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Rumor is GW is bringing back Roboute Guilliman for 40k. Before the storyline gets moving along, wondering what everyone thinks his reaction would be when he sees the present-day Imperium. Is this someone who is going to carry out orders from the High Lords of Terra?

Before stating my opinion, here's a quote from Know No Fear, describing his temperament: "He writes a great deal. He codifies everything. Information is power. Technical theory is victory... He uses a stylus by choice, recording in his own handwriting."

My answer is no, this is someone who would be horrified by the current state of the Imperium. He would demand changes that would make him hugely unpopular and go about implementing them in a way that brings him into direct conflict with entrenched power structures.

This is for a few reasons:

1) Guilliman was all about meritocracies, where office an honors were awarded to those who achieve them (not those who are born to them.) He's unlikely to see much value in the way the Imperium is currently organized.

2) Gulliman was all about knowledge, and codifying it. The Imperium likes it's secrets.

3) Gulliman was no religious zealot. He would likely abhor the Imperial Church and how it is used to control people.

4) Gulliman was in stasis for 10k years and died fighting for the Imperium. If he's brought back, he would have more moral authority than anyone else in the Imperium. If he wanted to get rid of other people in power, he could likely persuade a bunch of people to follow him.

These points bring me to the conclusion he could not simply reenter the present-day Imperium. Something else needs to change, or he would simply become another Horus.

Hopefully he is filled with massive amounts of grief and regret for thinking that neutering the most powerful force in the imperium was a good idea.

He shall return, but spend the next 1000 years searching for an appropriate row boat and, what I can only assume to be, a Taiwanese ladyboi, before suddenly getting the joke and starting a new heresy war in a rage.

Assuming he is not tied up defending Ultramar against one(or all) of the several Xenos threats at it borders, I'd agree that the current high lords wouldn't be to pleased to see him. However as a pragmatist he may well not want to change things to much beyond getting rid of a lot of the wastage and inefficiency the Imperium is famous for.

He would despise pretty much everything about the Imperium. It would be a fluff nightmare to bring back someone who knew about the Imperial Truth. Then again, this is the guy who made the SM's greatest weakness even worse.......

Well, he'd probably be executed as a heretic for insisting that the Emperor was not, in fact, a God, nor did he ever wish to be worshipped as one. This would occur the first time anyone ever says the word, "God-Emperor" or explains the Ecclesiarchy.

That would put an end to any future opinions he might have.

"But he's old enough to remember! They'd listen to him!" You might argue.

That's funny. You think the Imperium is open to the idea they might be wrong.

Also, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is old enough to remember the Emperor while he was alive. He keeps his opinions to himself because he knows what happens to heretics. Roboute doesn't know what happens to heretics.

"But he's a Primarch! He has the Ultramarines! He can fight back!"

Yeah, uh, this is the Imperium they'd be going against. Killing a Primarch and an entire Chapter of Marines is not beyond their capabilities.

Many Space Marine chapters don't acknowledge the Emperor as a god, and although that's not necessarily something they advertise, I think the Ecclesiarchy/Imperial apparatus generally knows this.

He was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and it's likely that his word would have sway over a great many Space Marine chapters, considering that so many are derived from the Ultramarines.

No doubt he's probably also a little too smart to provoke a war himself in such a way. Also, the Imperium at large is probably too smart to provoke such a war. Guilliman coming back from the dead is an asset, not a burden. I'm sure a number of Inquisitors will be sent to verify him/accompany him and report on him, but it's very unlikely anyone would openly start a conflict about it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
it's likely that his word would have sway over a great many Space Marine chapters, considering that so many are derived from the Ultramarines.

This.

I suspect somewhere in the region of Fully Half of the Space Marine Chapters are derived from his gene stock.

Now, how would he use this level of authority, not sure. I don't think he would start a war with the imperium, simply because he would remember the Horus Heresy. He might push for the creation of more Space Marines though. He would most likely look to making the Imperium more efficient in terms of manpower and production of equipment. I think if anything, he would look to start a new great crusade to cleanse the imperium of xenos.

66% of marines are Ultramarines successors.

He probably would be impressed that it lasted ten thousand years, then find ways to refine and improve it, and work within the system to clear out the red tape, onerous bureaucracy and improve the efficiencies of the important ministries for the war effort.

