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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 19:58:44
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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This is meant as a sort of counterpoint to the "Our weapons are useless" rule, which allows models to run away from combat if they can't hurt the enemy they're locked with. I'm mostly writing this because it's incredibly annoying to have your tanky models (Dreadnoughts, Knights, super-high T monstrous creatures, etc,) locked into combat against enemies who literally cannot hurt them, but you're not permitted to leave despite the fact that there wouldn't be any reason why you couldn't. (You're not normally allowed to leave combat because you would be overwhelmed immediately in melee attacks, like when you break and then get overrun, but that obviously can't happen in certain situations.) With all that said...
"Their Weapons are Useless"
When locked in combat, if your opponenents models are completely incapable of damaging any unit you have locked in the same combat, (Because their Strength is too low to harm you and they lack any special rule which would allow them to, their WS has been reduced to 0, or any other reason,) then you may disengage those units from combat with no penalties at the end of the assault phase. (Note that if a model would normally be vulnerable, but has had its durability increased by a Psychic Power or any other means, then it may still disengage from combat.)
My one concern is that this could be exploited to charge into combat, get locked until the enemy's assault phase, then leave so that you can shoot again, but if I only allow the player to disengage on their turn, then we get the opposite problem: The opponent can charge, be locked for the player's entire turn, and then immediately charge on their turn again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 20:28:46
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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You want to remove tarpitting as a valuable strategy. Got it
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 20:49:31
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Not all tarpitting, but I don't want it to be possible to tarpit a unit unless you can at least hurt it. There's no reason why a Stompa or a Khorne Lord of Skulls should have to sit around, swinging at their toes when twenty plague zombies are standing around them, breaking sticks on their armor. I imagine it goes something like this:
"We need you to fire on those tanks!"
"No-can-do, sir, there's some grots getting themselves stuck in my toes."
All it takes is one attack that could potentially damage the target - One Meltabomb will work against anyone, a Krak Grenade will do the trick, one Rending attack, just something that makes it possible for the unit to potentially cause damage that would distract the thing they're tarpitting. Otherwise, it makes zero sense, and it isn't really a fun thing to play with or against.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 20:59:28
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Why not simply allow Walkers and Monstrous Creature to Tank shock, and update the rules for ramming MC accordingly? Add a clause that you can't charge and tank shock in the same turn or so.
Use your bulk to shove units around.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 21:06:18
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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MagicJuggler wrote:Why not simply allow Walkers and Monstrous Creature to Tank shock, and update the rules for ramming MC accordingly? Add a clause that you can't charge and tank shock in the same turn or so.
Use your bulk to shove units around.
I'm... Not sure how this would help? The problem is that weak but numerous units can lock durable shooty units in Close Combat, tying them down for the entire game. (120pts of Plague Zombies will tarpit most super-heavy walkers, no problem.) Being able to tank shock doesn't help there, because they'd already be locked in combat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 21:28:08
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sorry, on a phone. But the idea is to use tankshock as a Hit&Run variant, and allow disengagement via Tank Shock (so the Lord of Skulls isn't so hilariously easy to bog down too)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 21:51:26
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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MagicJuggler wrote:Sorry, on a phone. But the idea is to use tankshock as a Hit&Run variant, and allow disengagement via Tank Shock (so the Lord of Skulls isn't so hilariously easy to bog down too)
Oh. I think that might almost be *too* powerful, since you could use it on otherwise intimidating enemies to disengage from a poor matchup combat. (For example, a bunch of Terminators with Chainfists. They might get to take their Glory or Death attack, but it's still a huge edge for the player with the titan in that case.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 21:58:31
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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IIRC, you can't engage Titans with anything that's not a superheavy anyway right?
I'd imagine it'd be more for stuff like "Dakkafex/carnifex can plow through some conscripts, to get into a better position to shoot the dudes behind them" or something more low-level like that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/02 23:17:51
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote:
Not all tarpitting, but I don't want it to be possible to tarpit a unit unless you can at least hurt it. There's no reason why a Stompa or a Khorne Lord of Skulls should have to sit around, swinging at their toes when twenty plague zombies are standing around them, breaking sticks on their armor. I imagine it goes something like this:
"We need you to fire on those tanks!"
