of these people. Actually if you identify the problem it is more likely their asylum application gets treated more quickly once there in Europe than outside as it adds extra pressure politically. Then when those people are granted to stay, which has absolutely nothing to do with if they did or didn't cross into Europe, they can ask for their families to be brought over.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You can't remove those people if you don't know they are evil, are you trying to be dense?

And if I know they "are evil" ? If you know they plan an attack? Is this enough ?
Oh wait, we are going to observe them, for years, attempt to deport them, for years, and someday they are making their plans happen and politicans blame the police...
I think we had a law preventing one from fighting for foreign powers. Maybe we should reactive it and any type of loyality to known extremists nets you a safe and warm place to stay for a while...

If you know they are planning attacks you should arrest them. In the case of the Berlin attack we have seen how many things they knew about the guy yet they didn't intervene. Who knows why they didn't but we have laws against the planning of a terrorist attack. Deporting them is a whole different problem as no country wants to accept a known terrorist, unless we start advocating strapping on a parachute and dumping them out of a plane above some random country. Again it is already illegal to participate in a terrorist organisation or fighting abroad for one, we are already able to punish these people with sufficient evidence, but evidence is the problem.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Imprison those who commit crimes and then either deport or observe them after they serve their sentence, you know like how we treat nationals who commit crimes?

So we wait for someone to drive a truck over some pedestrians and then we can deal with them. Awesome! Instead of using the gathered info and protecting the people we sit and wait.

No we don't. Most countries have arrested and put people on trial for plotting terrorist attacks, there is no reason we should't be able to do that with refugees planning the same. There is absolutely no reason they should have let the Berlin or Paris attackers walk around freely with the evidence later shown that we possessed. Trying to imply I'm saying that is disingenuous in the worst possible way, but nice try.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Again we don't send Syrians back now because its a WAR ZONE!

But we can send them back someday.
And we get closer to that day if we stop the silly powergames of certain nations.

Exactly, someday. But that day might be tomorrow by some miracle or 50 years when the Assad regime finally falls. What are we going to do with these Syrians in the meantime? And silly powergames are exactly the reason Assad will stay in power and these people can't go back, until Russia and Iran intervened he did not have the strength left to successfully win the war. Ending the war doesn't mean these people can just return.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Based on the fact that so many are already here I'm going to say we can't. Just look at the USA and Mexican immigration, they don't really want it yet they still come, don't pretend this is simple.

I said we can. I didn't say its easy.

And I say we most certainly can't. Protecting the border is economically unfeasible and they will just disappear into illegality. Explain to me exactly how we can with something more than just we can.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

If you say no he will personally help those refugees cross to make a point.

Good news for us! we can make him fail there.

How are we going to make him fail. He will just give every refugee a rubber boat and send them on to Greece, are we going to leave them floating around to die in the Aegean? Cause I'm certainly willing to bet Erdogan might be prepared to, as he is basically trying to punish Europe to get his rocks off. Then what?

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Giving them nothing just gives him incentive to either force them to stay in Syria like he is doing or just shipping them on.

Can he afford to let everyone know who benefits from shipping them on ?

Oh he sure can. He doesn't have any problem with political support in his own country. Lets not forget he RESTARTED THE WAR WITH THE KURDS FOR POLITICAL GAIN. He is willing to let hundreds of his citizens die for some extra parliament seats. You think he gives two flying feths about what people think of him shipping off refugees? For someone borderline calling me an Erdogan supporter you sure don't know a lot about the man.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

We don't have anywhere near the funds to secure the entire EU border.

Depends.

It doesn't depend. Having enough people to cover the entire Mediterranean in ships and coasts with personnel to send back refugees would cost Trillions. Where do we get this money from? Do you have another magical village filled with gold next to the one where all the refugees went to?

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Your UN comment is just so far outside of reality you might as well advocate sending them to Mars.

Mars is surely a safe place without war.

I'm glad we can both appreciate how ridiculous your argument was.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Why do you think Germany and others pay Turkey so we can DEPORT THEM BACK THERE. If everything was so simple as mister Müller would want us to believe there wouldn't be a refugee rpoblem as we would have already tried this years ago.

Our shortsighted leaders never act soon enough. The problem was on the horizon and the Europeans did as much as they did to prevent every other crisis. Nothing.
Afterwards the people can pay to solve the problem because money makes problems go away. Or not.

