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So Wrath of Magnus ended with dissappointment: Magnus was banished by Grimnar's Axe of Khorne after they spent ages telling us how he couldn't be harmed by imperial weapons.
Oh but Grimnar's Axe was originally a sword of Khorne Yes but it has been reforged, so either it is an Imperial weapon now or Grimnar is a heretic.

Despite the rather awful ending the writers do hint that this was 'just as planned' and that Magnus will return to finish what he started.

So I ask: would a future fall of Fenris alongside the fall of Cadia and Terra make up for GW, once again, using BS ex machina to save the day from a foe who is far more powerful than anything the Imperium can throw at them?

 mrhappyface wrote:
So Wrath of Magnus ended with dissappointment: Magnus was banished by Grimnar's Axe of Khorne after they spent ages telling us how he couldn't be harmed by imperial weapons.
Oh but Grimnar's Axe was originally a sword of Khorne Yes but it has been reforged, so either it is an Imperial weapon now or Grimnar is a heretic.

Despite the rather awful ending the writers do hint that this was 'just as planned' and that Magnus will return to finish what he started.

So I ask: would a future fall of Fenris alongside the fall of Cadia and Terra make up for GW, once again, using BS ex machina to save the day from a foe who is far more powerful than anything the Imperium can throw at them?

no because there's nothing to make up, if you were expecting "TOTAL VICTORY FOR CHAOS! AS CHAOS DESTROYS UTTERLY ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR SPACE MARINE CHAPTERS WITH IT'S OWN CODEX!" you where being downright foolish. Let's look at the end result. first of all the ritual Magnus was doing it turns out was completed, the summery I'm reading isn't clear (it's in horriable english) but it sounds like the palnet of the sorcerers was brought to real space, and there may be some big time warp effects, that I wager relate to "the path of blood" thats been mentioned in chaos sources re the 13th black crusade (basicly advancing the eye of terror to terra)

secondly, Fenris is wrecked, the system itself had the population decimated, as the inqusition apparently killed anyone whose got an inkling of chaos. so chances are it's a less then ideal recruiting world, which hurts the space wolves more then it would any other chapter. The Space Wolves survived but it sure looks like they're bleeding, Magnus wanted to cause a Psychalogical wound and I strongly suspect he suceeded.

The Space Wolves have always borderlined Heresy, they're mutant monsters that regularly break the rules and laws of the Imperium but the Imperium is under Martial Law and is constantly at war, the Imperium needs what the Space Marines represent so much that Space Marine Chapters get away with absolutely everything short of an actual revolt against the Imperium.
When the Librarius edict was handed down the Wolves claimed that Rune Priests were Shamans, not Librarians.
In recent times the Ecclesiarchy tried to investigate the Wolves for pagan worship and shamanistic rituals. The Wolves told them to sodd off. They collected some battle cruisers and tried a little more forcefully, the Wolves opened fire on them then told them to sodd off. They sent the Sisters of Battle to 'Do a man's job' the Wolves told them to sodd off over a three week battle.
Grimnars Axe has come under question before, he got a heap of seals on it then told the Inquisition to sodd off.
When the Grey Knights wanted to purge a Daemon tainted planet of the local population who'd witnessed the incursion the Wolves got in the way and went to war with a loyalist 'chapter' that is supposedly beyond reproach, rather than admitting the Grey Knights existed and were fighting with the Wolves the High Lords of Terra dragged another chapter in for a second attempt and when that also failed the Imperium swept it under the rug.
Space Wolves are like the Tau in a lot of respects - they don't go out of their way to attack the Imperium, they actually create a buffer between the imperium and bigger dangers, like the Tau they're powerful enough that the Imperium won't screw with them with without them being declared an immediate threat, unlike the Tau the Wolves also have the buffer of being 'heroes' in more informed systems. Somebody asked how the Wolves would fare against the Minotaurs, my prediction is that the Minotaurs would wipe out one or two Great Companies, then the remaining ten would link up and wipe the Minotaurs out of existance.

Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero, Magnus will get his revenge when the Wolves fall to Khorne and then find out his revenge didn't work out because the Wolves all became Khorne Daemon Kin that look an aweful lot like Wulfen and love spilling 'Blood For The Blood God'.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

It has merit.
Khorne got the last laugh in this battle but Khorne doesn't play the long game like Tzeentch does, maybe Tzeench is playing the Wolves and ThouSons off against each other like Sidius did with Douku and Anakin then Anakin and Luke.

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

except in this case it seems Magnus DID manage to suceed. the book outright says it. and it's pretty tzeetchy that Magnus may have in fact planned around the wolves eventually winning.

Magnus managed to succeed in the same way every chaos force has succeeded before him: Imperial victory with a final 'just as planned' paragraph in the book. GW has done this so much that it has now become a standing joke, so many chaos forces have 'won' without their 'victories' actually coming to fruition.

