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Recent GW fluff has drawn an explicit, clear, black and white line between good and evil. The Imperium is good and Chaos is evil.

I kinda disagree with GW's simplistic mono-axial approach. In D&D they already had two axes of alignment, Order vs Chaos and Good vs Evil.

What do you guys think? Should be a simple clean line, or should it be more complex?

Well, Chaos is absolutely evil.

The Imperium is too, but at least it won't do horrible, unspeakable things to you. Most of the time, at least.

It's like picking between the forces of literal hell and Nazi Germany/Soviet Russia.

Er, I think its clear that the Imperium is only "good" in the sense of "the ends justify the means", not good in any real moral sense.

Living in the Imperium is described as:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

None of that or any background fluff really supports the Imperium as a force of good or peace. There may be some decent elements of humanity but they are far and in between, with most of the Imperium focused mainly on survival, no matter the cost.

I think you may be confusing the Imperium as the primary protagonist of the setting as being the "good guy" which is not the same thing.

Considering that the Chaos powers are fueled by the emotions, thoughts and feelings of the people of the galaxy (mainly the humans just because they are the most numerous...), the fact that they are so powerful says something about humanity.

The imperium is not good. It's the brutal regime needed to hold the galaxy together. Chaos is not evil. It's the primal expression of the angst of the galaxy.

That is what is so appealing to me in the 40k lore: all is grey, there is no pure light, there is no pure darkness... All is Grimdark (tm) ...

 Grimskul wrote:
Er, I think its clear that the Imperium is only "good" in the sense of "the ends justify the means", not good in any real moral sense.

Living in the Imperium is described as:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

None of that or any background fluff really supports the Imperium as a force of good or peace. There may be some decent elements of humanity but they are far and in between, with most of the Imperium focused mainly on survival, no matter the cost.

I think you may be confusing the Imperium as the primary protagonist of the setting as being the "good guy" which is not the same thing.

Well said!

Should the Imperium be "Good" or you getting executed for heresy?

Everybody please, I need you to answer my question instead of going off topic.

 Grimskul wrote:
I think you may be confusing the Imperium as the primary protagonist of the setting as being the "good guy" which is not the same thing.

Well, recent fluff is making them more and more into the "good guys", which is the crux of my question.

Absolutely not. There are no, and should be no single 'good guys' in 40k. Same with 'bad guys'. It's one of the most appealing factors to the background. All the 'evil' guys aren't really evil, all the 'good' guys are pretty evil too if you look at it. Seems a hell of a lot more realistic that way than a lot of franchises that put a clear demarcation between the two.

40k, for me, is about survival, rather than your standard struggle of good vs evil.

There should not be absolute good and absolute evil in 40k, i fully agree. It makes for one dimensional storytelling and that is simply boring. I really like the storyline of 30k, where the things that draw each legion to Horus's side are not simply in the "do you want to be bad?" category.

 ChaosDad wrote:
There should not be absolute good and absolute evil in 40k, i fully agree. It makes for one dimensional storytelling and that is simply boring. I really like the storyline of 30k, where the things that draw each legion to Horus's side are not simply in the "do you want to be bad?" category.

Absolutely

Yeah I love the treatment the HH novels has given to the traitor primarchs. Especially that the reasons for most of them turning are pretty much the Emperor's fault. Certainly Angron, and he was pretty crappy to Mortarion (although from what I understand he was loyal until he got trapped in the warp).

I'd say GW treats the Imperium as the heroes, because SM make the most money. However being the hero and being good are two very different things. The hero is the main faction (because SMs, are the most popular, but IG are still better), but lets look at their track record:
1. They are willing to lose about 1,000,000 guardsman a day
2. They believe Exterminatus is fine
3. They burn people for hereesy
4. They excute anyone who retreats (because commissars are bloody awesome)
5. They don't believe in human rights, equal rights, or really any rights, however is on top gets supreme control, (except the high lords of Terra really just decided to let Segmentum Command take over)
and so on and so forth

As for Chaos,
yes their evil, because they are unholy filthy disquisting heretical vermin that must be cleansed! (I'm a Guard player)

The way I see Chaos is that they're basically an anarchic-meritocracic alternative human civilisation.

