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As an Ork player, Challenges aren't much of a problem for me as most of my characters have a Power klaw or are at least half decent in CC. But with the wider rules, it seems rather unfair for a couple of reasons:

1. It unfairly penalises codexes/lists who don't have close-combat heroes. Even if you reject the challange it's still a negative.

2. In a rather poetic way, aren't all models characters when you think about it?

Instead of the Challenge system being a specific buff for CC lists it can be replaced with Moments of Opportunity.

MoOs (OK, you can suggest a better name for it of you want to) are rare single-use buffs that you can use throughout your army. They represent fleeting openings in the fog of war where through luck or good leadership even the lowliest of soldiers can turn the tide of battle should be he lucky enough.


You can use MoOs on ANY model to:

Make a Challenge

Give the model the Marksman rule (firing at a model of the shooting side's choosing) for one turn only.

Improve (or re-roll?) Reserve rolls.

Re-roll a leadership test.


Each MoO can only be used once and is lost after the selected model has used it, even if it was a Challenge which was rejected. Armies gain MoOs at the start of the battle based on how many HQ units they have and if any of those HQ units are Unique. For example, an Ork list with 1 Warboss and 1 Ghazghkull Thraka has 3 MoOs as the list contains 2 HQ units, one of which is Unique.

Note that while the HQ units gain MoOs, any model in the army may make use of them. Models with Heavy weapons (including vehicles) can only use Marksman with one weapon and it snapfires.

Playing devil's advocate, I'd say that the one problem I have with MoOs from a narrative point of view is that it makes the models feel rather stupid. They're supposed to be doing these smart things all the time but they're normally lost in the abstract nature of the game so you don't normally see them. Putting special moments into the rules makes all the other moments feel bland by comparison; in a similar way to how adding campeign veterancy to Veterans of the Long War doesn't really make sense.

Guardsmen using a MoO to attack an Ork Nob.

The thing about this is that it gives a massive boost to armies with cheap HQs like orks (35 pt mek!) and the formations that include 3+ HQs, while hurting armies like 'nids who need their HQs to be expensive to be good. Also, how does this work with units like Commissars/Enginseers/Mekboys?

Obviously the solution would be to tie it to something g other than HQ models.

This concept is something to really work on,. It could make some very interesting games. It's a bit like the might points in Lord of the Rings, which are fascinating too.

One option could be to call it "Fortunes of War" or so.

Rather than it being a fixed amount of feats based on a starting number of HQs, you can sacrifice victory points to perform such feats.

I like the notion of sacrificing victory points, there is a similar system for it in apocalypse games. But you would need to only have it in kill points or Maelstrom games in order for it to mean anything really...

Ouch - using VP's seems like it would favor the player whose already ahead. In some ways, I'd like to see the opposite - when a player scores VP's, the opposing player gains one "Fortune of War". The opposing player only gains one FoW per event, regardless whether it was worth one or more VP's.

gnome_idea_what wrote:The thing about this is that it gives a massive boost to armies with cheap HQs like orks (35 pt mek!) and the formations that include 3+ HQs, while hurting armies like 'nids who need their HQs to be expensive to be good. Also, how does this work with units like Commissars/Enginseers/Mekboys?

You could have it attached to wounds- for example a Captain gains 1 MoO/FoW while a Chapter Master (or whatever the marine HQs are called nowadays) gain 2. As for the attached Meks the points are given to the Force Organisation Slot rather than the models- so you get a fixed amount of points regardless of how many bodyguards etc you attach to the main HQ model.

MagicJuggler wrote:One option could be to call it "Fortunes of War" or so.

Rather than it being a fixed amount of feats based on a starting number of HQs, you can sacrifice victory points to perform such feats.

Good idea with the name I did think of something like 'Command Feats' but that's more focused on the Reserve/Leadership side of its use rather than the winds of fate effecting the battle.

Basing them on sacrificed VPs sounds more balanced yet it also seems harsh to use up a whole VP on a rejected Challange or a snapshotted krak missile. You could perhaps get a fixed amount at the start of the battle like the Strategic Assests in the old Apoc book.

 Stormonu wrote:
Ouch - using VP's seems like it would favor the player whose already ahead. In some ways, I'd like to see the opposite - when a player scores VP's, the opposing player gains one "Fortune of War". The opposing player only gains one FoW per event, regardless whether it was worth one or more VP's.

Interesting, it sounds like the underdogs gain some plot armour

Sounds like something that might work in small games.