How was the problem of the Syrian civil war on the horizon? The Arab spring was one of the big political events we completely missed coming. Please tell me more how we could have prevented all this?
Money never makes problems go way, if that was the case we would have won Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and a multitude of other conflicts in no time. Money is the one thing that isn't really that effective unless you go at it the proper way such as temporarily or indefinitely allowing people to stay somewhere safe were they don't start resenting us and create problems ten years down the line.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

We are relatively rich enough to provide their children with an education and a job in the future. We have that future to offer even if you don't want to acknowledge or enable it, going back to Mexico and the USA.

So we pay for educating a lot of people so we can have them around without jobs.
I don't have to acknowledge false hopes. To offer a perspective you cannot deliver is , at least, unfair.
Several Countrys in europe already got lots of unemployed youth. You go tell them we are going to add some so we can have more.They will be happy. And celebrate your great idea.

Again look at the demographic problems Germany is going to encounter in the future and the types of jobs these people do, not many natives want those. Her is some info: http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21688938-europes-new-arrivals-will-probably-dent-public-finances-not-wages-good-or Just read it and come back to me about false hopes. The economy is recovering and refugees tend to go to countries with the lowest unemployment rates. You don't see them crowding in Italy and Spain with the highest youth unemployment. There are jobs for those coming in now and there educated children will fill the labour gap that native Germans will leave due to the declining birth rate. Please don't try to make false statements. As much as people in the Netherlands like to pretend they will steal our jobs, the second the babyboomers retire there will be far too few people to work and pay taxes to take care of those retirees. All these refugees are expected to eventually boost our economies, for someone blaming short term thinking of politicians your economic viewpoint certainly suffers from the same problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't buy that they are nessicary, I can drive from NY, NY to Scramento, CA without showing my ID onve. That's like 6000 miles. If the US can deal with it, so can the EU. As long as the police communicate, thete shouldn't be an issue, which is sort of the point of the EU, isn't it? And if the boarders aren't manned it shouldn't be difficult to cross the boarders avoiding a checkpoint.

Its a side effect of Schengen, automated ticket machines and the fact that you can buy international train tickets without ID as long as you don't want to reserve a spot in advance but go up to the desk. I have crossed borders many times with public transport and I have never had to show ID if I just showed up to the train station. The day this man had to escape probably gave him enough time, given that he had some money, to easily leave Germany without any help before they had even considered him as a suspect.

Millions of people cross borders all over the world every day, sometimes with, and sometimes without ID checks. There's no evidence this leads to increased terrorism. If anything, western Europe in particular is one of the safest places on Earth from crime, poverty, terrorism and war. That is why people want to come and live here.

The perpetrator of this attack was a Tunisian. He has been shot by police in Milan after pulling a gun on them when they asked him for ID.

The killer had quite the time over a large part of Europe. He really repeatedly pissed in our faces.

He had quite the time in Tunisia too. Apparently the reason why he was seeking asylum in Europe in the first place was because he was fleeing criminal convictions. I believe it was arson or something like that. I'll get the sources I was reading up as soon as I find them. Weirdly, even though he was on their radar, Tunisia felt justified in claiming that they didn't know if he was one of theirs or not and thus refused to take him back.

It's also strange that his family still feel like Tunisia is safe enough to live in isn't it? It's almost as if he was never really in enough danger to warrant being labelled an asylum seeker and was instead a lowlife scumbag taking his chances to abuse our system. Who'd have thought it?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The killer had quite the time over a large part of Europe. He really repeatedly pissed in our faces.

He had quite the time in Tunisia too. Apparently the reason why he was seeking asylum in Europe in the first place was because he was fleeing criminal convictions. I believe it was arson or something like that. I'll get the sources I was reading up as soon as I find them. Weirdly, even though he was on their radar, Tunisia felt justified in claiming that they didn't know if he was one of theirs or not and thus refused to take him back.

It's also strange that his family still feel like Tunisia is safe enough to live in isn't it? It's almost as if he was never really in enough danger to warrant being labelled an asylum seeker and was instead a lowlife scumbag taking his chances to abuse our system. Who'd have thought it?

From what I read he committed arson in Italy after he arrived in 2011, not in Tunisia, spending four years in Italian jail. When he was released in 2015 he travelled to Germany. He seems to have radicalized during his time in prison (corresponding with his allegiance video last spring or summer in Germany) as he recently started sending money to his 18 year old brother or nephew to cross as well to help him with whatever attack he was preparing. And he wanted to go from Italy to Turkey to fight in Syria, which seems the most inconvenient route if he already had that plan in Tunisia.

Edit: I just checked, four years for arson in Palermo.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The killer had quite the time over a large part of Europe

What an exemplar of unbiased reporting the Spectator is.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The killer had quite the time over a large part of Europe

What an exemplar of unbiased reporting the Spectator is.