He is not stupid enough to start a civil war over the fact the people worship the Emperor - it would be something to deal with after the Galaxy is conquered.

With individuals like Huron Blackheart running around, he would probably be pretty happy the Codex breaking up the Legions worked as intended. If Huron Blackheart had instead ascended to lead, say, the Dark Angels legion, things probably wouldn't have been contained to just the area around the Maelstorm.

Aggressive pimp slapping of idiots at first for waste and inefficacy.

Than get to work fixing the broken dying monolith.
Also the space marines despite not being chapters of ultramarines descent would likely obey his orders.

So he would have huge sway if he needed but not likely make it obvious.

I'm one to consider him a traitor. Not the kind that turned to chaos but a traitor nonetheless. I believe no matter what he thinks of the Imperium he'll continue with his desire to have his own empire.

The more I think about it, the only way he could come back is if:

1) Abaddon sacks Terra and kills all the High Lords. He fills the power vacuum and makes massive structural changes.

2) The High Lords realize it's a bad idea to have him around and send him off to start Imperium Secundus. It's modeled after the Emperor's original vision and becomes an ally, of sorts.

But he's not walking back in and just filling the same role he once did. He would be a Heretic by the standards of the present-day Imperium.

He calls in all the successor chapters and reforges Imperium Secundus based around Ultramar. He then tells the High Lord of Terra to take a long walk of a short pier.

Ultramarines become their own faction and the other original legions can finally get their own codexes free from the dominion of the smurfs.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I'm one to consider him a traitor. Not the kind that turned to chaos but a traitor nonetheless. I believe no matter what he thinks of the Imperium he'll continue with his desire to have his own empire.

He never desired his own Empire. The 500 worlds fed the Imperial Warmachine as a whole, not just the Ultramarines. In Unremembered Empire, he bent over backwards to avoid crowning himself Emperor of Imperium Secundus, despite at the time being the only plausible choice.

The five hundred worlds was part of his desire to preserve human culture and civilization from the past, and to honour Konor. The Ultramarines may have policed and maintained order on those worlds, but they were still members of the Emperor's Imperium first and foremost.

Guilliman was easily the most loyal out of all the sons - of all of them, he was actually in a position to take the Imperium, and he didn't. Between him and Malcador, the foundations were laid for the Imperium to last and grow for ten thousand years.

for starters he would not be the traitor, the Imperium as it stands now is the true traitor, Horus betrayed the Imperium because he saw what the Imperium would become, his mistake was thinking it was the Emperor who did this to the Imperium but in reality it was him betraying and (killing) the Emperor that turned the Empire into what he feared, his actions were a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, meanwhile Guilliman along with Lion El' Johnson would be abhored to see what has become of the Imperium (for various different reasons) and if both those Primarch's came back, the two of them along with their successor chapters could bring the Imperium to their knees along with various Imperial forces that would side with them too.

mind you Gulliman would do this if for no other reason then to bring order back to the Imperium.

Imperium Tricundus

 Pouncey wrote:
Well, he'd probably be executed as a heretic for insisting that the Emperor was not, in fact, a God, nor did he ever wish to be worshipped as one. This would occur the first time anyone ever says the word, "God-Emperor" or explains the Ecclesiarchy.

That would put an end to any future opinions he might have.

"But he's old enough to remember! They'd listen to him!" You might argue.

That's funny. You think the Imperium is open to the idea they might be wrong.

Also, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is old enough to remember the Emperor while he was alive. He keeps his opinions to himself because he knows what happens to heretics. Roboute doesn't know what happens to heretics.

"But he's a Primarch! He has the Ultramarines! He can fight back!"

Yeah, uh, this is the Imperium they'd be going against. Killing a Primarch and an entire Chapter of Marines is not beyond their capabilities.

Is this what happened to Vulkan when he was discovered?

I think there's a fairly good chance this wouldn't happen. Not to mention the sheer presence of a Primarch could easily win over vast swathes of the Imperium, especially one as famous as Roboute (he's a galaxy renowned tourist attraction, his corpse alone is known across the Imperium). And let's face it, if a mortal man (Sebastian Thor) can prompt full rebellion against the Church, I'm sure Guilliman could too...

