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Grey, very very dark grey.
Logan Grimnar - widely regarded as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium makes a hobby out of destroying Inquisition vessels and beheading Inquisition delegates, for the crime of being Inquisition delegates.
Sounds like a fun fellow.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey, very very dark grey.
Logan Grimnar - widely regarded as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium makes a hobby out of destroying Inquisition vessels and beheading Inquisition delegates, for the crime of being Inquisition delegates.
Sounds like a fun fellow.

And he's widely regarded as one of the more reasonable Chapter Masters!

Slight side-track, do the Salamanders have a darker side? They seem to be the most noblebright of the original Legions and I was wondering if I was missing something (apart from the whole enjoying burning their enemies alive, which is a pretty inhumane way of killing them).

They have this whole "Promethean Cult" it sure sounds all noble and all, but it borders heretical fire worship and has passed a long time ago into obsessive insanity if you ask me.

 oldzoggy wrote:
They have this whole "Promethean Cult" it sure sounds all noble and all, but it borders heretical fire worship and has passed a long time ago into insanity if you ask me.

Sounds Tzeentchian to me he's big on flames...

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Recent GW fluff has drawn an explicit, clear, black and white line between good and evil. The Imperium is good and Chaos is evil.

I kinda disagree with GW's simplistic mono-axial approach. In D&D they already had two axes of alignment, Order vs Chaos and Good vs Evil.

What do you guys think? Should be a simple clean line, or should it be more complex?

I think GW fiction suffers from unreliable narrators.

OF COURSE the Imperium is bad. It's 40k - everyone and everything is bad. Point to one sympathetic protagonist in any story.

I should say that I don't think Chaos (or even their followers) are or should be absolutely evil as well. 40k thrives on grey areas.

The Chaos Space Marines are fighting a Miltonian struggle against a false God-Emperor and his fanatical followers. In their desperation for victory, they have turned to (and been manipulated by) forces far beyond their control.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Really depends on who's side you're on. I think GW would do well to remember that (rather than just going down the 'they're all INSAAAANE' route...).

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey, very very dark grey.
Logan Grimnar - widely regarded as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium makes a hobby out of destroying Inquisition vessels and beheading Inquisition delegates, for the crime of being Inquisition delegates.
Sounds like a fun fellow.

Considering the Inquisition has a habit of slaughtering people for looking wrong, or looking at the inquisition wrong, of spelling their name wrong, or saying the wrong thing, or... h you get the point. I'd say it's not such a bad thing.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey, very very dark grey.
Logan Grimnar - widely regarded as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium makes a hobby out of destroying Inquisition vessels and beheading Inquisition delegates, for the crime of being Inquisition delegates.
Sounds like a fun fellow.

everyone needs a hobby.

Just for the record, it's worth adding that Logan Grimnar's character as a comparatively nice guy who doesn't approve of exterminating whole planets on the off chance they have been tainted by Chaos was established back in 1992, in the fluff for the First War for Armageddon.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey, very very dark grey.
Logan Grimnar - widely regarded as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium makes a hobby out of destroying Inquisition vessels and beheading Inquisition delegates, for the crime of being Inquisition delegates.
Sounds like a fun fellow.

Well he does have good reason: after the 1st war of Armegeddon the Inquisition had the population killed , any Guardsman put into work camps and space marines mind wiped. Grimnar tride to evacuate some by smuggling survivors to nearby worlds but the inquisition had those worlds purged as well. I hate Grimnar as a Mary Sue character but his hatred for the Inquisition is one of his few redeeming characteristics.

As for the Imperium Good Chaos bad, if that is the interpretation you get from the fluff then you aren't reading enough fluff (it sounds like you are reading the propaganda in the Space Marine Codex, Imperial Guard Codex, etc. Any novels on 40k show that Imperium is dangerously close to complete heresy: they lie to the innocents (for their own good), they slaughter any mutants (for the Imperium's good) and they murder millions of their own who come into contact with Chaos (for their own good). Chaos is of course pure evil and will win no matter what: in order to destroy chaos, the Imperium must fall to chaos (as they slowly are doing).

"When will you fools understand: it is all in service to chaos!"

Also see my signiture for more proof the Imperium is falling to Chaos:

No.