At war with the Imperium, but neither is the 'right' way human civilisation should be constructed.

SO this is kinda the beauty of 40k, everyone is the bad guy, and everyone is the good guy, just depends how you look at.

the Imperium is not good it is an oppressive cruel Dictatorship with Slavery, false Idol worshiping and what have you how any one thinks they are good is beyond me, the whole Imperium and Chaos thing reminds me of the Catholic Church and the Pagans and even the Protestants.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Well, Chaos is absolutely evil.

The Imperium is too, but at least it won't do horrible, unspeakable things to you. Most of the time, at least.

It's like picking between the forces of literal hell and Nazi Germany/Soviet Russia.

This.

I think the closest you will get to a 'good' army, is the Space Marines. Though they are part of an absolutely brutal and bloody regime, most of the chapters seem to care about the overall good of those under their protection. There's a lot of fluff showing the care and concern the Marines have for the average Imperial citizen. For the most part, they don't fight for love, or money, or land, they fight to protect the citizens of the Empire, knowing full well, that they will die in battle. However there are other chapters that couldn't care less about the citizens of the Empire.

As for absolute Evil, Evil is in the heart, so it's not so much a matter of what you do, but why it's being done. Dark Eldar are certainly evil, they thrive of pain, torture, and the suffering of others. Most of the followers of Chaos are absolutely evil as well, however I'm not fully convienced the gods of Chaos are. I see them more as forces of nature or aspects of life. Nurgle is disease and decay, he's like the anti Mother Nature, but it simply is what he is, same with Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh, they are simply aspects of life, like it or not.

As for most other armies, they fall into a more of a Grey area: Eldar are fighting for their very existence, this lead to desperation, and as such they must do what is necessary to survive. Is that Evil? I would say no, because it's not like they are trying to spread death and destruction, they are only acting in a way that will best reserve their lives. Orks and Tyranids are simply forces of nature, much like the gods of Chaos, they are no more evil than a swarm of locusts moving from crop field to crop field. Tau: Well that's a matter of opinion, some people like the idea of living for the greater good, and others do not. Tau see the species as a single entity and the individual is irrelivant, so ideas like freedom and liberty are irrelevant. I would define that as evil, but not absolute. The Necrons make me think of a race of grumpy old men, who woke up one day to find out theie SS checks had all been stolen, some unruley kids have trampled all over their lawn, and all their friends are dead and replaced with really bad robots pretending to be them. They got a raw deal and are really grumpy about it. They was their lawn back, the gnomes repaired, and their Social Security checks in the mail

The Imperium of Man and various other races are average. However, their wickedness and greed fuel Chaos...so it's a bit like karma.

Even though they do unspeakable things, I don't see the Dark Eldar as truly evil either.

The Dark Eldar are in exactly the same boat as the Eldar. Their empire shattered, their souls inexorably drained away by an enemy they cannot hope to defeat. Their atrocities are driven by the self-same fear that drives the Craftworld Eldar to their Paths. It's another desperate coping mechanism, thinly thinly veiled by a 'we do it because we like it, not because we have to' attitude.

Their behaviours are just as much driven by survival as the Craftworlders. As far as our morality goes, they're evil. But in the context of the moral grey area that is 40k, they're not really any worse than the Imperium.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the Craftworld Eldar are any less evil than their dark kin they've been tricked by the manipulations of that fickle race They're the people who threw the whole world of Armageddon (and all of the people who flocked to its defence) under the bus, just to save a paltry few of their own race.

They're cared solely with their own survival, and will sacrifice billions of innocent humans (or any other race) just to ensure they live to see the next day. The only reason they ally with the Imperium is because they often share the same enemies, and the fumbling Mon-Keigh are easily manipulated.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my meatshield.