As for what I expected/wanted, I knew chaos could not destroy the space wolves but, as discussed on these very forums, Fenris could have easily been destroyed or corrupted behond recognition without destroying the chapter. Much like the DA the SW could have become fleet based and their rage at this could perhaps lead to greater mutation within the wolves, that would have been a satisfying end.
As it is, unless his revenge comes to fruition during the 13th black crusade, it will be another false promise that chaos have 'lost but sowed the seeds of corruption mwahaha!' This kind of writing is what made a lot of people think of chaos as some kind of cartoon villain that is no threat at all.

To me it just seems that history has repeated itself as it has many times before.

He's a filthy heretic for reforging and using a daemon weapon and for invoking the same old imperial plot armour. Whenever they write up the challenge a bit too strong for them the imperium side just magically wins from nowhere.

The wolves are really pushing the heresy line a bit more with each new bit of fluff it seems.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Magnus managed to succeed in the same way every chaos force has succeeded before him: Imperial victory with a final 'just as planned' paragraph in the book. GW has done this so much that it has now become a standing joke, so many chaos forces have 'won' without their 'victories' actually coming to fruition.

As for what I expected/wanted, I knew chaos could not destroy the space wolves but, as discussed on these very forums, Fenris could have easily been destroyed or corrupted behond recognition without destroying the chapter. Much like the DA the SW could have become fleet based and their rage at this could perhaps lead to greater mutation within the wolves, that would have been a satisfying end.
As it is, unless his revenge comes to fruition during the 13th black crusade, it will be another false promise that chaos have 'lost but sowed the seeds of corruption mwahaha!' This kind of writing is what made a lot of people think of chaos as some kind of cartoon villain that is no threat at all.

To me it just seems that history has repeated itself as it has many times before.

ok first of all given how much time and effort GW has spent the last god knows how long saying how the wolves need the population of fenris to "reproduce" expecting them to become fleet based (BTW I could be wrong but didn't Magnus obliterate most of the SW fleet?) chapter is a bit silly. as it is Fenris' population ahs been culled. GW's not said one way or another, but it's possiable the space wolves are, for the immediate future unable to effectivly replace their losses. the space wolves in fact could be doomed to dwindle slowely, not sure if/when recruiting new members would be viable, (please keep in mind I'm basing my stuff on summeries of the book, having not had a chance to read it yet) and if that is the case, I'd say Magnus is definatly having a last laugh.

that said, 40k has ALWAYS been about 13 minutes to midnight, great disasters and their implications are always "just on the immediate horizen" I don't really expect that to change


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
He's a filthy heretic for reforging and using a daemon weapon and for invoking the same old imperial plot armour. Whenever they write up the challenge a bit too strong for them the imperium side just magically wins from nowhere.

The wolves are really pushing the heresy line a bit more with each new bit of fluff it seems.

new fluff? that axe being a reforged chaos weapon has been around since 2nd edition, and the space wolves are hardly unique in that regard. the Gauntlets of Ultramar are also noted as once belonging to a champion of chaos just off the top of my head

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

Magnus has achieved his goals both times he's attacked Fenris, though.

BrianDavion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
He's a filthy heretic for reforging and using a daemon weapon and for invoking the same old imperial plot armour. Whenever they write up the challenge a bit too strong for them the imperium side just magically wins from nowhere.

The wolves are really pushing the heresy line a bit more with each new bit of fluff it seems.

new fluff? that axe being a reforged chaos weapon has been around since 2nd edition, and the space wolves are hardly unique in that regard. the Gauntlets of Ultramar are also noted as once belonging to a champion of chaos just off the top of my head

Being a weapon wielded by a chaos champion and being a full blown daemon weapon are different things.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
He's a filthy heretic for reforging and using a daemon weapon and for invoking the same old imperial plot armour. Whenever they write up the challenge a bit too strong for them the imperium side just magically wins from nowhere.

The wolves are really pushing the heresy line a bit more with each new bit of fluff it seems.

new fluff? that axe being a reforged chaos weapon has been around since 2nd edition, and the space wolves are hardly unique in that regard. the Gauntlets of Ultramar are also noted as once belonging to a champion of chaos just off the top of my head

Being a weapon wielded by a chaos champion and being a full blown daemon weapon are different things.

does it specificly say deamon weapon? I'm curious as to the exact quote?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
He's a filthy heretic for reforging and using a daemon weapon and for invoking the same old imperial plot armour. Whenever they write up the challenge a bit too strong for them the imperium side just magically wins from nowhere.

The wolves are really pushing the heresy line a bit more with each new bit of fluff it seems.

new fluff? that axe being a reforged chaos weapon has been around since 2nd edition, and the space wolves are hardly unique in that regard. the Gauntlets of Ultramar are also noted as once belonging to a champion of chaos just off the top of my head

Being a weapon wielded by a chaos champion and being a full blown daemon weapon are different things.

does it specificly say deamon weapon? I'm curious as to the exact quote?

