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You are aware Cultists don't have Meltabombs?

Yoyoyo wrote:
You are aware Cultists don't have Meltabombs?

Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

What a red herring.

"I can roll one attack a turn" doesn't salvage a mechanic that's being criticized.

Locking big creatures with tarpit units is either a fun and valid strategy, or it's not.

That's a much more important consideration than arguing over what units have or don't have meltabombs.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You are aware Cultists don't have Meltabombs?

Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

Then maybe you shouldn't take a superheavy. If you are afraid of it getting tarpitted and refuse to take any other steps towards avoiding slow and easy-to-kill footsloggers?

Going back to thread. It's clearly a buff to vehicles, superheavies and especially gmc that has a very unpraportional effect on different armies and different playstyles. It has literally no effect on shooty armies and nerfs footsloggers even harder - and they're not at their finest as is.

If you want to nerf one playstyle (that's not really all that great), the side that suffers a nerf should probably get some sort of counter-balancing rule to avoid it being one-sided. Cause otherwise you're just taking away the sole purpose of tarpits - getting frightening stuff bogged down via superior positioning and movement on the general's part.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You are aware Cultists don't have Meltabombs?

Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

If the counter-advice is telling someone what units to take and not to take, then surely the concept of rock paper scissors is alive and well, and a horde of zombies is a superheavies paper to it's rock? If a cultist list is expected to bring melta bomb units to help them against vehicles, then it's fair to expect a list featuring a superheavy to invest the points in burnas or pie plates to counter the hordes that gum it up.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You are aware Cultists don't have Meltabombs?

Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

In other words:

Player 1: Unit X can't tarpit Unit Y.
Player 2: Unit Y can be damaged if you take Upgrade Q.
Player 1: Unit X can't take Upgrade Q.
Player 2: Then take Unit Z and make the tarpit unit redundant.

The whole crux of this is so units which CAN'T damage a vehicle can still do something. By this logic, if you admit that the unit is useless, why should that unit exist? In that case, if only the best units can be taken, we'd be looking at a few units in the whole game.

Player 1 wants Unit X.
Player 2 wants Unit Y.
Why should it be Player 1 who has to change and take Unit Z instead? Why doesn't Player 2 invest in Unit A which counters Unit X.

By keeping tarpitting, the units that can't purchase tank-killing weapons are still somewhat relevant.

Except non-AV units still matter. They're cheap objective holders, they can tie up other things (like that T5 deathstar, for isntance-they can still hurt it), they can add a(n admittedly small amount of) firepower...

Waaaghpower wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What if we give everyone the ability to disengage from any other combat - it seems logical. And than cherry pick the units from which you can't disengage and grant them the "Our weapons are very useful" special rule.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion, or are you just going to keep making wisecracks that aren't really relevant?

Sure sounds relevant to me. Right now, we have only units which have Hit & Run or run in to the "Their Weapons are Useless" situation. This thread is about trying to add to that list. Koooaei is only making a suggestion to expand that.

I note you didn't accuse the person of making wisecracks of the concept that proposed for allowing Walkers to Tank Shock. Sure, this runs in to the problem that a unit cannot Move while Engaged, which is required to Tank Shock, but that doesn't make it any less a wisecrack than what Koooaei stated.

Peregrine wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You are aware Cultists don't have Meltabombs?

Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

So every unit should be able to answer every question at all times? The game isn't set up to do that. Sure, applying the proper units to their proper targets is important, but it is not always feasible. Sometimes the best thing is for that Cultist unit to charge in to speed bump that Walker, even without Grenades/Power Fist. And sometimes, you don't want them to be Charged by it, but are not given any other option of escaping.

I think this forum is a place where people who just lost a game come to try to change what made them lost.

Walkers and MC fighting against models that cannot hurt them, and refuse to disengage due to 'Your weapons are useless' double their attacks and hit on a 3+.

