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While of course a good part of your personality is just how you are as a person, but then another good part of your personality comes from your experiences, particularly during your earlier years. So what would the Primarchs be like had they spent their early years with Dadperor on Terra? Of course there would be some more serious changes to some of them (e.g. Angron not being completely mental) but others I'm not so sure about.

Just decided to throw this out because it suddenly dawned on me that they could potentially be completely different individuals and I had never thought about it before. So, opinions?

Bit difficult to say really as so much would have been different. Angron wouldn't have got his Butcher's Nails, Mortarion and Pert wouldn't have been screwed over by Big E in the way they were so might have ended up more stable.

However, Emps was pretty inept when it came to diplomacy with his Primarchs, and I doubt the Chaos Gods would have given up after their attempt to scatter the Primarchs failed.

The answer would be 'probably more noblebright for most humans, worse for everyone not human, but still with a significant chance of going belly up and all hell breaking loose'.

Boring, probably. We'd have 18 Dorn/Guilliman copies.

As a Psychology student, I can say it's actually a classic part of one of the great psychological debates called 'Nature vs Nurture'.
It's definitely worth looking into, if you're into that sort of thinking.

Although, like Ynnea said, you can question wether or not they would have been well/better off in the care of old E.

It would certainly have made for a boring storyline of the 40k universe. 30k probably wouldn't have existed.

Well it actually depends, it is mentioned in at least one of the HH books that each of the Primarch's contained an aspect of the Emperor, so some of them may have toned it back a bit, but never completely gotten away from that role. That being said, you cant deny the worlds they were raised on would have had an influence. Magnus would have still been their most powerful psyker, as that was the aspect of the Emperor, infact, it was intended that Magnus be the one to sit on the golden throne to protect against chaos. Horus would have still been ambitious. Roboutte would still have been the been the Empire Builder Aspect. Angron may have become the emperors executioner, rather than Russ, as I think Russ embodied loyalty. I think that the Night Hunter was meant to be the Emperors Justice, but that sense was warped somewhat. I suspect the Iron Warriors and Iron Hands were intended as the emperors builders of siege and the other destroyers of fortifications.

So yes, the worlds they landed on had an effect, and chaos had an influence, but I don't thing either changed who they were, just how they went about doing what they did and where their limits were.

I'm curious, would Perturabo still see or feel the gaze of the eye of terror boring down upon him?

I'd argue that Angron's thing was loyalty (he was utterly loyal to his men on Nuceria, being absolutely committed to dying by their side. It was the Emperor forcing him to abandon them to their deaths that broke him, really.

I wonder if it might have been Magnus who rebelled against the Emperor. From what I can tell, his purpose was to sit upon the Golden Throne for all eternity, and just open and close the webway gate that E-Money created for the Imperium to use. How utterly monotonous.

I can see Magnus balking at that tedious fate for him (possibly shown to him by Curze in his visions), and instigating a rebellion. Plus, with blessings from Tzeentch he's probably the only Primarch that could go toe-to-toe with the Emperor (apart from uber-Horus) and come out on top.

As for who else would fall with him, perhaps Guilliman could see the Imperium being a better place without the dogma of the Emperor. I could see Russ siding with Magnus too, if only because his name would be on the list for purging due to mutations. I'd think Sanguinius would stay loyal. It's said that he was utterly loyal through fear of what his mutations could mean, which I don't think would change.

I wonder who else...

Lorgar? His thinking in absolutes and dedication to faith seems innate, and would be at odds to the Emperor's vision of humanity. Perhaps he'd fall to the Chaos Gods regardless of what happens.

Anyone else?

They'd all still have daddy issues and get jealous of each other. I still think there would have been a civil war, the emperor would still have taken his eye off the ball with his web way project and picked one of them to be warmaster causing yet more jealousy and envy. Magnus would have been shunned over Nikea, and there would still be Chaos trying to cause problems etc.

Basically I don't think the scattering is what caused most of the issues. It just gave each of the primarchs slightly different characters.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'd argue that Angron's thing was loyalty (he was utterly loyal to his men on Nuceria, being absolutely committed to dying by their side. It was the Emperor forcing him to abandon them to their deaths that broke him, really.