Ravingbantha wrote:
I think the closest you will get to a 'good' army, is the Space Marines. Though they are part of an absolutely brutal and bloody regime, most of the chapters seem to care about the overall good of those under their protection. There's a lot of fluff showing the care and concern the Marines have for the average Imperial citizen. For the most part, they don't fight for love, or money, or land, they fight to protect the citizens of the Empire, knowing full well, that they will die in battle. However there are other chapters that couldn't care less about the citizens of the Empire.

they fight for the citizens? even though they have wiped out entire planets of citizens because they knew about Chaos?, they also fought over land, but in their terms planets but still territory, the Astartes are the worse of the lot, they are unmoving and without mercy, if a planet is tainted they will wipe out the innocent along with the guilty.

To me, the closest thing to "good" in the galaxy is the Tau, they tend to treat their conquered planets with some sense of decency, to form alliances and favour diplomacy over exterminatus...

On the other hand, there is something seriously fishy (horrible pun intended) about the whole etheral thing...

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Well, recent fluff is making them more and more into the "good guys", which is the crux of my question.

I think you might need to provide just one or two citations here.

That aside, the most succinct summation I can recall of the Imperium was Ian Watson's: 'A desperately flawed society which must nonetheless be defended at all costs against the fear of something worse.'.

 ChaosDad wrote:
To me, the closest thing to "good" in the galaxy is the Tau, they tend to treat their conquered planets with some sense of decency, to form alliances and favour diplomacy over exterminatus...

On the other hand, there is something seriously fishy (horrible pun intended) about the whole etheral thing...

the term Greater Good should be your first clue.

The way I see it the Imperium is Lawful Neutral and Chaos is (appropriately) Chaotic Evil. The Imperium isn't "good" by any stretch of the imagination but Chaos is most certainly evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Even though they do unspeakable things, I don't see the Dark Eldar as truly evil either.

The Dark Eldar are in exactly the same boat as the Eldar. Their empire shattered, their souls inexorably drained away by an enemy they cannot hope to defeat. Their atrocities are driven by the self-same fear that drives the Craftworld Eldar to their Paths. It's another desperate coping mechanism, thinly thinly veiled by a 'we do it because we like it, not because we have to' attitude.

Their behaviours are just as much driven by survival as the Craftworlders. As far as our morality goes, they're evil. But in the context of the moral grey area that is 40k, they're not really any worse than the Imperium.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the Craftworld Eldar are any less evil than their dark kin they've been tricked by the manipulations of that fickle race They're the people who threw the whole world of Armageddon (and all of the people who flocked to its defence) under the bus, just to save a paltry few of their own race.

They're cared solely with their own survival, and will sacrifice billions of innocent humans (or any other race) just to ensure they live to see the next day. The only reason they ally with the Imperium is because they often share the same enemies, and the fumbling Mon-Keigh are easily manipulated.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my meatshield.

Yeah. The Eldar are collectively a bunch of idiots who brought down their own doom. And now they are too dumb to put aside their prejudices to ally with the biggest formal government in the galaxy just because they are "foolish mon'keigh",

as it goes for the Tau nothing good ever came out of the term "Greater Good"




or more to the point:

Ravingbantha wrote:
I think the closest you will get to a 'good' army, is the Space Marines. Though they are part of an absolutely brutal and bloody regime, most of the chapters seem to care about the overall good of those under their protection. There's a lot of fluff showing the care and concern the Marines have for the average Imperial citizen. For the most part, they don't fight for love, or money, or land, they fight to protect the citizens of the Empire, knowing full well, that they will die in battle. However there are other chapters that couldn't care less about the citizens of the Empire.

As for absolute Evil, Evil is in the heart, so it's not so much a matter of what you do, but why it's being done. Dark Eldar are certainly evil, they thrive of pain, torture, and the suffering of others. Most of the followers of Chaos are absolutely evil as well, however I'm not fully convienced the gods of Chaos are. I see them more as forces of nature or aspects of life. Nurgle is disease and decay, he's like the anti Mother Nature, but it simply is what he is, same with Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh, they are simply aspects of life, like it or not.