"No-can-do, sir, there's some grots getting themselves stuck in my toes."
All it takes is one attack that could potentially damage the target - One Meltabomb will work against anyone, a Krak Grenade will do the trick, one Rending attack, just something that makes it possible for the unit to potentially cause damage that would distract the thing they're tarpitting. Otherwise, it makes zero sense, and it isn't really a fun thing to play with or against.
That's because 20 plague zombies have no concept of self preservation and will climb at the vehicle trying to get the goodies inside.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/03 00:12:28
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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MagicJuggler wrote:IIRC, you can't engage Titans with anything that's not a superheavy anyway right?
I'd imagine it'd be more for stuff like "Dakkafex/carnifex can plow through some conscripts, to get into a better position to shoot the dudes behind them" or something more low-level like that.
Nope. They dropped that rule when the 6th edition Apocalypse came out, and it stayed dropped when they updated things in Escalation, and eventually made the rules perma-official in 7th edition. Now, 30k Warhounds, Reavers, and Warlords have a specific note that says that they can't normally be locked in combat, but they're the exception, not the rule.
@Slayer-Fan123, that makes no sense. Zombies aren't capable of harming titans. They are S3. They cannot hurt vehicles! It doesn't matter if they're trying to "Get at the goodies inside". If they were capable of hurting tanks, then they would be hurting tanks whether or not that tank was trying to stop them - After all, immobilized vehicles have no method of trying to stop Plague Zombies from "Climbing at the vehicle, trying to get the goodies inside", but that doesn't mean that the Zombies are suddenly stronger or better at fighting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/03 02:36:18
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote: MagicJuggler wrote:IIRC, you can't engage Titans with anything that's not a superheavy anyway right?
I'd imagine it'd be more for stuff like "Dakkafex/carnifex can plow through some conscripts, to get into a better position to shoot the dudes behind them" or something more low-level like that.
Nope. They dropped that rule when the 6th edition Apocalypse came out, and it stayed dropped when they updated things in Escalation, and eventually made the rules perma-official in 7th edition. Now, 30k Warhounds, Reavers, and Warlords have a specific note that says that they can't normally be locked in combat, but they're the exception, not the rule.
@Slayer-Fan123, that makes no sense. Zombies aren't capable of harming titans. They are S3. They cannot hurt vehicles! It doesn't matter if they're trying to "Get at the goodies inside". If they were capable of hurting tanks, then they would be hurting tanks whether or not that tank was trying to stop them - After all, immobilized vehicles have no method of trying to stop Plague Zombies from "Climbing at the vehicle, trying to get the goodies inside", but that doesn't mean that the Zombies are suddenly stronger or better at fighting.
No, it just means the Walker needs to take care of them before they climb inside.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/03 02:52:03
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Waaaghpower wrote: MagicJuggler wrote:IIRC, you can't engage Titans with anything that's not a superheavy anyway right?
I'd imagine it'd be more for stuff like "Dakkafex/carnifex can plow through some conscripts, to get into a better position to shoot the dudes behind them" or something more low-level like that.
Nope. They dropped that rule when the 6th edition Apocalypse came out, and it stayed dropped when they updated things in Escalation, and eventually made the rules perma-official in 7th edition. Now, 30k Warhounds, Reavers, and Warlords have a specific note that says that they can't normally be locked in combat, but they're the exception, not the rule.
@Slayer-Fan123, that makes no sense. Zombies aren't capable of harming titans. They are S3. They cannot hurt vehicles! It doesn't matter if they're trying to "Get at the goodies inside". If they were capable of hurting tanks, then they would be hurting tanks whether or not that tank was trying to stop them - After all, immobilized vehicles have no method of trying to stop Plague Zombies from "Climbing at the vehicle, trying to get the goodies inside", but that doesn't mean that the Zombies are suddenly stronger or better at fighting.
No, it just means the Walker needs to take care of them before they climb inside.