I wonder if it might have been Magnus who rebelled against the Emperor. From what I can tell, his purpose was to sit upon the Golden Throne for all eternity, and just open and close the webway gate that E-Money created for the Imperium to use. How utterly monotonous.

I can see Magnus balking at that tedious fate for him (possibly shown to him by Curze in his visions), and instigating a rebellion. Plus, with blessings from Tzeentch he's probably the only Primarch that could go toe-to-toe with the Emperor (apart from uber-Horus) and come out on top.

As for who else would fall with him, perhaps Guilliman could see the Imperium being a better place without the dogma of the Emperor. I could see Russ siding with Magnus too, if only because his name would be on the list for purging due to mutations. I'd think Sanguinius would stay loyal. It's said that he was utterly loyal through fear of what his mutations could mean, which I don't think would change.

I wonder who else...

Lorgar? His thinking in absolutes and dedication to faith seems innate, and would be at odds to the Emperor's vision of humanity. Perhaps he'd fall to the Chaos Gods regardless of what happens.

Anyone else?

Actually, I really couldn't see Russ siding with Magnus any more than he did Horus. Horus was one of the few brothers Russ didn't dislike, Magnus along with Alpharius were two brothers he hated. He hated how Magnus and Alpharius conducted battle, he hated how Magnus looked at him as a dumb savage and he hated the fact Magnus had the smarts to back it up.

I think if anyone could make Russ turn traitor due to the Wolves' mutations it would be Sanguinius or the Lion.

 Anfauglir wrote:
Boring, probably. We'd have 18 Dorn/Guilliman copies.

Having 9 Primarchs willing to quit fighting and build their own Empire at the first sign of trouble would make for a fascinating tale in an alternate timeline where E-Money disappeared, like the Scarlet Empress from Exalted.

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool story. Anyone wanna guess which 9 end up as pussies like Dorn and which 9 become wanna-be Emperors?

Well Big E would have had to change a lot of Primarch diapers. Kinda sounds like a sitcom... 1 Emperor, 20 Babies. The missing two might have survived with that right?

During the Master of Mankind book, Dorn straight up says he would hand over the job of leading the Emperors armies on Terra to Guilliman if Guilliman was there.

Fun fact!

Honestly, I would probably expect even more than nine primarchs to rebel if they weren't scattered. The Emperor didn't view the Primarchs as individuals. They were numbers that were meant to lead troops. Nothing more to him. Not the best environment to grow in.

Exactly as how the Emperor had intended them to be.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'd argue that Angron's thing was loyalty (he was utterly loyal to his men on Nuceria, being absolutely committed to dying by their side. It was the Emperor forcing him to abandon them to their deaths that broke him, really.

I wonder if it might have been Magnus who rebelled against the Emperor. From what I can tell, his purpose was to sit upon the Golden Throne for all eternity, and just open and close the webway gate that E-Money created for the Imperium to use. How utterly monotonous.

I can see Magnus balking at that tedious fate for him (possibly shown to him by Curze in his visions), and instigating a rebellion. Plus, with blessings from Tzeentch he's probably the only Primarch that could go toe-to-toe with the Emperor (apart from uber-Horus) and come out on top.

As for who else would fall with him, perhaps Guilliman could see the Imperium being a better place without the dogma of the Emperor. I could see Russ siding with Magnus too, if only because his name would be on the list for purging due to mutations. I'd think Sanguinius would stay loyal. It's said that he was utterly loyal through fear of what his mutations could mean, which I don't think would change.

I wonder who else...

Lorgar? His thinking in absolutes and dedication to faith seems innate, and would be at odds to the Emperor's vision of humanity. Perhaps he'd fall to the Chaos Gods regardless of what happens.

Anyone else?

Actually, I really couldn't see Russ siding with Magnus any more than he did Horus. Horus was one of the few brothers Russ didn't dislike, Magnus along with Alpharius were two brothers he hated. He hated how Magnus and Alpharius conducted battle, he hated how Magnus looked at him as a dumb savage and he hated the fact Magnus had the smarts to back it up.

I think if anyone could make Russ turn traitor due to the Wolves' mutations it would be Sanguinius or the Lion.

The thing is is that hatred of Magnus is founded a lot on events that took place after they were scattered.

