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Of course it matters. Whilst it may not play a part in a direct slugfest between them if it's not ultramarines or some of the others, it's part of a SMs points cost and helps them be more versitile for other situations. It would be like comparing Ruburics to Orks and completely ignoring the sorcs powers who is part of the points cost. To compare two units you can't just do a straight slugfest, you have to take them out of the vacuume.
I would take my 70pt rapier battery (which is very undercosted) over ork boys any day of the week, but in a straight fight, im pretty sure 12 orks would win.

Orks with cover are still more efficient vs scatterlasers than marines. Not guardmen efficient, but still.

Martel732 wrote:
Orks with cover are still more efficient vs scatterlasers than marines. Not guardmen efficient, but still.

Did you include ld7, mob rule and deaths from the front in your calculations of being effective? And the fact that scatterlasers tend to be on mobile platforms that can roll around cover and that if you try to stick to it, you get your movement randomly reduced.

Do marines not die from the front?

I think he means that the shooting as the Orks cross the table will reduce the number arriving in combat.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I'd rather the Boyz became stronger offensively (since that would mean you would need less to survive while still being effective) than either a better save or FNP and make 'Eavy Armour cost less so that those who do want tougher boyz can do so without shooting the cost of the unit into the atmosphere

I've always thought this too. 5+ armour save would not be my choice. I'm happy with my boyz dying.. in droves... that's what they are there for. However, should my boyz get to you, I don't want them to hit like a wet fish.

If we get a point drop then I just need to buy/assemble/paint/base more boyz ... I'd rather not to be honest (I already field 90 footsloggers in most games). If we get given higher stats some people will feel boyz are getting too much for their points and perhaps they are right. So perhaps we can re-arrange what we already have... Why not just swap our STR and WS scores. If that feels too strong you can always swap Furious charge for an different rule that gives + 1 WS on the charge rather than +1 Str, but I'd be very happy with STR 5 attacks on the charge.

Also give me more weapon options for the nob, the old tankbusta bombs back, cost nobs appropriately, get rid of 'cowardly grots', cost the 'orkanauts appropriately, do something with flashgitz and give us the ability to take painboyz more easily. Infact just rewrite the bloody codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Do marines not die from the front?

Dying from the front matters more to horde armies that rely on getting close either because of short ranged guns or being melee focused.

It matters a lot to BA. Trust me.

Martel732 wrote:
It matters a lot to BA. Trust me.

The difference is there's up to 3 times less distance lost with marines compared to orks.

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It matters a lot to BA. Trust me.

The difference is there's up to 3 times less distance lost with marines compared to orks.

On the other hand, you have a squad left after the ion accelerator hits. Orks are just the mirror opposite of marines. They are both inferior to firewarriors, necron warriors and scatbikes atm.

+1 Strength instead of toughness and reduce cost of eavy armour to 3 per add heavy option to all ork types (not gretchin)
and remove painboy from hq add pain boss..have pain boy be one ofthe odd boy options like mekboy to be used anywhere..

At least just make them s4 across the board, even if it means giving up fc. If anything, orks should get stronger as the fight goes on. Instead they wilt after the charge and run. Too much like grots. Too weedy this edition.

Martel732 wrote:
It matters a lot to BA. Trust me.

You can hear my Tyranid horde playing the world's smallest violin for your poor BA having to be removed from the front.

I never said being removed from the front doesn't matter to anyone but horde armies, I said it matters *more* because they lose more models and get reduced to a crawling pace or can't bring their short ranged guns to bear.

It depends on what you are getting hit with.

On the other hand, we could just increase strength to 4, and change WS to actually matter.

WS4+ is almost irrelevant. Ohh no my (Insert unit) has WS2, I guess i'll still hit those WS4 Orks half the time. and then theres "Ohh yeah! My Ork unit has WS4, i'll be hitting everything with lesser WS on 3s".

The fact that WS doesn't matter for most people is ridiculous. The only WS that really matters for people is 7+ and 9+, why? Because most WS's are 3 or 4. So when you double +1 your opponent is hitting on 5s instead of 4s.

Ballistic skill on the other hand is great until you hit BS6 and then it drops off in value pretty heavily until 8 or so.

The WS chart is absolute trash, I agree.

Replace Furious Charge with +1 Strength.
Give Hammer of Wrath to all models with Ere We Go by default. Models that have Hammer of Wrath from another source (a Bike, etc) inflict two Hammer of Wrath hits instead.

Yeah, it's good but not really helping the footslogging issue. Still not enough to matter vs strong and fast mellee and in no way helps us mitigate senemy shooting.