Hmmm...is living under fascism better than being trapped in hell? Certainly depends on my station in hell, but yes the Imperium is inarguably "more good" than Chaos.

TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
Hmmm...is living under fascism better than being trapped in hell? Certainly depends on my station in hell, but yes the Imperium is inarguably "more good" than Chaos.

At least in Hell there are Daemon BDS orgies swimming in seas if Cocaine. Sure you'll be dead by the end but boy you'll have lived.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey, very very dark grey.
Logan Grimnar - widely regarded as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium makes a hobby out of destroying Inquisition vessels and beheading Inquisition delegates, for the crime of being Inquisition delegates.
Sounds like a fun fellow.

Well he does have good reason: after the 1st war of Armegeddon the Inquisition had the population killed , any Guardsman put into work camps and space marines mind wiped. Grimnar tride to evacuate some by smuggling survivors to nearby worlds but the inquisition had those worlds purged as well. I hate Grimnar as a Mary Sue character but his hatred for the Inquisition is one of his few redeeming characteristics.

As for the Imperium Good Chaos bad, if that is the interpretation you get from the fluff then you aren't reading enough fluff (it sounds like you are reading the propaganda in the Space Marine Codex, Imperial Guard Codex, etc. Any novels on 40k show that Imperium is dangerously close to complete heresy: they lie to the innocents (for their own good), they slaughter any mutants (for the Imperium's good) and they murder millions of their own who come into contact with Chaos (for their own good). Chaos is of course pure evil and will win no matter what: in order to destroy chaos, the Imperium must fall to chaos (as they slowly are doing).

"When will you fools understand: it is all in service to chaos!"

Also see my signiture for more proof the Imperium is falling to Chaos:

I wonder if people on this site sling Mary Sue about as an actual insult, an ironic insult or because they don't know what it means.
Grimnar doesn't actually have a story before becoming a chapter master and the only real story about him as a chapter master depicts him as a self righteous jerk and a cranky, grudge bearing child in equal measure then slaps the "hero" label on him.
That's hardly Mary Sue material.
Wise, cunning and noble are used in the codex but compared to the novel fluff you'd wonder if they're talking about the same person.

He's the chapter master that takes no nonsense from the inquisition (you know that group who murders people for speaking out against them) and fights the most powerful beings in the galaxy without working up a sweat (you know, because of his axe of Khorne that of course he's allowed to keep), he rides in to save the day like the swashbuckling Mary Sue he is.

What the hell are you reading that portrays the Imperium as good?

 Pouncey wrote:
What the hell are you reading that portrays the Imperium as good?

That's what I want to know too

Should stress though that just because the Imperium is a terrible space dictatorship, doesn't mean there aren't good people working within it.

 mrhappyface wrote:
He's the chapter master that takes no nonsense from the inquisition (you know that group who murders people for speaking out against them) and fights the most powerful beings in the galaxy without working up a sweat (you know, because of his axe of Khorne that of course he's allowed to keep), he rides in to save the day like the swashbuckling Mary Sue he is.

Grimnar murders people he doesn't know because they were drafted into an allied faction he doesn't like, he wants the heads of the heads of the Inquisition, that's fair for the reasons you stated, he'll settle for the massed heads of people who have no choice in their position to stick the middle finger at the guys he can't reach - that's hardly justified, but as another poster said "Everyone needs a hobby".
He gets away with it for the same reason he gets to keep his beloved axe (actually I think the fact that it's weighed down in "Wolfity wolf" rather than Khorne death masks might also have a bit to do with that) and the same reason he can't reach the heads of the Inquisition, because the Imperium is as corrupt as it gets and stupid enough to dissolve into civil war if two factions like that decided to take a proper crack at each other.

As for Magnus, you either didn't read the fluff or think I didn't.
Grimnar didn't beat Magnus or even truly fight him. He blindsided him, scored one wound - because Khorne decided to screw Tzeench over - then got backhanded like he didn't matter over a cliff/bluff/snow drift, TDA armour and all.
The rest was Khorne.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
He's the chapter master that takes no nonsense from the inquisition (you know that group who murders people for speaking out against them) and fights the most powerful beings in the galaxy without working up a sweat (you know, because of his axe of Khorne that of course he's allowed to keep), he rides in to save the day like the swashbuckling Mary Sue he is.