If Russ hadn't been sent to Fenris, he wouldn't have been exposed to their society and would have grown up on Terra. No bitterness of how he was viewed as a savage because he probably wouldn't have been one. As for how they wage war, I think you're right with that, but would that have been enough to force a divide above and beyond his fear of his Legion being purged?

I do agree though, that Sanguinius or the Lion would be better at the recruiting than Magnus. I wonder whether Sanguinius would have turned traitor due to his mutations. And I have no idea how the Lion would have turned out. I suppose his personality would be little changed (although he'd have missed out on his experience with daemons, meaning he'd be less prepared for the pull of chaos).

I also wonder if Guilliman would have sided with Magnus, simply because he might have thought the Imperium would be better run under Magnus' (and his) rule than the Emperor's...

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Boring, probably. We'd have 18 Dorn/Guilliman copies.

Having 9 Primarchs willing to quit fighting and build their own Empire at the first sign of trouble would make for a fascinating tale in an alternate timeline where E-Money disappeared, like the Scarlet Empress from Exalted.

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool story. Anyone wanna guess which 9 end up as pussies like Dorn and which 9 become wanna-be Emperors?

Now that's an interesting idea. How about this?

1. Big E sets out on his Great Crusade, the galaxy burns and the Imperium is forged. Mankind's enemies tumble before him, and humanity is united.
2. His work done, the Emperor disappears. Many expeditions search for him, believing him to have become a recluse. Magnus searches the warp for him, believing him to have ascended to a state of pure warp energy. All to no avail.
3. Each Primarch claims lordship of the areas of the Imperium they and their Legions have carved out, with Malcador the Sigilite founding a Council of Terra to rule the Imperium.
4. Tensions rise as Malcador's begins to lose authority of the various demi-god generals.
5. War erupts between the Primarchs and their empires as old rivalries and hatreds bubble to the surface.
6. The Imperium devolves into bitter warfare on all fronts as Primarchs and their armies clash, with Malcador at the head of the armies of Holy Terra desperately fighting to retain control.
7. Their Grand Plan come to fruition, the Chaos Gods revel in the suffering that they have produced.

It's basically Alexander's Diadochi...in spaaace!

Works with the scattering too, but if the Heresy failed to take root.

Wouldn't Sanguinius have become the Warmaster? Didn't Horus get chosen because he had been around big E longer?

Sanguinius (mutant) could have been aborted as the Emperor wouldn't have been desperately scooping up any Primarchs he was able to relocate?

nareik wrote:
Sanguinius (mutant) could have been aborted as the Emperor wouldn't have been desperately scooping up any Primarchs he was able to relocate?

Yeah I think that would be likely. I wonder if we'd see a purebloods vs mutants civil war.

Or, I wonder if you'd get a humans vs Astartes civil war.

After the Great Crusade, Big E decides that much like the Thunder Warriors, the Astartes and their Primarch prototypes aren't required any more. However, it's a bit trickier to wipe out an army that spans the galaxy, as opposed to just one planet. United by their mutual enemy, the Primarchs and their Astartes sons fight a desperate battle for survival against the God-Emperor of mankind and his human legions.

Neat

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

nareik wrote:
Sanguinius (mutant) could have been aborted as the Emperor wouldn't have been desperately scooping up any Primarchs he was able to relocate?

Yeah I think that would be likely. I wonder if we'd see a purebloods vs mutants civil war.

Or, I wonder if you'd get a humans vs Astartes civil war.

After the Great Crusade, Big E decides that much like the Thunder Warriors, the Astartes and their Primarch prototypes aren't required any more. However, it's a bit trickier to wipe out an army that spans the galaxy, as opposed to just one planet. United by their mutual enemy, the Primarchs and their Astartes sons fight a desperate battle for survival against the God-Emperor of mankind and his human legions.

Neat

Well he could have avoided part of that but just shutting down geneseed production. No more marine replacements, means they lose power over time. But he wasn't known as a long term planner...

I'd think of them as generals in any 3rd world dictatorship. If the Boss leaves they will fight for power until a new one wins. If that one weakens then the fight will begin again. etc. etc.

 Anfauglir wrote:
Boring, probably. We'd have 18 Dorn/Guilliman copies.

This. Probably a few Horus copies too.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Boring, probably. We'd have 18 Dorn/Guilliman copies.