Again, though, that makes no sense. How is a zombie going to climb inside of a Dreadnought? Or an Imperial Knight? For that matter, by your logic, then zombies should cause problems for most open-topped vehicles like Trukks and those Dark Eldar transports, and yet - Wouldn't you know it - Zombies don't cause any trouble to them, despite the fact that they should be far more vulnerable. Logically speaking there is zero reason why someone piloting a huge warmachine should care at all that there are zombies getting clogged in his toes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/03 03:39:38
Subject: Re:"Their Weapons are Useless"
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Australia
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Not to go too far off subject but I have a SOB squad which couldn't hit the eternity gate if they were standing two feet away from it. Either the rifling in their bolters is gone or the emperor is punishing them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/03 10:32:25
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Waaaghpower wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Waaaghpower wrote: MagicJuggler wrote:IIRC, you can't engage Titans with anything that's not a superheavy anyway right? I'd imagine it'd be more for stuff like "Dakkafex/carnifex can plow through some conscripts, to get into a better position to shoot the dudes behind them" or something more low-level like that.
Nope. They dropped that rule when the 6th edition Apocalypse came out, and it stayed dropped when they updated things in Escalation, and eventually made the rules perma-official in 7th edition. Now, 30k Warhounds, Reavers, and Warlords have a specific note that says that they can't normally be locked in combat, but they're the exception, not the rule. @Slayer-Fan123, that makes no sense. Zombies aren't capable of harming titans. They are S3. They cannot hurt vehicles! It doesn't matter if they're trying to "Get at the goodies inside". If they were capable of hurting tanks, then they would be hurting tanks whether or not that tank was trying to stop them - After all, immobilized vehicles have no method of trying to stop Plague Zombies from "Climbing at the vehicle, trying to get the goodies inside", but that doesn't mean that the Zombies are suddenly stronger or better at fighting.
No, it just means the Walker needs to take care of them before they climb inside.
Again, though, that makes no sense. How is a zombie going to climb inside of a Dreadnought? Or an Imperial Knight? For that matter, by your logic, then zombies should cause problems for most open-topped vehicles like Trukks and those Dark Eldar transports, and yet - Wouldn't you know it - Zombies don't cause any trouble to them, despite the fact that they should be far more vulnerable. Logically speaking there is zero reason why someone piloting a huge warmachine should care at all that there are zombies getting clogged in his toes. Yeah, wouldn't the walker just, like, walk through them? I mean, it has big stompy legs. Infantry are squishy. The walker should just keep going, stepping on and smacking away any infantry that gets in their way. Really, a walker should only be locked in combat with other walkers and monstrous creatures. Speaking of gettings locked in combat, bikes shouldn't be locked in combat either. Because they are bikes; they have to keep moving. Can you imagine a biker riding towards a melee, only to come to a complete stop and start ineffectually waving his stick around? I can, and its stupid. Bikes should have an obligate form of the hit and run rule, where they must disengage from combat after all attacks from both sides have been resolved. Failure to do so will result in the bikes receiving more damage, as they are surrounded and pulled off their vehicles by their opponents.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 10:35:41
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/03 13:36:44
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't the walker just, like, walk through them? I mean, it has big stompy legs. Infantry are squishy. The walker should just keep going, stepping on and smacking away any infantry that gets in their way.
Really, a walker should only be locked in combat with other walkers and monstrous creatures.
Speaking of gettings locked in combat, bikes shouldn't be locked in combat either. Because they are bikes; they have to keep moving. Can you imagine a biker riding towards a melee, only to come to a complete stop and start ineffectually waving his stick around? I can, and its stupid. Bikes should have an obligate form of the hit and run rule, where they must disengage from combat after all attacks from both sides have been resolved. Failure to do so will result in the bikes receiving more damage, as they are surrounded and pulled off their vehicles by their opponents.
Really, if anything, bikes just shouldn't get their Toughness bonus in close combat if we want the game to function realistically. That's a concession I don't mind for game balance, though.
