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I think tarpitting is a good mechanic and wouldn't like to see it removed. Maybe it makes no sense in some situations but I can picture a horde of hormagaunts climbing up an imperial knight and the... driver (?) being pretty concerned about them tearing into the cockpit. Or hordes of zombies weighing down the feet, or reckless guardsmen all concentrating their shooting into a battle damaged hole somewhere in the armour as they get stood on

Whatever the scenario I think it's a good move on the table and if you're getting tarpitted by T3 bodies you should have considered that beforehand or kept a counter charge unit nearby

I can agree on the bike one to some extent, but I think you have to bear in mind a battle isn't perfectly represented by what happens on the table. If that were the case a battle involving two 1850 armies would be over in real terms in about ten minutes, or maybe just the time it takes for a devastator to shoot his lascannon 6 or 7 times. In reality the bikes probably would have their first charge but then the next time they come around it would be a lot more disordered, their formation would be gone, some guys would have been forcibly dismounted and the area the combat takes place would be larger than is represented on the table. In that situation it wouldn't be so easy to all break off at the same time together

Let me ask this from a different angle, then:
Why are you okay with the "Our weapons are useless!" Rule?
It allows the same thing I'm proposing here, but backwards. You're not allowed to tie up 50 guardsmen with a single 40-point Killa Kan, or 300 points of 'ard boys with an 80-point Penitent Engine or guard-scout-thingey. There's a penalty for running away, but it allows players a way to escape a situation where they're otherwise helpless.

So why are you okay with that rule, but not okay with it being the other way around?

"Our Weapons are Useless" is just choosing to fail a Morale Check. There is an established mechanic in place. Losing 300pts of Orks to a Penitent Engine is very likely if you disengage (Mob Rule?).

Don't forget there's already a mechanic against being swarmed by T3 chaff, Stomp attacks. Tau suits also have Hit and Run through Vectored Retro-Thrusters.

I think you should address why you feel the above is insufficient.

Yoyoyo wrote:
"Our Weapons are Useless" is just choosing to fail a Morale Check. There is an established mechanic in place. Losing 300pts of Orks to a Penitent Engine is very likely if you disengage (Mob Rule?).

Don't forget there's already a mechanic against being swarmed by T3 chaff, Stomp attacks. Tau suits also have Hit and Run through Vectored Retro-Thrusters.

I think you should address why you feel the above is insufficient.

Stomp attacks? That'll kill, what, 10 models, tops, unless your opponent charges through a bottleneck and is forced to place all of his models on top of each other. And assuming that you get the maximum number of stomps, and assuming that you don't roll any '1s' on the Stomp roll. Doing the mathhammer, assuming you can get 5 hits per Stomp, (which is generous,) you're averaging 3.5 wounds per stomp, assuming that the models you're going against don't have any kind of save or FNP. 7 wounds against Zombies is not an efficient way to kill them, not in the slightest.

And as for Vectored Retro-Thrusters, that's only available to Tau. As it happens, a lot of armies aren't Tau. Most of them aren't, in fact!


Still, I see your point about how there's a penalty for using Our Weapons Are Useless. (Sometimes, not always, but there still is a penalty.) I could point out that, in the case of Our Weapons Are Useless, it's a weak enemy running from a vastly more powerful foe, not the other way around, and that a Knight running from guardsmen would probably not have the same problem, but nonetheless. I said in my original post that I thought being able to disengage for free after any combat was too powerful, and was asking for advice on penalties. How about this: If you use "Their weapons are useless" to disengage from a combat, roll a D6. On a 2+, you automatically take a Penetrating Hit or Wound with no saves allowed. On a '6', you instead take D3 Penetrating Hits/Wounds.
(Oh, and since I don't think I added this caveat: Immobilized vehicles, or any model that is incapable of moving due to some other special rule (Such as that one Tau thing that can drop anchor,) obviously shouldn't be able to disengage.)

Most units aren't Zombies. Losing by 7W will almost certainly break morale.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Most units aren't Zombies. Losing by 7W will almost certainly break morale.

Unless you use one of the many, many, many ways to give a unit Stubborn or Fearless or some other equivalent. Like, say, a Ministorum Priest, who only costs 25pts and can give 50 guardsmen Fearless.

feth, what actually happened for you to make this thread? It reeks of butthurt.

Avoiding and creating tarpits is part of the game. It's an equalizer against many units.

I support this rule. Seems good to me.

Martel732 wrote:
Avoiding and creating tarpits is part of the game. It's an equalizer against many units.