Champions of Fenris supplement if memory serves, the Space Wolves Codex just says it "Thrums with the power of the Warp" and just calls its original form a "baleful axe".

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
He's a filthy heretic for reforging and using a daemon weapon and for invoking the same old imperial plot armour. Whenever they write up the challenge a bit too strong for them the imperium side just magically wins from nowhere.

The wolves are really pushing the heresy line a bit more with each new bit of fluff it seems.

new fluff? that axe being a reforged chaos weapon has been around since 2nd edition, and the space wolves are hardly unique in that regard. the Gauntlets of Ultramar are also noted as once belonging to a champion of chaos just off the top of my head

Being a weapon wielded by a chaos champion and being a full blown daemon weapon are different things.

does it specificly say deamon weapon? I'm curious as to the exact quote?

Champions of Fenris supplement if memory serves, the Space Wolves Codex just says it "Thrums with the power of the Warp" and just calls its original form a "baleful axe".

Champions of Fenris in no way shape or form says it was a deamon weapon, the rules for the axe also suggest it's not likely one. khorne blessed, almost certainly,

Fair call.
Chaos made and Chaos blessed but not daemon souled does make for a big difference.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Gauntlets of Ultramar are also noted as once belonging to a champion of chaos just off the top of my head

Retconned. They were Ultramarine artifacts that were stolen. Marneus took them back. It's depicted in the heraldry on his custom landraider.

I thought Roboute got them back, and they are just handed from Chapter Master to Chapter Master.

 Ashenwyte wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

Magnus has achieved his goals both times he's attacked Fenris, though.

This. Ignoring the gap of eight millennia (which Magnus, an immortal daemon king who dwells in the timey-wimey Eye of Terror can easily do), his two assaults on Fenris even fit together. The first destroyed the geneseed research that would have freed the Wolves from their dependence upon Fenrisian initiates, the second has all-but annihilated the population of Fenris.

(And no, there is still no good answer to the question of how the original Terran Space Wolves were able to survive implantation without falling victim to the same fate as the Wolf Brothers; ah well...)

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Ashenwyte wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

Magnus has achieved his goals both times he's attacked Fenris, though.

This. Ignoring the gap of eight millennia (which Magnus, an immortal daemon king who dwells in the timey-wimey Eye of Terror can easily do), his two assaults on Fenris even fit together. The first destroyed the geneseed research that would have freed the Wolves from their dependence upon Fenrisian initiates, the second has all-but annihilated the population of Fenris.

(And no, there is still no good answer to the question of how the original Terran Space Wolves were able to survive implantation without falling victim to the same fate as the Wolf Brothers; ah well...)

Answer: The problem isn't the Fenrisians.

pm713 wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Ashenwyte wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

Magnus has achieved his goals both times he's attacked Fenris, though.

This. Ignoring the gap of eight millennia (which Magnus, an immortal daemon king who dwells in the timey-wimey Eye of Terror can easily do), his two assaults on Fenris even fit together. The first destroyed the geneseed research that would have freed the Wolves from their dependence upon Fenrisian initiates, the second has all-but annihilated the population of Fenris.

(And no, there is still no good answer to the question of how the original Terran Space Wolves were able to survive implantation without falling victim to the same fate as the Wolf Brothers; ah well...)

Answer: The problem isn't the Fenrisians.

Nobody has suggested it was.

(Aren't glib one-line replies annoying?)

 Lord Fishface wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Ashenwyte wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Magnus is never going to get his revenge on the Space Wolves in the same way the Wolves burned Prospero,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tzeentch hasn't helped engineer things in this manner.

The more any follower of Tzeentch seems to want something, the more the Old Changer of Ways seems to take pleasure at jerkin his puppy's chain.

Magnus may literally be set up to fail again and again and again..... but always get really close.

Magnus has achieved his goals both times he's attacked Fenris, though.

This. Ignoring the gap of eight millennia (which Magnus, an immortal daemon king who dwells in the timey-wimey Eye of Terror can easily do), his two assaults on Fenris even fit together. The first destroyed the geneseed research that would have freed the Wolves from their dependence upon Fenrisian initiates, the second has all-but annihilated the population of Fenris.

(And no, there is still no good answer to the question of how the original Terran Space Wolves were able to survive implantation without falling victim to the same fate as the Wolf Brothers; ah well...)

Answer: The problem isn't the Fenrisians.

Nobody has suggested it was.

(Aren't glib one-line replies annoying?)

I seem to recall something about the Canis Helix being warped by Chaos just after Russ was united with his legion and declared the Fenris system as Wolf HQ.
Maybe I'm just remembering a conversation I had with a mate but it's just gnawing on my mind.