And yeah, "A walker should only be locked in combat with other walkers and monstrous creatures" is kind of what I was going for. I didn't specify 'Walkers and monstrous creatures', because there are many 'Infantry' level threats that are still capable of harming or even curbstomping many walkers, (Space Marine Chapter Masters and Ork Warbosses come to mind, among others,) and since the inverted version of this rule already exists (If you can't hurt a target, you're allowed to run away,) I figured the rule wasn't too much of a stretch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/05 20:19:48
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Dakka Veteran
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We have a rule we call "Move the Pile" where a monstrous creature or walker can move as if in difficult terrain regardless of being engaged with other units (unless they are also an MC or walker). The units engaged may opt to consolidate away or if they would have enough movement, re-engage the MC after it finishes its move.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/06 23:48:04
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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I thought fearless prevented you from using our weapons are useless or was that 6th edition ? Because if it does Plague zombies can't abuse it to escape combat (though why would you leave combat anyway if you are tar pitting)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/06 23:50:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/07 01:32:58
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Rydria wrote:I thought fearless prevented you from using our weapons are useless or was that 6th edition ? Because if it does Plague zombies can't abuse it to escape combat (though why would you leave combat anyway if you are tar pitting)
You're missing the point. This rule would prevent tarpits from bogging down enemies who are invulnerable to them. The zombies wouldn't be the ones leaving combat, the thing they're tarpitting would be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/07 03:30:45
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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From a gameplay perspective, do tarpitty horde units really need the nerf?
It's bad game design when units have no meaningful way of interacting with each other.
Gaunt/zombie/cultist hordes already have no way of attacking most of the big stuff. But they can at least tie them up for a while.
This proposal means they lose the ability to even hinder them slightly.
Sometimes realism has to take a backseat to gameplay, and I think this is one of those cases.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/07 08:07:54
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Arson Fire wrote:From a gameplay perspective, do tarpitty horde units really need the nerf?
It's bad game design when units have no meaningful way of interacting with each other.
Gaunt/zombie/cultist hordes already have no way of attacking most of the big stuff. But they can at least tie them up for a while.
This proposal means they lose the ability to even hinder them slightly.
Sometimes realism has to take a backseat to gameplay, and I think this is one of those cases.
The problem is that it's still crappy game design, just the other way around. If I want to bring a big, shooty something, I also have to buy useless ablative wounds to sit in a circle singing kum-bay-ah so that the thing I actually want to use isn't rendered useless on turn 1. I'm not against some level of tarpitting, but big zombie units only cost 120 points and can tie down units that are vastly more expensive with impunity. Especially with the easy access to first-turn charges or deep strike assaults that several armies have, it makes it very plausible that big, tanky models that have no business being tarpitted can be rendered entirely useless by models with a fraction of their cost.
I personally have a much larger problem with 500+ point models being effectively destroyed without having any way to stop it than I do with plague zombies having one thing they can't bog down for the whole game. Tarpit units don't struggle because big units are gunning them down, they struggle because certain armies have ways of easily removing them from the board - I'm trying to make certain bad units (Stompas, Warhounds, GUOs,) more usable here.
Tarpits would still be useful, too. Just because you can't keep a warhound from shooting by getting jammed in its toes doesn't mean your units are suddenly worthless.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/07 10:22:05
Subject: Re:"Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So your problem is that the big stompy robot has to have other units supporting it to be played effectively?
I don't really know what to say to that.
You don't use an aircraft carrier without its escort fleet. The carrier is the center of the fleet, and a powerful force projector, but by itself it's a vulnerable target.
That's how I see lords of war. They need screening units to keep them safe, and this is how things should be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/07 17:47:03
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote:Arson Fire wrote:From a gameplay perspective, do tarpitty horde units really need the nerf?
It's bad game design when units have no meaningful way of interacting with each other.
Gaunt/zombie/cultist hordes already have no way of attacking most of the big stuff. But they can at least tie them up for a while.
This proposal means they lose the ability to even hinder them slightly.
Sometimes realism has to take a backseat to gameplay, and I think this is one of those cases.