...if he ever bothered to counter it. When Guilliman returns to his Ultramarines, and first hears about this "God Emperor", he might decide not to raise a fuss - it unifies the Imperium, and that's what he needs. A unified Imperium that he can begin to safeguard and establish a baseline of protection as per his own military conquests.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Well, he'd probably be executed as a heretic for insisting that the Emperor was not, in fact, a God, nor did he ever wish to be worshipped as one. This would occur the first time anyone ever says the word, "God-Emperor" or explains the Ecclesiarchy.

That would put an end to any future opinions he might have.

"But he's old enough to remember! They'd listen to him!" You might argue.

That's funny. You think the Imperium is open to the idea they might be wrong.

Also, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is old enough to remember the Emperor while he was alive. He keeps his opinions to himself because he knows what happens to heretics. Roboute doesn't know what happens to heretics.

"But he's a Primarch! He has the Ultramarines! He can fight back!"

Yeah, uh, this is the Imperium they'd be going against. Killing a Primarch and an entire Chapter of Marines is not beyond their capabilities.

Is this what happened to Vulkan when he was discovered?

I think there's a fairly good chance this wouldn't happen. Not to mention the sheer presence of a Primarch could easily win over vast swathes of the Imperium, especially one as famous as Roboute (he's a galaxy renowned tourist attraction, his corpse alone is known across the Imperium). And let's face it, if a mortal man (Sebastian Thor) can prompt full rebellion against the Church, I'm sure Guilliman could too...

...if he ever bothered to counter it. When Guilliman returns to his Ultramarines, and first hears about this "God Emperor", he might decide not to raise a fuss - it unifies the Imperium, and that's what he needs. A unified Imperium that he can begin to safeguard and establish a baseline of protection as per his own military conquests.

problem is Gulliman was against the God Emperor bit and such, he was the Emperor's left hand man for enforcing his laws and such. and Gulliman is not one to bring about order by disobeying his fathers wishes.

Asterios wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Well, he'd probably be executed as a heretic for insisting that the Emperor was not, in fact, a God, nor did he ever wish to be worshipped as one. This would occur the first time anyone ever says the word, "God-Emperor" or explains the Ecclesiarchy.

That would put an end to any future opinions he might have.

"But he's old enough to remember! They'd listen to him!" You might argue.

That's funny. You think the Imperium is open to the idea they might be wrong.

Also, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is old enough to remember the Emperor while he was alive. He keeps his opinions to himself because he knows what happens to heretics. Roboute doesn't know what happens to heretics.

"But he's a Primarch! He has the Ultramarines! He can fight back!"

Yeah, uh, this is the Imperium they'd be going against. Killing a Primarch and an entire Chapter of Marines is not beyond their capabilities.

Is this what happened to Vulkan when he was discovered?

I think there's a fairly good chance this wouldn't happen. Not to mention the sheer presence of a Primarch could easily win over vast swathes of the Imperium, especially one as famous as Roboute (he's a galaxy renowned tourist attraction, his corpse alone is known across the Imperium). And let's face it, if a mortal man (Sebastian Thor) can prompt full rebellion against the Church, I'm sure Guilliman could too...

...if he ever bothered to counter it. When Guilliman returns to his Ultramarines, and first hears about this "God Emperor", he might decide not to raise a fuss - it unifies the Imperium, and that's what he needs. A unified Imperium that he can begin to safeguard and establish a baseline of protection as per his own military conquests.

problem is Gulliman was against the God Emperor bit and such, he was the Emperor's left hand man for enforcing his laws and such. and Gulliman is not one to bring about order by disobeying his fathers wishes.

But stirring up a fuss so soon would not be tactically wise. Guilliman's organisational skills were brilliant - I'm sure he wouldn't overlook the fact that the church binds the Imperium together.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Well, he'd probably be executed as a heretic for insisting that the Emperor was not, in fact, a God, nor did he ever wish to be worshipped as one. This would occur the first time anyone ever says the word, "God-Emperor" or explains the Ecclesiarchy.

That would put an end to any future opinions he might have.

"But he's old enough to remember! They'd listen to him!" You might argue.