Having 9 Primarchs willing to quit fighting and build their own Empire at the first sign of trouble would make for a fascinating tale in an alternate timeline where E-Money disappeared, like the Scarlet Empress from Exalted.

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool story. Anyone wanna guess which 9 end up as pussies like Dorn and which 9 become wanna-be Emperors?

Hmm... insulting Dorn.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Boring, probably. We'd have 18 Dorn/Guilliman copies.

Having 9 Primarchs willing to quit fighting and build their own Empire at the first sign of trouble would make for a fascinating tale in an alternate timeline where E-Money disappeared, like the Scarlet Empress from Exalted.

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool story. Anyone wanna guess which 9 end up as pussies like Dorn and which 9 become wanna-be Emperors?

Hmm... insulting Dorn.

The truth is hardly insulting.

Dorn is also incredibly stupid. Istvaan V was his brilliant plan, after all.

I agree that (for the sake of the story) their personality flaws would have still been there, as they were supposedly all littlw facets of the Emperor anyway, (fulgrims pride, angrons temper, sanguinius nobility, russes alpha dog, alpharius showmanship, kurzes paranoia/psychosis, mortarions sullennness... etc.)

It would been more of a family drama that way. But Grim. And dark....

This. This is what it would be like.

htts://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGrOK8oZG8

for those who suggest that the heresy may not have happened, remember Horus was RAISED by the emperor

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The truth is hardly insulting.

Dorn is also incredibly stupid. Istvaan V was his brilliant plan, after all.

What the hell was that transvestite comment supposed to be about? How is Dorn being a "pussy" a truth? Furthermore, even if truthful, how is the comment not meant as an insult (which we both know it was)? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the colossal disaster at Istvaan V primarily due to the fact that half the loyalist forces were in fact traitors in disguise who turned on their brothers mid-battle? So, again, how exactly does that failure fall on Dorn's shoulders? And, again, how exactly does that make him a quote/unquote "pussy"? Really, I'd just love to know the exact and thourough workings for your reasoning and logic...

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
While of course a good part of your personality is just how you are as a person, but then another good part of your personality comes from your experiences, particularly during your earlier years. So what would the Primarchs be like had they spent their early years with Dadperor on Terra? Of course there would be some more serious changes to some of them (e.g. Angron not being completely mental) but others I'm not so sure about.

Just decided to throw this out because it suddenly dawned on me that they could potentially be completely different individuals and I had never thought about it before. So, opinions?

Big E would have taken them even more for granted and be even more absent, it might take a little longer but chaos would be able to whisper the primarchs dreams far longer before being found out making it possible more primarchs to turn their backs to the big E.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The truth is hardly insulting.

Dorn is also incredibly stupid. Istvaan V was his brilliant plan, after all.

What the hell was that transvestite comment supposed to be about? How is Dorn being a "pussy" a truth? Furthermore, even if truthful, how is the comment not meant as an insult (which we both know it was)? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the colossal disaster at Istvaan V primarily due to the fact that half the loyalist forces were in fact traitors in disguise who turned on their brothers mid-battle? So, again, how exactly does that failure fall on Dorn's shoulders? And, again, how exactly does that make him a quote/unquote "pussy"? Really, I'd just love to know the exact and thourough workings for your reasoning and logic...

Did you read the shorty story where Dorn damned near pisses himself just thinking about facing Curze?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
While of course a good part of your personality is just how you are as a person, but then another good part of your personality comes from your experiences, particularly during your earlier years. So what would the Primarchs be like had they spent their early years with Dadperor on Terra? Of course there would be some more serious changes to some of them (e.g. Angron not being completely mental) but others I'm not so sure about.

Just decided to throw this out because it suddenly dawned on me that they could potentially be completely different individuals and I had never thought about it before. So, opinions?

Big E would have taken them even more for granted and be even more absent, it might take a little longer but chaos would be able to whisper the primarchs dreams far longer before being found out making it possible more primarchs to turn their backs to the big E.

Some of them, sure. Horus likely would have ended up the same way he did. Same with Fulgrim. Magnus might have ended in the same situation if another Primarch came to hate psykers the way Russ did.