As for most other armies, they fall into a more of a Grey area: Eldar are fighting for their very existence, this lead to desperation, and as such they must do what is necessary to survive. Is that Evil? I would say no, because it's not like they are trying to spread death and destruction, they are only acting in a way that will best reserve their lives. Orks and Tyranids are simply forces of nature, much like the gods of Chaos, they are no more evil than a swarm of locusts moving from crop field to crop field. Tau: Well that's a matter of opinion, some people like the idea of living for the greater good, and others do not. Tau see the species as a single entity and the individual is irrelivant, so ideas like freedom and liberty are irrelevant. I would define that as evil, but not absolute. The Necrons make me think of a race of grumpy old men, who woke up one day to find out theie SS checks had all been stolen, some unruley kids have trampled all over their lawn, and all their friends are dead and replaced with really bad robots pretending to be them. They got a raw deal and are really grumpy about it. They was their lawn back, the gnomes repaired, and their Social Security checks in the mail

Exalted good sir! Love the description of the Necrons lol

The imperium is a dictatorship, a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes...
Meanwhile, chaos is an anarcho-syndicalist commune, where they take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more...

Asterios wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:
I think the closest you will get to a 'good' army, is the Space Marines. Though they are part of an absolutely brutal and bloody regime, most of the chapters seem to care about the overall good of those under their protection. There's a lot of fluff showing the care and concern the Marines have for the average Imperial citizen. For the most part, they don't fight for love, or money, or land, they fight to protect the citizens of the Empire, knowing full well, that they will die in battle. However there are other chapters that couldn't care less about the citizens of the Empire.

they fight for the citizens? even though they have wiped out entire planets of citizens because they knew about Chaos?, they also fought over land, but in their terms planets but still territory, the Astartes are the worse of the lot, they are unmoving and without mercy, if a planet is tainted they will wipe out the innocent along with the guilty.

Some chapter do act this way, but not all, which is what I said. There are several stories about Space Marines regretting having to make decisions like this. Th the Wrath of Magnus book, Logan Grimmnar was furious at his citizens being slaughtered, it also spoke to the sadness he felt at loosing so many people who entrusted their safety to them. He wasn't mad that he was loosing resources, or land, he was mad that he was loosing people. Not just marines, but regular citizens. And even when he had to make the call to destroy a planet, it upset him greatly. That is not evil.

Asterios wrote:

 ChaosDad wrote:
To me, the closest thing to "good" in the galaxy is the Tau, they tend to treat their conquered planets with some sense of decency, to form alliances and favour diplomacy over exterminatus...

On the other hand, there is something seriously fishy (horrible pun intended) about the whole etheral thing...

the term Greater Good should be your first clue.

The line of 'the greater good' has been used by tyrants and dictators all through history. Trampling on the rights on an individual, because it fits your desired goal for the collective is not even close to 'good'

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The way I see it the Imperium is Lawful Neutral and Chaos is (appropriately) Chaotic Evil. The Imperium isn't "good" by any stretch of the imagination but Chaos is most certainly evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Even though they do unspeakable things, I don't see the Dark Eldar as truly evil either.

The Dark Eldar are in exactly the same boat as the Eldar. Their empire shattered, their souls inexorably drained away by an enemy they cannot hope to defeat. Their atrocities are driven by the self-same fear that drives the Craftworld Eldar to their Paths. It's another desperate coping mechanism, thinly thinly veiled by a 'we do it because we like it, not because we have to' attitude.

Their behaviours are just as much driven by survival as the Craftworlders. As far as our morality goes, they're evil. But in the context of the moral grey area that is 40k, they're not really any worse than the Imperium.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the Craftworld Eldar are any less evil than their dark kin they've been tricked by the manipulations of that fickle race They're the people who threw the whole world of Armageddon (and all of the people who flocked to its defence) under the bus, just to save a paltry few of their own race.

They're cared solely with their own survival, and will sacrifice billions of innocent humans (or any other race) just to ensure they live to see the next day. The only reason they ally with the Imperium is because they often share the same enemies, and the fumbling Mon-Keigh are easily manipulated.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my meatshield.