This becomes a problem when many tarpits - specifically, loyalist and Chaos ones, I'm less familiar with xenos - have ways to be fast and unavoidable .

Can you not intercept it with any of your own units? What does a force look like that actually suffers from this game mechanic?

I don't understand your thinking with an AM blob either. They have access to 5pt meltabombs as well. So what exactly would your rule accomplish?

Which tarpits are we talking about here specifically? Like spawn?

I don't consider ASM a tarpit unit. They're just terrible at their job. So go ahead and skyhammer into my furioso.

Martel732 wrote:
Which tarpits are we talking about here specifically? Like spawn?

Spawn, sure. Or Jump zombies, soulswitch zombies/electrodisplacement guardsmen, and to a lesser extent, anyone with Deep Strike assault. 17ppm is a little high for a tarpit unit, but Havocs with T5, FNP, and Fearless will still do a pretty darn good job of it. (If nothing else they'll shrug off Stomps.)

I've considered this. My current IK list has a small army of DC right there. If you deep strike and target my knight, you'll be getting assaulted by enough angry guys to end you.

I assumed you meant raptors. They're more than 17 ppm with T5 I assume.

Electrodisplacment requires a non-trivial investment to even get onto the board. I'm more worried about being assaulted by a death star than a tarpit.

Martel732 wrote:
I've considered this. My current IK list has a small army of DC right there. If you deep strike and target my knight, you'll be getting assaulted by enough angry guys to end you.

I assumed you meant raptors. They're more than 17 ppm with T5 I assume.

Electrodisplacment requires a non-trivial investment to even get onto the board. I'm more worried about being assaulted by a death star than a tarpit.

Raptors, yeah, my bad. And I forgot to take into account mark cost - 20ppm, not 17. Still, losing a turn of shooting from a 500pt Dakka knight is no trivial thing, especially when you also have to use even more points to free up the knight.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've considered this. My current IK list has a small army of DC right there. If you deep strike and target my knight, you'll be getting assaulted by enough angry guys to end you.

I assumed you meant raptors. They're more than 17 ppm with T5 I assume.

Electrodisplacment requires a non-trivial investment to even get onto the board. I'm more worried about being assaulted by a death star than a tarpit.

Raptors, yeah, my bad. And I forgot to take into account mark cost - 20ppm, not 17. Still, losing a turn of shooting from a 500pt Dakka knight is no trivial thing, especially when you also have to use even more points to free up the knight.

Well my list uses the Warden, so it's equipped to do both. It clocks in around 420 ish. He's throwing away 100 pts to stop my knight from shooting for a turn. Maybe I kill 100 pts with it, maybe not. Generally, I'm all about my opponent piecemealing himself for me.

Martel732 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've considered this. My current IK list has a small army of DC right there. If you deep strike and target my knight, you'll be getting assaulted by enough angry guys to end you.

I assumed you meant raptors. They're more than 17 ppm with T5 I assume.

Electrodisplacment requires a non-trivial investment to even get onto the board. I'm more worried about being assaulted by a death star than a tarpit.

Raptors, yeah, my bad. And I forgot to take into account mark cost - 20ppm, not 17. Still, losing a turn of shooting from a 500pt Dakka knight is no trivial thing, especially when you also have to use even more points to free up the knight.

Well my list uses the Warden, so it's equipped to do both. It clocks in around 420 ish. He's throwing away 100 pts to stop my knight from shooting for a turn. Maybe I kill 100 pts with it, maybe not. Generally, I'm all about my opponent piecemealing himself for me.

Fair enough, but the Warden isn't as much the type of unit that usually needs to worry about being Tarpitted anyways, at least not to such an extent.
Also, it's worth pointing out that 6 DCA will only deal around 2.5 wounds to Death Guard models in combat. That T5/FNP combo is nasty to get through.


All in all, I guess my problem isn't with tarpits being able to tie big things down in general, it's that there are a lot of ways to bring them in without much way to stop it, and the only solution is to spend even more points to mitigate - But not completely stop - the damage. I have no problem with footslogging zombies or anything else like that, it's the units that can get into close combat without any recourse that bug me and make me think a rule like this is warranted.

Maybe make it a difficult terrain test to move out of combat if they cannot hurt you.

Or maybe dangerous terrain, the Warhound titan might slip on some zombies.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
"Our Weapons are Useless" is just choosing to fail a Morale Check. There is an established mechanic in place. Losing 300pts of Orks to a Penitent Engine is very likely if you disengage (Mob Rule?).