I'm just curious, do you dispute anything they said in the story?

The spectator is a news magizine that lets its journalists voice their own opinions, not a newspaper looking for unbiased reporting. This case I find myself agreeing with Nicholas. Why was that scumbag still in Europe?

There is no such thing as unbiased reporting in the paid media.
Newspapers and TV channels have editors and owners. Owners have opinions at a high level and editors echo them.

Comments about biased media usually come from very naive or dishonest set who flatly refuse to acknowledge that the people behind the media of their own political direction is as swayable as any other.

Tory press is full of lies, signed Guardian reader (and vice versa).

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how one comes to the conclusion that Gatestone Institute is just as valid a source as official statistics. Meanwhile, back in reality, the fact that everything has biases does not mean those biases are equal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how one comes to the conclusion that Gatestone Institute is just as valid a source as official statistics. Meanwhile, back in reality, the fact that everything has biases does not mean those biases are equal.

So some peoples bias is to have a head-in-sand denial about the rape culture overtaking Sweden.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/04/swedish-music-festivals-hit-by-reports-of-rapes-by-migrants/
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8579/sweden-sexual-assaults
http://www.thelocal.se/20160111/police-reinvestigate-sex-crimes-at-teen-festival


Even elements of the left wing press recognises, outside of Sweden itself, that the culture of denial is counterproductive:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-assaults-sweden-stockholm-music-festival

To the extend of assuming those who criticise the well documented rise of Islamic violence in Europe must be bigots.
As demonstrated:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're jumping straigth to the conclusion that he's had help without even considering the fact that he could've just taken a train or a bus to Italy and evaded police along the way. You ARE the "real villains" (other than the people who, you know, actually kill people), as you put it, because we can count on you blaming Muslims for absolutely everything. Meanwhile, you block people for daring to point out that doing things like disparaging every Bremainer based on the actions of individuals makes you a bigot.
You're not going to see this, but I'll say the same thing I said last time: if you don't want to be called a bigot, stop doing bigotted things.

No its not bigoted raise an issue with an evident problem, and doubly necessary to raise the issue when some people in authority are happy to let abuses continue because confronting them is uncomfortable for ethnic relations.

Sweden, learn from the Blair regime, learn from Rotherham.
And now the problem is in your homeland, learn from Malmo festival too.

I am not going to be silenced by dishonest left wing progressive rhetoric, and neither should anyone else. This problem is very real.

@ Orlanth

That was an excellently worded post worth exalting, thank you.

EDIT:

I see that according to Almighty Walrus, I'm on the same level as the killers because I call them and their creed out. Yeah, crap like that is why I have him on ignore. Contrary to what some might believe, I can tolerate different opinions. What I don't tolerate is gross insults and hyperbolic accusations like that.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The spectator is a news magizine that lets its journalists voice their own opinions, not a newspaper looking for unbiased reporting. This case I find myself agreeing with Nicholas. Why was that scumbag still in Europe?

He already committed arson... Why did we even keep this guy. By some reports he fled Tunisia as was wanted for car theft..... Sounds good guy.

Surely a serious crime is ernough for deportation.
Its not minor assault, arson can and has killed.

If we deported in 2015... 12 people be home with families for Christmas.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The spectator is a news magizine that lets its journalists voice their own opinions, not a newspaper looking for unbiased reporting. This case I find myself agreeing with Nicholas. Why was that scumbag still in Europe?

He already committed arson... Why did we even keep this guy. By some reports he fled Tunisia as was wanted for car theft..... Sounds good guy.

Surely a serious crime is ernough for deportation.
Its not minor assault, arson can and has killed.

If we deported in 2015... 12 people be home with families for Christmas.

Pre-Crime Division screw-up as usual.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The spectator is a news magizine that lets its journalists voice their own opinions, not a newspaper looking for unbiased reporting. This case I find myself agreeing with Nicholas. Why was that scumbag still in Europe?

He already committed arson... Why did we even keep this guy. By some reports he fled Tunisia as was wanted for car theft..... Sounds good guy.

Surely a serious crime is ernough for deportation.
Its not minor assault, arson can and has killed.

If we deported in 2015... 12 people be home with families for Christmas.

Pre-Crime Division screw-up as usual.

And Arson with 4 years in jail not deportable offense?
Its seriousness is higher ernough to qustion if you even want that person in Europe. Samneif caught, rape, murder, serious assults or such.

Crime is bad ernough you must raise question, and investigate it.

This only seems significant due to cognitive bias, because this particular guy has now done something terrorist.

There are various recent terrorists in Europe who didn't commit a previous crime, and/or else are citizens and can't deported. In fact most of them are in this category.