Grimnar murders people he doesn't know because they were drafted into an allied faction he doesn't like, he wants the heads of the heads of the Inquisition, that's fair for the reasons you stated, he'll settle for the massed heads of people who have no choice in their position to stick the middle finger at the guys he can't reach - that's hardly justified, but as another poster said "Everyone needs a hobby"

But... that's just how war works. Like, in general.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

As for Magnus, you either didn't read the fluff or think I didn't.
Grimnar didn't beat Magnus or even truly fight him. He blindsided him, scored one wound - because Khorne decided to screw Tzeench over - then got backhanded like he didn't matter over a cliff/bluff/snow drift, TDA armour and all.
The rest was Khorne.

The fluff was that Magnus had made himself invulnerable to anything that the Imperium could throw at them but that doesn't matter because the protagonist that Magnus is facing just happens to wield an axe which isn't Imperium made. The entire situation was set up so that Grimnar would be able to beat Magnus (well at least destroy his wards so that the Imperium army could shoot him).

If this turns out to be a just as planned to destroy the Wolves later I'll be fine with that but if it's just another Chaos came close but the Imperial heros saved the day then I will just be disappointed.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
He's the chapter master that takes no nonsense from the inquisition (you know that group who murders people for speaking out against them) and fights the most powerful beings in the galaxy without working up a sweat (you know, because of his axe of Khorne that of course he's allowed to keep), he rides in to save the day like the swashbuckling Mary Sue he is.

Grimnar murders people he doesn't know because they were drafted into an allied faction he doesn't like, he wants the heads of the heads of the Inquisition, that's fair for the reasons you stated, he'll settle for the massed heads of people who have no choice in their position to stick the middle finger at the guys he can't reach - that's hardly justified, but as another poster said "Everyone needs a hobby"

But... that's just how war works. Like, in general.

In general you don't do it to your allies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

As for Magnus, you either didn't read the fluff or think I didn't.
Grimnar didn't beat Magnus or even truly fight him. He blindsided him, scored one wound - because Khorne decided to screw Tzeench over - then got backhanded like he didn't matter over a cliff/bluff/snow drift, TDA armour and all.
The rest was Khorne.

The fluff was that Magnus had made himself invulnerable to anything that the Imperium could throw at them but that doesn't matter because the protagonist that Magnus is facing just happens to wield an axe which isn't Imperium made. The entire situation was set up so that Grimnar would be able to beat Magnus (well at least destroy his wards so that the Imperium army could shoot him).

If this turns out to be a just as planned to destroy the Wolves later I'll be fine with that but if it's just another Chaos came close but the Imperial heros saved the day then I will just be disappointed.

An axe that he's been swinging since 2nd edition.
I'm not surprised, GW hasn't hired an actual writer in nearly a decade.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
He's the chapter master that takes no nonsense from the inquisition (you know that group who murders people for speaking out against them) and fights the most powerful beings in the galaxy without working up a sweat (you know, because of his axe of Khorne that of course he's allowed to keep), he rides in to save the day like the swashbuckling Mary Sue he is.

Grimnar murders people he doesn't know because they were drafted into an allied faction he doesn't like, he wants the heads of the heads of the Inquisition, that's fair for the reasons you stated, he'll settle for the massed heads of people who have no choice in their position to stick the middle finger at the guys he can't reach - that's hardly justified, but as another poster said "Everyone needs a hobby"

But... that's just how war works. Like, in general.

In general you don't do it to your allies.

Because at that point they stop being your allies. After the fighting stops, you go back to being allies.

Like, you know, countries in real life do.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
He's the chapter master that takes no nonsense from the inquisition (you know that group who murders people for speaking out against them) and fights the most powerful beings in the galaxy without working up a sweat (you know, because of his axe of Khorne that of course he's allowed to keep), he rides in to save the day like the swashbuckling Mary Sue he is.

Grimnar murders people he doesn't know because they were drafted into an allied faction he doesn't like, he wants the heads of the heads of the Inquisition, that's fair for the reasons you stated, he'll settle for the massed heads of people who have no choice in their position to stick the middle finger at the guys he can't reach - that's hardly justified, but as another poster said "Everyone needs a hobby"

But... that's just how war works. Like, in general.

In general you don't do it to your allies.