Don't forget there's already a mechanic against being swarmed by T3 chaff, Stomp attacks. Tau suits also have Hit and Run through Vectored Retro-Thrusters.

I think you should address why you feel the above is insufficient.

Stomp attacks? That'll kill, what, 10 models, tops, unless your opponent charges through a bottleneck and is forced to place all of his models on top of each other. And assuming that you get the maximum number of stomps, and assuming that you don't roll any '1s' on the Stomp roll. Doing the mathhammer, assuming you can get 5 hits per Stomp, (which is generous,) you're averaging 3.5 wounds per stomp, assuming that the models you're going against don't have any kind of save or FNP. 7 wounds against Zombies is not an efficient way to kill them, not in the slightest.

And as for Vectored Retro-Thrusters, that's only available to Tau. As it happens, a lot of armies aren't Tau. Most of them aren't, in fact!


Still, I see your point about how there's a penalty for using Our Weapons Are Useless. (Sometimes, not always, but there still is a penalty.) I could point out that, in the case of Our Weapons Are Useless, it's a weak enemy running from a vastly more powerful foe, not the other way around, and that a Knight running from guardsmen would probably not have the same problem, but nonetheless. I said in my original post that I thought being able to disengage for free after any combat was too powerful, and was asking for advice on penalties. How about this: If you use "Their weapons are useless" to disengage from a combat, roll a D6. On a 2+, you automatically take a Penetrating Hit or Wound with no saves allowed. On a '6', you instead take D3 Penetrating Hits/Wounds.
(Oh, and since I don't think I added this caveat: Immobilized vehicles, or any model that is incapable of moving due to some other special rule (Such as that one Tau thing that can drop anchor,) obviously shouldn't be able to disengage.)

Oh no! You don't always roll well on Stomp, the "Get Out Of Jail Free Card" for Super Heavy Walkers and Gargantuan Creatures.

A Trample rule would make sense. I'm just not sure how you implement it, since the missing ingredient here is mass. Toughness doesn't do it. Wounds doesn't do it. There are classifications (Super Heavy, heavy, etc), but without a numerical scale, i'm not sure how you'd implement it, as it'd have to be a stat vs stat comparison to determine how you'd be able to trample.

 Marmatag wrote:
A Trample rule would make sense. I'm just not sure how you implement it, since the missing ingredient here is mass. Toughness doesn't do it. Wounds doesn't do it. There are classifications (Super Heavy, heavy, etc), but without a numerical scale, i'm not sure how you'd implement it, as it'd have to be a stat vs stat comparison to determine how you'd be able to trample.

In 5th edition, Stomp let you replace your Attacks stat with the number of models in the enemy unit, with the caveat that you couldn't use your normal melee weapon and, if I recall, you had to strike at I1. If you got in a fight with a massive horde, you could actually do some real damage to it.
Of course, in 5th edition, Fearless caused the models involved to take wounds if they lost combat, and Super-heavies couldn't be locked in combat, so take that with a grain of salt. Also, it could only happen in Apocalypse games.

What about: "Their models are useless!". If the opponent decides to field something outside of internet wisdom best units, they get emidiately destroyed.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I don't understand your thinking with an AM blob either. They have access to 5pt meltabombs as well. So what exactly would your rule accomplish?

Not everyone buys melta bombs, and this rule encourages you to make combat interesting instead of just taking up time. If you have melta bombs you're rolling to kill the other unit, and fluff-wise they have to respect the threat. If your unit literally can't even attempt to roll dice to hurt the unit it is engaged with why shouldn't the enemy unit be able to ignore the harmless cannon fodder? It's ridiculous that a massive superheavy walker has to even acknowledge the existence of a bunch of guardsmen with no weapons capable of harming it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Maybe it makes no sense in some situations but I can picture a horde of hormagaunts climbing up an imperial knight and the... driver (?) being pretty concerned about them tearing into the cockpit. Or hordes of zombies weighing down the feet, or reckless guardsmen all concentrating their shooting into a battle damaged hole somewhere in the armour as they get stood on

Then these units should have weapons capable of rolling dice to damage the knight, even if it isn't very likely that they will succeed. When the chance of damage is literally zero it's representing a situation where no possible action is going to damage the enemy unit, and there is no reason to care about the nonexistent threat.

 Peregrine wrote:
If your unit literally can't even attempt to roll dice to hurt the unit it is engaged with why shouldn't the enemy unit be able to ignore the harmless cannon fodder?

Infantry being able to exert board control is important.

Otherwise a superheavy or GMC can walk right through a Termagant screen and murder the synapse HQ they supposedly protect.

