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As has been agreed the RAW is pretty clear as nothing in the rules state that the jumppack has been 'used' rules wise for the deepstrike, so can still be used in the assault phase.
There was a long discussion on RAI and HIWPI in another thread though so I thought I'd check YMDC but the only thread I could see was a shutdown thread about Ork rokkit packs.
Originally I was thinking RAI meant they had been used but Roknar's interpretation of the fluff convinced me otherwise:
Jancoran wrote:
I'm so dumbfounded by the whole conversation that I think I'll disengage.

As the Marines WALK down from the sky...apparently. Lol.

Anywho.

Roknar wrote:
No they're not. They come down from the skys crashing into the enemy with the momentum and impact of a speeding car. Or just straight into the enemy.
The latter results in a mishap in game rules and the former has you enter the game via deepstrike and then cause hammer of wrath attacks as you reach combat.
So the unit using deepstrike without counting as using their jumppack matches the lore to a T. In your case they come down with the fury of the skies and then just kinda waddle over into combat.

This interpretation has changed my mind over the intent of the rules and makes a lot of sense to me. Why would jump pack marines drop near the enemy then run over instead of just dropping onto the enemy from the skys like in the fluff?

What is your interpretation?

If marines could survive it without using the pack then they would be able to deep strike assault marines without the jump pack instead of the jump pack unlocking the ability as jump infantry to deep strike.

It should be clear enough that the pack has been used to do so.

Read what Roknar wrote. He isnt saying they arent using it fluff wise. What he is saying is that the DS then charge with packs represents them coming down with their jumppacks into the middle of the opponents unit.

Then why not just give them the option to do that instead? Other units like the mawloc have abilities to deep strike into damaging a unit so there's precedence for that rule to have been created. Honestly, I'd actually really like to see that as well.

That's a good point. It could be because the rules as written were already in place to allow it and so they didnt feel the need to write another USR. I'm not 100% either way on this but am currently leaning more towards the representation of them jumping straight into combat. It fits with the fluff and works RAW (although I am asking about RAI not RAW so that is irrelevent I suppose).
I too would like to see a rule like the one you mentioned.

Well they don't seem to be too shy about tossing in USRs all the time, I think the lack of clarity on the issue comes from how usually you can't assault after deep striking anyway. The other side of looking at how a rule that would allow them to sky fall (as it should be called) onto them would be that it'd likely give jump infantry the ability to assault after deep strike.

But this is turning a bit more towards fitting into proposed rules rather than here now.

 n0t_u wrote:
If marines could survive it without using the pack then they would be able to deep strike assault marines without the jump pack instead of the jump pack unlocking the ability as jump infantry to deep strike.

It should be clear enough that the pack has been used to do so.

It's not that they don't use the packs. It's a difference in how they use them.
Assume they didn't deepstrike and you use the pack to move 12 inch. Now they have to generate enough thrust to lift a space marine + jump pack into the air. That's not an easy task.
In contrast, deepstriking is similar to how we land a probe on a different planet.

In order to get it spaceborne we need a huge ass rocket with several stages, but in order to land that prob, we merely need to brake its fall with a fraction of the thrust and fuel required to launch it.
That's what they do when deepstriking. It's a controlled fall.

Take a look at this scene from space marine: At about 3:50.

You don't need to use the jump pack at all while falling. Not unless you need to make a course correction and you only need to use it a few feet of the ground to stop to brake the fall just enough.
Ideally you could deepstirke right into a unit like with the nids, but that's not what we got. Instead they give you hammer of wrath when charging a unit with the pack to represent the impact hit.

Besides, a drop pod assault is more violent then landing with a jump pack. Humans can't use drop pods because they wouldn't survive the landing.
I've heard of at least one actual person to survive a jump out of a plane who's parachute didn't open. So a space marine surviving a jump like that without even using the pack isn't really that much of a stretch, let alone braking the fall jsut before impact.

Arriving from deep strike means you cannot assault that turn. There are exceptions. Example one planetstrike all units with deep strike may assault same turn.
Almost every faction now also have a formation or special rule for one unit or another to allow deep striking, then assaulting.

I cannot vouche for all the factions, but I can say Space Marines and Chaos Space marines (IF they have a rule which allows jump units to deep strike and assault) can use their jump packs to do so.

Check the page for jump infantry, you choose when you use your jump pack, in either the movement/shooting phase or the assault phase. Not deployment.

Secondly, formations and special rules in the codex and supplements explicitly state that when arriving they may use their jump packs at whatever the formation says. Example, Skyhammer force, says, after deep striking the unit may use its jump packs in both phases, movement and assault. (That one also has an extra bonus for a double use)

And to cement the point home, if you arrive by deep strike, the rules in jump section state you may then use your jump packs to move further (IE run phase)

Meaning the deployment phase does not remove infantry types.