Curze, Angron, Lorgar, and Mortarian? They could have turned out the exact opposite as they did. Angron would have no friends to be bitter over. Mortarian would no longer have issues about failing to kill his adopted father. Lorgar would have been raised without religion. Curze would be sane. Curze along could have made it impossible for Chaos to corrupt more than a primarch or two at a time, if he had some semblance of control over his visions.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The truth is hardly insulting.

Dorn is also incredibly stupid. Istvaan V was his brilliant plan, after all.

What the hell was that transvestite comment supposed to be about? How is Dorn being a "pussy" a truth? Furthermore, even if truthful, how is the comment not meant as an insult (which we both know it was)? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the colossal disaster at Istvaan V primarily due to the fact that half the loyalist forces were in fact traitors in disguise who turned on their brothers mid-battle? So, again, how exactly does that failure fall on Dorn's shoulders? And, again, how exactly does that make him a quote/unquote "pussy"? Really, I'd just love to know the exact and thourough workings for your reasoning and logic...

Did you read the shorty story where Dorn damned near pisses himself just thinking about facing Curze?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
While of course a good part of your personality is just how you are as a person, but then another good part of your personality comes from your experiences, particularly during your earlier years. So what would the Primarchs be like had they spent their early years with Dadperor on Terra? Of course there would be some more serious changes to some of them (e.g. Angron not being completely mental) but others I'm not so sure about.

Just decided to throw this out because it suddenly dawned on me that they could potentially be completely different individuals and I had never thought about it before. So, opinions?

Big E would have taken them even more for granted and be even more absent, it might take a little longer but chaos would be able to whisper the primarchs dreams far longer before being found out making it possible more primarchs to turn their backs to the big E.

Some of them, sure. Horus likely would have ended up the same way he did. Same with Fulgrim. Magnus might have ended in the same situation if another Primarch came to hate psykers the way Russ did.

Curze, Angron, Lorgar, and Mortarian? They could have turned out the exact opposite as they did. Angron would have no friends to be bitter over. Mortarian would no longer have issues about failing to kill his adopted father. Lorgar would have been raised without religion. Curze would be sane. Curze along could have made it impossible for Chaos to corrupt more than a primarch or two at a time, if he had some semblance of control over his visions.

just because you're concerned about fighting someone whose scary in a fight does not make you a "pussy"

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The truth is hardly insulting.

Dorn is also incredibly stupid. Istvaan V was his brilliant plan, after all.

What the hell was that transvestite comment supposed to be about? How is Dorn being a "pussy" a truth? Furthermore, even if truthful, how is the comment not meant as an insult (which we both know it was)? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the colossal disaster at Istvaan V primarily due to the fact that half the loyalist forces were in fact traitors in disguise who turned on their brothers mid-battle? So, again, how exactly does that failure fall on Dorn's shoulders? And, again, how exactly does that make him a quote/unquote "pussy"? Really, I'd just love to know the exact and thourough workings for your reasoning and logic...

Did you read the shorty story where Dorn damned near pisses himself just thinking about facing Curze?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
While of course a good part of your personality is just how you are as a person, but then another good part of your personality comes from your experiences, particularly during your earlier years. So what would the Primarchs be like had they spent their early years with Dadperor on Terra? Of course there would be some more serious changes to some of them (e.g. Angron not being completely mental) but others I'm not so sure about.

Just decided to throw this out because it suddenly dawned on me that they could potentially be completely different individuals and I had never thought about it before. So, opinions?

Big E would have taken them even more for granted and be even more absent, it might take a little longer but chaos would be able to whisper the primarchs dreams far longer before being found out making it possible more primarchs to turn their backs to the big E.

Some of them, sure. Horus likely would have ended up the same way he did. Same with Fulgrim. Magnus might have ended in the same situation if another Primarch came to hate psykers the way Russ did.

Curze, Angron, Lorgar, and Mortarian? They could have turned out the exact opposite as they did. Angron would have no friends to be bitter over. Mortarian would no longer have issues about failing to kill his adopted father. Lorgar would have been raised without religion. Curze would be sane. Curze along could have made it impossible for Chaos to corrupt more than a primarch or two at a time, if he had some semblance of control over his visions.

just because you're concerned about fighting someone whose scary in a fight does not make you a "pussy"

It does when you hide behind a wall and send better men to die in your place, which is what Dorn did.