That's funny. You think the Imperium is open to the idea they might be wrong.

Also, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is old enough to remember the Emperor while he was alive. He keeps his opinions to himself because he knows what happens to heretics. Roboute doesn't know what happens to heretics.

"But he's a Primarch! He has the Ultramarines! He can fight back!"

Yeah, uh, this is the Imperium they'd be going against. Killing a Primarch and an entire Chapter of Marines is not beyond their capabilities.

Is this what happened to Vulkan when he was discovered?

I think there's a fairly good chance this wouldn't happen. Not to mention the sheer presence of a Primarch could easily win over vast swathes of the Imperium, especially one as famous as Roboute (he's a galaxy renowned tourist attraction, his corpse alone is known across the Imperium). And let's face it, if a mortal man (Sebastian Thor) can prompt full rebellion against the Church, I'm sure Guilliman could too...

...if he ever bothered to counter it. When Guilliman returns to his Ultramarines, and first hears about this "God Emperor", he might decide not to raise a fuss - it unifies the Imperium, and that's what he needs. A unified Imperium that he can begin to safeguard and establish a baseline of protection as per his own military conquests.

problem is Gulliman was against the God Emperor bit and such, he was the Emperor's left hand man for enforcing his laws and such. and Gulliman is not one to bring about order by disobeying his fathers wishes.

But stirring up a fuss so soon would not be tactically wise. Guilliman's organisational skills were brilliant - I'm sure he wouldn't overlook the fact that the church binds the Imperium together.

as far as he would be concerned the Church would go against the Emperor, who was wiping out religions if you remember, Religions were considered a danger, so he would see the new religion as a threat too.

I agree that Guilliman, as the governor/ruler one of the primarchs, would know better than to immediately begin opposing the ecclesiarchy. Most of the other loyalists on the other hand would probably oppose that immediately and thus likely be called heretics.

I don't think the Imperium could kill Guilliman if he went independent. He is basically garunteed the Ultramarines and the worlds of Ultramar, along with who knows how many successor chapters. To my knowledge he is one of the 2 most known/loved primarchs (alongside Sangie). Odds are good most loyal chapters would refuse to fight a primarch except for the really bloodthirsty ones (Minotaurs, Flesh Tearers etc). And finally, are you expecting me to believe the Imperium could survive such a war with Magnus going down on Fenris, Abaddon breaking through Cadia, and all the all the usual xeno business.

 Pouncey wrote:
Well, he'd probably be executed as a heretic for insisting that the Emperor was not, in fact, a God, nor did he ever wish to be worshipped as one. This would occur the first time anyone ever says the word, "God-Emperor" or explains the Ecclesiarchy.

That would put an end to any future opinions he might have.

"But he's old enough to remember! They'd listen to him!" You might argue.

That's funny. You think the Imperium is open to the idea they might be wrong.

Also, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is old enough to remember the Emperor while he was alive. He keeps his opinions to himself because he knows what happens to heretics. Roboute doesn't know what happens to heretics.

"But he's a Primarch! He has the Ultramarines! He can fight back!"

Yeah, uh, this is the Imperium they'd be going against. Killing a Primarch and an entire Chapter of Marines is not beyond their capabilities.

I think Guilliman has enough sense to avoid stepping on enough toes to warrant the entire Imperium killing one of it's greatest heroes. He was a master statesman. He'd probably be able to accurately assess the political situation of the Imperium within a day.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

I think Guilliman has enough sense to avoid stepping on enough toes to warrant the entire Imperium killing one of it's greatest heroes. He was a master statesman. He'd probably be able to accurately assess the political situation of the Imperium within a day.

This!

I don't see why the return of Robert Guilliman has to be couched in these odd apocalyptic ideas.

He would probably try to size up the current leaders of the Imperium, and adapt his methods accordingly.

What we know of him, points to a man who lacks much of the psychological baggage of his fellow Primarchs.

He's got nothing to "prove." Hell, since the Imperium thinks Dad is a God, than technically Guilliman can play up the aspect that would make him a "Son of God"

Which Ecclesiarch or Inquisitor has got the nerve to declare Guilliman a heretic? I'd like to see him or her last a day before someone tries to knock'em out.