The problem is that it's still crappy game design, just the other way around. If I want to bring a big, shooty something, I also have to buy useless ablative wounds to sit in a circle singing kum-bay-ah so that the thing I actually want to use isn't rendered useless on turn 1. I'm not against some level of tarpitting, but big zombie units only cost 120 points and can tie down units that are vastly more expensive with impunity. Especially with the easy access to first-turn charges or deep strike assaults that several armies have, it makes it very plausible that big, tanky models that have no business being tarpitted can be rendered entirely useless by models with a fraction of their cost.
I personally have a much larger problem with 500+ point models being effectively destroyed without having any way to stop it than I do with plague zombies having one thing they can't bog down for the whole game. Tarpit units don't struggle because big units are gunning them down, they struggle because certain armies have ways of easily removing them from the board - I'm trying to make certain bad units (Stompas, Warhounds, GUOs,) more usable here.
Tarpits would still be useful, too. Just because you can't keep a warhound from shooting by getting jammed in its toes doesn't mean your units are suddenly worthless.
IOW: You admitted that my first post in the thread was correct. Automatically Appended Next Post:
There it is! You don't care about game design. You're butthurt.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/07 17:47:54
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 00:59:27
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
IOW: You admitted that my first post in the thread was correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
There it is! You don't care about game design. You're butthurt.
No...? I want to remove one facet of tarpitting. You'd still be able to tarpit, it would just require a bit more thought, and not be so completely universal. Zombies could tarpit units of T6 or less, which means most MCs and just about every infantry unit is still vulnerable. Anyone with Krak Grenades could tarpit a Dreadnought or equivalent, and anyone with Meltabombs could tarpit effectively any unit. Plaguebearers wouldn't be able to tarpit T8, but they'd still be able to tarpit vehicles. Heck, even units that can't directly hurt an enemy (Zombies vs Stompas, for example,) could still trip them up by surrounding them and keeping them from running away until someone that can actually hurt it could show up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 04:16:27
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
IOW: You admitted that my first post in the thread was correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
There it is! You don't care about game design. You're butthurt.
No...? I want to remove one facet of tarpitting. You'd still be able to tarpit, it would just require a bit more thought, and not be so completely universal. Zombies could tarpit units of T6 or less, which means most MCs and just about every infantry unit is still vulnerable. Anyone with Krak Grenades could tarpit a Dreadnought or equivalent, and anyone with Meltabombs could tarpit effectively any unit. Plaguebearers wouldn't be able to tarpit T8, but they'd still be able to tarpit vehicles. Heck, even units that can't directly hurt an enemy (Zombies vs Stompas, for example,) could still trip them up by surrounding them and keeping them from running away until someone that can actually hurt it could show up.
No, you want to make sure some of your units can be used mindlessly. If your Dread gets caught by fething Zombies, you deserve the tarpit, not a small slap on the wrist.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 05:55:01
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
IOW: You admitted that my first post in the thread was correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
There it is! You don't care about game design. You're butthurt.
No...? I want to remove one facet of tarpitting. You'd still be able to tarpit, it would just require a bit more thought, and not be so completely universal. Zombies could tarpit units of T6 or less, which means most MCs and just about every infantry unit is still vulnerable. Anyone with Krak Grenades could tarpit a Dreadnought or equivalent, and anyone with Meltabombs could tarpit effectively any unit. Plaguebearers wouldn't be able to tarpit T8, but they'd still be able to tarpit vehicles. Heck, even units that can't directly hurt an enemy (Zombies vs Stompas, for example,) could still trip them up by surrounding them and keeping them from running away until someone that can actually hurt it could show up.
No, you want to make sure some of your units can be used mindlessly. If your Dread gets caught by fething Zombies, you deserve the tarpit, not a small slap on the wrist.
Zombies are just one example, though it's worth pointing out that since a Tsons relic can make Zombies into jump infantry, they're actually pretty quick at getting into tarpits, though.