I don't see what this rule would accomplish except arbitrarily penalizing some units over others.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you have melta bombs you're rolling to kill the other unit, and fluff-wise they have to respect the threat.

Fluff-wise the smartest thing to do would be to leave, before you get blown up by a meltabomb. Duh.

Infantry is capable of wrecking optics and exterior equipment on vehicles even if they can't penetrate the hull. But in this discussion game mechanics really need to take precedence over psuedo-realistic explanations of a fake fantasy future.

A few points, any proposed name for the proposed rule has been trash, and not 40k enough.

"you are beneath me"
"you are pathetic"
something along those lines would be more 40k

Second, I dislike the proposed rule as legitimate tarpit units at legitimate costs are slow, like... Tar in fact.
If your opponent spends 400+ points supporting a tar pit to make it fast/more invulnerable, you should have quite an army advantage from there 2,000 points and under.

So... you want to make my IG tarpits unable to tarpit walkers/MC's, literally removing any counter I have to high str MC's/walkers and SHW/GC's smashing through my lines and ripping apart my vehicles. I cannot even count how many times I've learned the hard lesson that you MUST support armor and lords of war with infantry to make them survive. I always bring blobs of Guardsman because I HAVE to tarpit things if any of my heavy hitting vehicles are going to survive the first game turn.

Don't like tarpits? Try bringing something to deal with them. Do you know how easy it is to ally in IG wyverns? For 475 points you can ally in an emperor's wrath artillery formation with 2 wyverns, 1 manticore, a CCS with chimera and Volkov's cane, and a techpriest to keep them firing even if they get stunned or shaken. So for 475 points you can lay down 8 TL, shred, ignores cover small blasts, and a D3 STR 10 AP4 ordnance, ignores cover (using the orders) large blasts every turn, anywhere on the board. You can remove an entire tarpit every turn with this, snipe characters using the barrage, laugh at jink saves, and even destroy AV14 vehicles. Alternatively, you can just take an allied detachment and pay the 60 pt CCS and 60 pt vet squad tax to spam 3 wyverns.

Seriously.. it's not that hard to deal with tarpits, and IG are not the only ones with an answer to them either, so I'm just going to say "Bro, do you even tactics?"

Also, tarpits are not actually that cheap. Even a 50 man conscript squad with priest is 175 points, which is a considerable investment for a guard army, and I have to pay a tax of 2 guardsman squads and PCS squad just to get conscripts, so I usually end up using Guardsman blobs that cost 275 points with a priest instead. It get pricey.

I'm going to point something out that you people seem not to be realizing:
This rule does not stop you from using large, cheap units to exert board control. Screening units will still function in exactly the same way. You can still get in the way of models. You can still tarpit lots of enemies, too.

Also, anyone saying that it's not that hard to deal with tarpits has clearly never played a game against 120+ zombies that regenerate with two optional rolls of 4+.

Waaaghpower wrote:


Also, anyone saying that it's not that hard to deal with tarpits has clearly never played a game against 120+ zombies that regenerate with two optional rolls of 4+.

Its not hard to outrun units that can only move 6" per turn. If you regularly run across 120+ zombies, time to bring some flamers. a lot harder to successfully charge versus 4d3 wall of death. OR bring sentinel/rhino/spare dreadnought for few points to tie up their tarpit, as fearless cannot run away. And again, 600 (150 for 35, x4 for 120) points in zombies, that have no FNP with s6 able to ignore it, you should have a significant amount of army advantage versus the 1 trick pony.
Does my riptide get to ignore melee because its unreasonable for a t6 MC that shooting oriented to stay in melee?

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'm going to point something out that you people seem not to be realizing:
This rule does not stop you from using large, cheap units to exert board control. Screening units will still function in exactly the same way. You can still get in the way of models. You can still tarpit lots of enemies, too.

Also, anyone saying that it's not that hard to deal with tarpits has clearly never played a game against 120+ zombies that regenerate with two optional rolls of 4+.

No... that's exactly what the rule does. It's impossible to exert any board control against an enemy that can simply disengage his units from yours at will or wade through yours to get to your important units and smash them to pieces.

Also, I've fought zombies multiple times. They're never scary. I already provided solutions to them, solutions that don't even cost many points.

Dude... Plague Zombies in the CSM codex have a 5+ FNP, cost 4pts a model, have a 10pt champ tax, and require a 270pt HQ to unlock.

Your issue is specifically with Vraks Renegades. Which maybe you ought to finally address directly!