Because at that point they stop being your allies. After the fighting stops, you go back to being allies.

Like, you know, countries in real life do.

Just like Russia and the rest of the Allies?
Tactically deprived each other throughout WW2 then when the war finished went straight back to being best buddies...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying what Grimnar is doing is unprecedented, I'm pointing out that what he's doing is wrong. Like if the fighting ends both the Wolf Lords and Inquisition should be executed for war crimes wrong.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Just like Russia and the rest of the Allies?
Tactically deprived each other throughout WW2 then when the war finished went straight back to being best buddies...

I was thinking Russia and Germany in WW2, actually.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Just like Russia and the rest of the Allies?
Tactically deprived each other throughout WW2 then when the war finished went straight back to being best buddies...

I was thinking Russia and Germany in WW2, actually.

Now I follow what you're saying, I've been unclear.
What I'm saying is that the Wolves and Inquisition are currently...allies might be the wrong word...under a ceasefire agreement.
Currently the Inquisition look for any legal loophole to send forces against the Wolves and the Wolves respond by blowing the investigation teams out of the sky and executing the survivors.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Just like Russia and the rest of the Allies?
Tactically deprived each other throughout WW2 then when the war finished went straight back to being best buddies...

I was thinking Russia and Germany in WW2, actually.

Now I follow what you're saying, I've been unclear.
What I'm saying is that the Wolves and Inquisition are currently...allies might be the wrong word...under a ceasefire agreement.
Currently the Inquisition look for any legal loophole to send forces against the Wolves and the Wolves respond by blowing the investigation teams out of the sky and executing the survivors.

What I'm saying is that in every war, innocents kill innocents, and innocents die in the crossfire. And occasionally a villain dies too.

And the Space Wolves versus the Inquisition was just a relatively small-scale civil war where most of the Imperium stayed out of it.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Just like Russia and the rest of the Allies?
Tactically deprived each other throughout WW2 then when the war finished went straight back to being best buddies...

I was thinking Russia and Germany in WW2, actually.

Now I follow what you're saying, I've been unclear.
What I'm saying is that the Wolves and Inquisition are currently...allies might be the wrong word...under a ceasefire agreement.
Currently the Inquisition look for any legal loophole to send forces against the Wolves and the Wolves respond by blowing the investigation teams out of the sky and executing the survivors.

What I'm saying is that in every war, innocents kill innocents, and innocents die in the crossfire. And occasionally a villain dies too.

And the Space Wolves versus the Inquisition was just a relatively small-scale civil war where most of the Imperium stayed out of it.

That I get.
But the Wolves and Inquisition aren't currently in a civil war, they've called ceasefire and continually try to get the other to re-instigate it.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
That I get.
But the Wolves and Inquisition aren't currently in a civil war, they've called ceasefire and continually try to get the other to re-instigate it.

So they decided to stop fighting.

Hence innocents die less often, because the war is not happening anymore.

Does this change anything about what I said?

Can't speak much on DnD, but 40k defiantly should remain in shades of grade, with no good or evil. Holy and good are not the same thing, and shouldn't be. Let the Guard send millions to their death, let the Imperium be brutal, and militant, let them be the nessercy empire to hold Mankind together, and let Space Marines and Guardsman (and plastic SoB, please) be the bringers of order in a galaxy of true heresy. Let them do good and bad like all empires. Take the Soviet Union (which the IoM is based off), they let millions die to save their soveity, and brought the end to the Nazis(no Murica didn't stop them, the Soviets did, 27 million dead russians to 420,000 thousand americans. These statics include all deaths related to the war, shuch as being shot or dieng of disease in the terrible conditions), and liberated the Jews from the concentration camps. They also killed millions in Stalin's purges. Or the Roman Empire (which it is also based off) who would conquer all, but would be willing to merge your religions, and give your tribe (planet) its own goverment (temporaly) and bring your people more wealth and trade. Ther should be no good and no evil, we do good and we do bad, it is the truth. Humans aren't perfect, (except the Emperor!Well, not really, but that's heresy) and niether are our empires, let 40k reflect this.

Saying one is good and one is evil is wayyyy to black and white. I think the only way you can say the Imperium is good, is if you prefer that fate over being a pus filled creature of Nurgle (I know I would prefer the latter )