Yeah. The Eldar are collectively a bunch of idiots who brought down their own doom. And now they are too dumb to put aside their prejudices to ally with the biggest formal government in the galaxy just because they are "foolish mon'keigh",

They may be in the same boat, but they are not the same. The Dark Eldar are a dying race, but they choose to make others suffer for their amusement. That's a huge difference between the two.

Personally, me inner CSM believes you can't call chaos' followers evil. The gods sure, but not the followers. This is mainly because 90% of the CSM and heretics serving chaos were basically born in hell and neverhad any choice about following anyone else. Lets be honest, most CSM mooks are probably insane children who have had to kill people since they day they were born, and whenever they leave the eye the humans who didn't grow up in hell call them heretics for something their overlords did years ago. I can see how that would make someone bitter.

Summary: to me the CSM who aren't original members of the legions or recent renegades are as evil as any hyper-propagandised faction in the Imperium (which is to say, all of them). I'll not hesitate before calling out the chaos gods and recent renegades who know what chaos is but turned anyway.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The way I see it the Imperium is Lawful Neutral and Chaos is (appropriately) Chaotic Evil. The Imperium isn't "good" by any stretch of the imagination but Chaos is most certainly evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Even though they do unspeakable things, I don't see the Dark Eldar as truly evil either.

The Dark Eldar are in exactly the same boat as the Eldar. Their empire shattered, their souls inexorably drained away by an enemy they cannot hope to defeat. Their atrocities are driven by the self-same fear that drives the Craftworld Eldar to their Paths. It's another desperate coping mechanism, thinly thinly veiled by a 'we do it because we like it, not because we have to' attitude.

Their behaviours are just as much driven by survival as the Craftworlders. As far as our morality goes, they're evil. But in the context of the moral grey area that is 40k, they're not really any worse than the Imperium.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the Craftworld Eldar are any less evil than their dark kin they've been tricked by the manipulations of that fickle race They're the people who threw the whole world of Armageddon (and all of the people who flocked to its defence) under the bus, just to save a paltry few of their own race.

They're cared solely with their own survival, and will sacrifice billions of innocent humans (or any other race) just to ensure they live to see the next day. The only reason they ally with the Imperium is because they often share the same enemies, and the fumbling Mon-Keigh are easily manipulated.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my meatshield.

Yeah. The Eldar are collectively a bunch of idiots who brought down their own doom. And now they are too dumb to put aside their prejudices to ally with the biggest formal government in the galaxy just because they are "foolish mon'keigh",

Allying with the biggest formal government in the galaxy...who has an official policy of exterminating any xeno civilisation they come across that has a chance of competing with them.

Yeah. The Eldar know much better than to ally with the nutty murderous zealots next door foolishness in the 40k universe gets you killed.

[Edit I completely misunderstood your post], so I rewrote it all]

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Recent GW fluff has drawn an explicit, clear, black and white line between good and evil. The Imperium is good and Chaos is evil.

This simply isn't true at all.

The IoM is bad really bad It is the festering remains of an empire ruled by an evil scientist who has succeeded in his world domination plan with his army of super humans and he is now revered as a god and his creations as saints .
The conflict between CSM and SM is a nasty civil war between the monsters created by the emperror with no heed at all for collateral damage resulting in a never ending war and unending human suffering. Chaos is just a reflection of emotions and the less desirable parts of it are having a feast of this ever lasting Faustian nightmare .
There is a thick propaganda layer labeling the IoM as the best thing there ever was since the dawn of men.

This is the core of the 40k setting for years now. GW hasn't changed this to clear cut good and evil at all. They just have crancked up the propaganda to hilarious proportions* and it seems that they have convinced you ; ).
* Here is a good example https://regimental-standard.com/2016/12/28/join-the-righteous/?utm_source=Warhammer%20Community&utm_medium=Post&utm_content=RegStandDec28

However they also give the narrative of the other side, with the whole burning of prospero and horus herecy story line. This is cool and a new approach. So no they are not rewriting it all to a Good vs Evil fairy tale and neither should the setting be this simple.

Also note that DnD is only clear cut good vs evil, law vs chaos if you want it to be, and even the best DnD settings have much more to offer in this aspect.