This also exists to make the many, many ways to get turn-one deep-strike assaults less overpowered. Space Marines and CSM both have cheap, reliable ways to get units into combat anywhere on the board turn one (Raptor Talons and Skyhammers), and most armies (except Tau,) don't have the Interceptor to stop it. Or you can just Deep Strike a unit and use Soulswitch/Electrodisplacement to get them right next to the unit you want to assault. (Heck, you could drop in a DS unit like a Raptor, then use Soulswitch to throw thirty Plague Zombies right into assault range!) Several units have ways of crossing more than 24" and still assaulting as well, which means that simply assaulting from one deployment zone to another is entirely possible. And this is just Imperial armies! If we're including armies that aren't with the Imperium... Well, I'm not as familiar with Xenos codices, but I'm pretty sure options exist.
At least with this, you'd have to bring something that could actually cause damage. It still wouldn't neuter Tarpits, not even close, but it would make it so that cheap tactics would have to have a little thought put behind them.
Or are you arguing that there should be no counter to certain cheap tactics?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 08:34:49
Subject: Re:"Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
Yes, big things like walkers and MCs tend to have few attacks, and are therefore vulnerable to tarpits.
However tarpit units like those zombies are themselves vulnerable to high quantities of low strength attacks, such as from squads of infantry.
So people who take a balanced army, containing a mixture of unit types, aren't going to have this problem.
If you've ignored infantry to instead spam as many knights as you can fit into an army, and those knights get tarpitted... then that's entirely on you.
If you take a skew list, then you're just going to have to deal with its weaknesses.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 09:46:49
Subject: Re:"Their Weapons are Useless"
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought
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Arson Fire wrote:You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
Yes, big things like walkers and MCs tend to have few attacks, and are therefore vulnerable to tarpits.
However tarpit units like those zombies are themselves vulnerable to high quantities of low strength attacks, such as from squads of infantry.
So people who take a balanced army, containing a mixture of unit types, aren't going to have this problem.
If you've ignored infantry to instead spam as many knights as you can fit into an army, and those knights get tarpitted... then that's entirely on you.
If you take a skew list, then you're just going to have to deal with its weaknesses.
Except that those zombies aren't vulnerable to high quantities of low strength attacks either. On average, you would need 80 Space Marines firing at Rapid Fire range to kill a unit of 30 plague zombies, assuming those zombies could get a 5+ cover save.
Bringing a mixture of units can't prevent your big stuff from getting bogged down in combat. If you're playing a mostly shooty army that has fairly little on the assault side (Like, say, Tau,) then it's entirely possible that you'll have absolutely no recourse to get a unit of Zombies out of close combat, at least not quickly. Even Orks struggle to kill zombies and equivalent without using massive, overwhelming force. And of course, it's not just Zombies - 50-man 4++ fearless Guardsman blobs are a fairly commonly seen tactic too. Tarpits are already a really strong tactic.
And I'm not saying that those tarpits should go away entirely, I think I've made that perfectly clear. They absolutely have their purposes. I'm just saying that bogging down armies shouldn't be a completely unstoppable counter for certain builds.
For some reason, you seem to be assuming that I am proposing this because I try to bring spammy one-sided lists, but I don't. I like big models, but I usually stick to about one per game - The problem is, that one model amounts to 25% or more of my total army thanks to how expensive it is, and the fact that some players have a way to completely shut down a quarter or more of my army on turn one, without leaving any way for me to deal with it, is a huge problem.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 12:05:07
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
IOW: You admitted that my first post in the thread was correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
There it is! You don't care about game design. You're butthurt.
No...? I want to remove one facet of tarpitting. You'd still be able to tarpit, it would just require a bit more thought, and not be so completely universal. Zombies could tarpit units of T6 or less, which means most MCs and just about every infantry unit is still vulnerable. Anyone with Krak Grenades could tarpit a Dreadnought or equivalent, and anyone with Meltabombs could tarpit effectively any unit. Plaguebearers wouldn't be able to tarpit T8, but they'd still be able to tarpit vehicles. Heck, even units that can't directly hurt an enemy (Zombies vs Stompas, for example,) could still trip them up by surrounding them and keeping them from running away until someone that can actually hurt it could show up.