To be honest, I'm not sure how this argument first occurred other than maybe a bit of a mean-spirited or immature player didn't want to lose a squad to a jump infantry getting its hammer of wrath attacks. There might be an argument here for other factions (which I am not familiar with) but for Space marines and Chaos, they have wargear, unit types, and special rules which grant them these abilities. See assult marines profile, they have the jump infantry type, meaning they follow those rules. They also have the deep strike special rules, which is separate rule. Deep striking imposing limitations to all units, but it states what they are. And when codexs, or formations state they are exceptions, follow the codex or supplemt. As the core rulebook dictates.

Yeah, RAW I am not seeing anything that applies to deployment for use of Jump Packs. It's just did you use them in the movement phase or the assault phase.

Let's remember the game is a simulation of combat, and certain things do not resemble what they might in the real world.

They cant deep strike with a jump pack and here is why.

Warhammer 40k space marine, jumping out of a transport into a battle zone with a jump pack is strictly against the codex.

Just a few points.

1. Deeping Striking via Jump Pack in fluff is a high altitude jump from a Thunderhawk.

2. Jump Packs ignore physics, which means they most likely use a same grav pack to keep the user from face planting every time they attempt an assisted jump.

3. As such, it can be assumed that during an assisted jump, the user has no real control beyond setting up the ballistic arc before the leap and planning what to do after landing, actually on top of enemies might just be a hugely bad idea. Augmenting your rush into your enemy, however, might be a good tactic.

4. Per RAW, a Deep Striking unit that arrived has moved, and the ability to Deep Strike with a Jump Pack is greated by being Jump Infantry. Although there are no rules stating such, it is implied that Jump Infantry have used their Jump Packs to arrive and therefore cannot use thosd same packs to assault (RAW being the a unit cannot assault the same turn it arrived by deep strike).

5. Skyhammer Assault Marines can assault on the turn they arrived by deep strike.

6. Raven Guard can re-roll charge distance even after using their Jump Packs to move.

7. Raven Guard Skyhammer Assault Marines can arrive by Deep Strike and assault the same turn while re-rolling charge distance.

8. That one example means its a training issue, fluff-wise.

SJ

RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Poly Ranger wrote:
RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Is that even being argued? I mean, if your formation says hey you can assault after deep strike, why would it matter if your arriving via jump infantry, pod, teleport or what ever, did you deep strike? Yes, do you have a rule that says you can assault after it? No, then no you cant, you do? Then you can.

Poly Ranger wrote:
RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Like I said. For me RAI, RAW and HIWPI are all in line. Including that scene I posted from space marine.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Is that even being argued? I mean, if your formation says hey you can assault after deep strike, why would it matter if your arriving via jump infantry, pod, teleport or what ever, did you deep strike? Yes, do you have a rule that says you can assault after it? No, then no you cant, you do? Then you can.

Because jump packs add bonuses to assault if not used in the movement phase, so it is entierly relevent. The assaulting part is not in question, the jp bonus is what is in question RAI and HYWPI (but not RAW as that is clear).
I'm mostly with Roknar on this but want to see others views too.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Is that even being argued? I mean, if your formation says hey you can assault after deep strike, why would it matter if your arriving via jump infantry, pod, teleport or what ever, did you deep strike? Yes, do you have a rule that says you can assault after it? No, then no you cant, you do? Then you can.

The issue isn't whether or not they can assault, it's whether or not they can use their jump packs for the charge movement if they do assault.

 insaniak wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Is that even being argued? I mean, if your formation says hey you can assault after deep strike, why would it matter if your arriving via jump infantry, pod, teleport or what ever, did you deep strike? Yes, do you have a rule that says you can assault after it? No, then no you cant, you do? Then you can.

The issue isn't whether or not they can assault, it's whether or not they can use their jump packs for the charge movement if they do assault.

Ah ok, well lets step through it then, the jump infantry can deep strike right?

So they cant assault the turn they come in. Are you asking if the act of deep striking counts as using the jump pack? If so i would say yes they can. The deep strike rule does not say anything about them using up anything, nor does being jump infantry. If at all, it just means they enter the game like deep strike. Almost seems to be an issue of lore vs practical rules sort of thing.

Am i understanding the issue right?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
RAW wise there is nothing stopping using the JP for assault after deepstrike if the unit is given a rule allowing it to assault after DS. However I'm wondering what people think RAI and HYWPI.

Is that even being argued? I mean, if your formation says hey you can assault after deep strike, why would it matter if your arriving via jump infantry, pod, teleport or what ever, did you deep strike? Yes, do you have a rule that says you can assault after it? No, then no you cant, you do? Then you can.