There are also no doubt lots of asylum seekers and refugees who have committed some type of crime, been punished, and have not gone on to commit a terrorism.

Apologies in advance if something's been misplaced, handling monster posts on a phone is hard!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Orlanth

That was an excellently worded post worth exalting, thank you.

EDIT:

I see that according to Almighty Walrus, I'm on the same level as the killers because I call them and their creed out. Yeah, crap like that is why I have him on ignore. Contrary to what some might believe, I can tolerate different opinions. What I don't tolerate is gross insults and hyperbolic accusations like that.

If you'd read what I wrote you'd notice the tiny little exception that I made. You know, the one where I acknowledge that the murderer obviously is worse.

And you still have me on ignore because you can't deal with being called a bigot for posting bigoted posts. It's on public display for everyone to see in the UK politics thread. Do you want me to quote it for you?

 Orlanth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how one comes to the conclusion that Gatestone Institute is just as valid a source as official statistics. Meanwhile, back in reality, the fact that everything has biases does not mean those biases are equal.

So some peoples bias is to have a head-in-sand denial about the rape culture overtaking Sweden.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/04/swedish-music-festivals-hit-by-reports-of-rapes-by-migrants/
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8579/sweden-sexual-assaults
http://www.thelocal.se/20160111/police-reinvestigate-sex-crimes-at-teen-festival


Even elements of the left wing press recognises, outside of Sweden itself, that the culture of denial is counterproductive:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-assaults-sweden-stockholm-music-festival

To the extend of assuming those who criticise the well documented rise of Islamic violence in Europe must be bigots.
As demonstrated:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're jumping straigth to the conclusion that he's had help without even considering the fact that he could've just taken a train or a bus to Italy and evaded police along the way. You ARE the "real villains" (other than the people who, you know, actually kill people), as you put it, because we can count on you blaming Muslims for absolutely everything. Meanwhile, you block people for daring to point out that doing things like disparaging every Bremainer based on the actions of individuals makes you a bigot.
You're not going to see this, but I'll say the same thing I said last time: if you don't want to be called a bigot, stop doing bigotted things.

No its not bigoted raise an issue with an evident problem, and doubly necessary to raise the issue when some people in authority are happy to let abuses continue because confronting them is uncomfortable for ethnic relations.

Sweden, learn from the Blair regime, learn from Rotherham.
And now the problem is in your homeland, learn from Malmo festival too.

I am not going to be silenced by dishonest left wing progressive rhetoric, and neither should anyone else. This problem is very real.

We've been over this in three threads already. You've been wrong every time.

The Guardian article fails to mention the massive widening of what constitutes rape in 2004/05. It mentions the wide definition of rape, but not that it was made that wide during the period they're looking at. Funnily enough that led to an increased number of reported rapes.

The Gatestone Institute articles, being by the Gatestone Institute, are riddled with methodological feth-ups. From using themselves as sources (which is OK, but silly when they could just link whatever source they were after) to using sites like Fria Tider, Avpixlat and Pettersonsblogg as sources at all (and no, I'm not going to debate whether Avpixlat is a legitimate source. I have better things to do.). Further, the Gatestone article blatantly tries to pass off correlation as causation in the case of Trästockfestivalen. They have nothing that actually process that the immigrants were causative of the abuses, so they'll merely imply it. The bunch of quotes at the start of the article aren't sourced properly, so it's almost impossible to check them. Similarly, the claims about the boys being identified as being from Afghanistan, Somalia, and Eritrea is not sourced at all.

Ingrid Carlqvist, the author of the article, is no longer affiliated with Gatestone because not even they could stomach her after she wanted the Sweden Democrats to seek support from the Neo-nazi group Nordiskt Motstånd. You're literally trying to use a person who sees no problem in cooperating with actual, honest-to-God nazis as an impartial source on immigration.


The debate about the "don't grope" bracelets has already been done in the thread dedicated to it, and I really don't feel like going over that again.

In short, what the Gatestone Institute actually does correctly it observe that there's been sexual assaults on several music festivals, and that the police lied about one of them. That ought to be bad enough without trying to attack immigrants based on little to no evidence beyond testimonies.

Further, why is it that this is suddenly a problem? There's been sexual assault on music festivals for years, women have been delivering testimonies of sexual harassment and assault more or less for ever. Why is this only now a problem? Why are we taking these testimonies as fact now when we haven't ever taken accusations of sexual harassment very seriously, despite professing to do so?

Wait, there are still people propagating the 'sweden rape capital' meme? Really?

Come on, guys. You'd think people would have read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#Swedish_rape_statistics

By now.