No, you want to make sure some of your units can be used mindlessly. If your Dread gets caught by fething Zombies, you deserve the tarpit, not a small slap on the wrist.
Zombies are just one example, though it's worth pointing out that since a Tsons relic can make Zombies into jump infantry, they're actually pretty quick at getting into tarpits, though.
This also exists to make the many, many ways to get turn-one deep-strike assaults less overpowered. Space Marines and CSM both have cheap, reliable ways to get units into combat anywhere on the board turn one (Raptor Talons and Skyhammers), and most armies (except Tau,) don't have the Interceptor to stop it. Or you can just Deep Strike a unit and use Soulswitch/Electrodisplacement to get them right next to the unit you want to assault. (Heck, you could drop in a DS unit like a Raptor, then use Soulswitch to throw thirty Plague Zombies right into assault range!) Several units have ways of crossing more than 24" and still assaulting as well, which means that simply assaulting from one deployment zone to another is entirely possible. And this is just Imperial armies! If we're including armies that aren't with the Imperium... Well, I'm not as familiar with Xenos codices, but I'm pretty sure options exist.
At least with this, you'd have to bring something that could actually cause damage. It still wouldn't neuter Tarpits, not even close, but it would make it so that cheap tactics would have to have a little thought put behind them.
Or are you arguing that there should be no counter to certain cheap tactics?
So the Chaos player is spending at minimum a TS Sorcerer of some kind with a relic or rolling for a specific power, Typhus, and then the zombies, and you think that's super cheap.
No, I don't buy it. The counter is buying high ROF weapons to deal with zombies. If you're that upset your Knights aren't up to par, load them up differently. It is all on you.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 19:22:06
Subject: Re:"Their Weapons are Useless"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Waaaghpower wrote:Arson Fire wrote:You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
Yes, big things like walkers and MCs tend to have few attacks, and are therefore vulnerable to tarpits.
However tarpit units like those zombies are themselves vulnerable to high quantities of low strength attacks, such as from squads of infantry.
So people who take a balanced army, containing a mixture of unit types, aren't going to have this problem.
If you've ignored infantry to instead spam as many knights as you can fit into an army, and those knights get tarpitted... then that's entirely on you.
If you take a skew list, then you're just going to have to deal with its weaknesses.
Except that those zombies aren't vulnerable to high quantities of low strength attacks either. On average, you would need 80 Space Marines firing at Rapid Fire range to kill a unit of 30 plague zombies, assuming those zombies could get a 5+ cover save.
Bringing a mixture of units can't prevent your big stuff from getting bogged down in combat. If you're playing a mostly shooty army that has fairly little on the assault side (Like, say, Tau,) then it's entirely possible that you'll have absolutely no recourse to get a unit of Zombies out of close combat, at least not quickly. Even Orks struggle to kill zombies and equivalent without using massive, overwhelming force. And of course, it's not just Zombies - 50-man 4++ fearless Guardsman blobs are a fairly commonly seen tactic too. Tarpits are already a really strong tactic.
And I'm not saying that those tarpits should go away entirely, I think I've made that perfectly clear. They absolutely have their purposes. I'm just saying that bogging down armies shouldn't be a completely unstoppable counter for certain builds.
For some reason, you seem to be assuming that I am proposing this because I try to bring spammy one-sided lists, but I don't. I like big models, but I usually stick to about one per game - The problem is, that one model amounts to 25% or more of my total army thanks to how expensive it is, and the fact that some players have a way to completely shut down a quarter or more of my army on turn one, without leaving any way for me to deal with it, is a huge problem.
And this is why screening units exist!
IF those zombies are going to charge you turn 1 no matter what you do, then your deployment needs to become defensive. It's your job to control what they're able to attack. Surround your big thing with other units, and they won't be able to reach it. Simple.
If you're taking a balanced list as you say, then I can't see how this is a problem.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/08 22:45:23
Subject: "Their Weapons are Useless"
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I think it's a silly concept based on simple physics myself...but I also think tarpitting is really gamey/boring.
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