The issue isn't whether or not they can assault, it's whether or not they can use their jump packs for the charge movement if they do assault.

Ah ok, well lets step through it then, the jump infantry can deep strike right?

So they cant assault the turn they come in. Are you asking if the act of deep striking counts as using the jump pack? If so i would say yes they can. The deep strike rule does not say anything about them using up anything, nor does being jump infantry. If at all, it just means they enter the game like deep strike. Almost seems to be an issue of lore vs practical rules sort of thing.

Am i understanding the issue right?

The issue is RAW vs RAI. RAW is pretty clear ( you can use the pack to charge after deepstriking), but OP is wondering what people think about RAI.
For me RAI is entirely in line with RAW. Jancoran (in an other thread) was convinced that RAI was that the model counts as having used the jump pack and thus HYWPI is that you can't use the jump pack move in the assault phase to benefit from a re-roll to charge and HoW. (For those units that are allowed to deepstrike and assault in the same turn).
For him the fluff already has them use the jump pack to deepstrike, ergo it makes no sense to then also use it in the assault phase.

And since my replies to him partly sparked this thread, you might want to scroll up to read my side of that argument.

When you say use the jump pack again are you talking in reference to the same turn?

Becuase again unless you have a rule that lets you assault after Deep strike the whole argument is moot.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you could use the jump pack more then once my it was just if you used it to move you could not use it for that assault.

The way it's coming off is its since per game thing. I don't use assault or jump infantry muh six

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Becuase again unless you have a rule that lets you assault after Deep strike the whole argument is moot.

Some formations grant that ability.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you could use the jump pack more then once my it was just if you used it to move you could not use it for that assault.

Nobody is saying you can only use the jump pack once. Just once per turn.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
When you say use the jump pack again are you talking in reference to the same turn?

Becuase again unless you have a rule that lets you assault after Deep strike the whole argument is moot.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you could use the jump pack more then once my it was just if you used it to move you could not use it for that assault.

The way it's coming off is its since per game thing. I don't use assault or jump infantry muh six

Do yourself a favour and read through the rules for jump infantry again lol. You can declare in which phase you are using the jump pack, which then lets you do certain things like move 12 or re-roll charge distance. But only in one phase per turn.
The question came up debating the value of a Night Lords raptor Talon vs a Black Legion Raptor talon. Both formations allow jump units to assault after deepstrike, but one has re-roll charge distance the other doesn't. Except it does because RAW you get to use the jump pack for assaulting, aka, re-roll charge.

It also gains hammer of wrath to represent using the pack to jump into the combat.

It would be interesting to actually get clarification on this.

I think for this, with what Roknar said about the 2 formations, its best if you invoked occums razor.

Did GW just overlook ones of their many many rules? Or is it intended that you cant use the jump pack after deep strike during assault because lore wise the jump pack is how you are getting on the field, and this formation says it and this one does not.

I would say the first is true, im betting what happened was some poor shmuck overlooked a rule, but intended it for both.

Just my 2 cents.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I think for this, with what Roknar said about the 2 formations, its best if you invoked occums razor.

Did GW just overlook ones of their many many rules? Or is it intended that you cant use the jump pack after deep strike during assault because lore wise the jump pack is how you are getting on the field, and this formation says it and this one does not.

I would say the first is true, im betting what happened was some poor shmuck overlooked a rule, but intended it for both.

Just my 2 cents.

Did you read my post with the space marine clip? My point was that while you use the jump pack to get on the field, there is a difference in how you use it when you are deepstriking as opposed to already being in the field.
It explains the ability to still use the pack for hammer of wrath imho.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I think for this, with what Roknar said about the 2 formations, its best if you invoked occums razor.

Did GW just overlook ones of their many many rules? Or is it intended that you cant use the jump pack after deep strike during assault because lore wise the jump pack is how you are getting on the field, and this formation says it and this one does not.

I would say the first is true, im betting what happened was some poor shmuck overlooked a rule, but intended it for both.

Just my 2 cents.

It's not even GW overlooking rules. The reroll of charge is granted to any unit in the Night Lords warband, it isn't just the raptor talon formation.

 n0t_u wrote:
Then why not just give them the option to do that instead? Other units like the mawloc have abilities to deep strike into damaging a unit so there's precedence for that rule to have been created. Honestly, I'd actually really like to see that as well.

Well, the Mawloc might have that rule but that then implies its a special case. In the Jump trooper case, you still have to charge into combat. This means the unit being assaulted can still declare Overwatch, which if you want to think about it rationally if a model was falling onto my face I'd probably pull the trigger a couple times before it got to me, especially if it was screaming down from jet engines on his backpack and yelling FOR THE EMPEROR at me.