This represents the lack of skills and finesse required of the walkers and monstrous creatures to kills their opponents. They have no concern in putting up an adequate defence as they don't need to, so can go on an all out attack.

Tarpit can still act as a road block, but the big nasties have an actual chance of not being held up all game.

I'd rather give re-roll to hit or wound and call it done. No reason a ws2 walker should be able to hit a ws5 assassin or something on a 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is IF something had to change. I think it's fine, but I'm probably biased.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I'd rather give re-roll to hit or wound and call it done. No reason a ws2 walker should be able to hit a ws5 assassin or something on a 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is IF something had to change. I think it's fine, but I'm probably biased.

I'd put a special rule on riptides that negates my suggestion.

Or make my suggestion a special rule and give it to most walkers and MC's. Riptides, storm surges, Mortis Pattern dreadnaught... Anything shooty wouldn't get it.

Can we go back and highlight something.

If I want to bring a big, shooty something, I also have to buy _______ so that the thing I actually want to use isn't rendered useless on turn 1.

Ideally, the answer would be "a well-balanced force".

What was the actual response?

useless ablative wounds to sit in a circle singing kum-bay-ah

Maybe this is the real problem.

Going back to a possible penalty for such a rule.

Their weapons are useless-At the beginning of the assault phase, a model or unit engaged with another unit that is completely unable to damage it, may attempt to disengage by moving up to 6 inches from its current position. The unit MUST end its movement at least 1 inch away from the unit it was engaged with. If it is unable to do so, it may not disengage.

Furthermore, for every enemy model that the disengaging model pass over, that model may make a single attack that has rending, and automatically wounds targets on a roll of a 6. Furthermore the disengaging unit is treated as being at WS 1 for these attacks..

So basically this scales with the size of the tarpit. A dreadnought walking through a thick horde of zombies may be glanced to death on its way out.

I'm considering making these attacks taken against rear armor as well. It makes this a VERY dangerous option, but that may be what it should be.

I like the top part actually. It makes it able to break free after a couple turns of thinning.

I think a free auto-hit on the rear armor is reasonable, but not with Rending (which gives auto-wounding anyways). The whole point is that they can't hurt it..

Well, I'm gonna add my two cent. I agree fluff wise, it really doesn't make sense that a dread can't just bat away a guardsman and carry on walking. However, gameplay wise, I think it adds another level of tactics, and forces generals to keep on their toes. You can't just ignore the 50 man unit of conscripts, you have to allocate flamers, blast templates and high ROF weapons to kill them or put your own lighter units in the way so your heavier units can duke it out with your enemy's.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Well, I'm gonna add my two cent. I agree fluff wise, it really doesn't make sense that a dread can't just bat away a guardsman and carry on walking. However, gameplay wise, I think it adds another level of tactics, and forces generals to keep on their toes. You can't just ignore the 50 man unit of conscripts, you have to allocate flamers, blast templates and high ROF weapons to kill them or put your own lighter units in the way so your heavier units can duke it out with your enemy's.

This has been discussed pretty heavily above, but I'll re-summarize my opinions here:
I have never said that you should be able to completely ignore the 50 man unit of conscripts. What I've said is that the 50 man unit of conscripts (Or any other similar squad) shouldn't be able to shut down 500+ point models for the entirety of the game. One unit of Conscripts with a Ministorum Priest can effectively tarpit just about any big model, and there's not much that the big model can do about it except hide on the far side of the board. This is, of course, assuming that the tarpit doesn't have any way to move quickly - The unfortunate thing is that, due to many psychic powers, relics, and other methods, it's exceedingly easy nowadays to get a tarpit within striking range very, very quickly.

Or, to put it another way: Tarpits shouldn't be a one-stop-shop to shut down any model that isn't a vehicle. (And vehicles pretty much all suck, so we'll just say 'A one stop shop to shut down any good model.') They should require some level of thought for who they'll be used against.

BA are pretty decent at breaking tarpits with DC and such. Most armies have units that can break most tarpits. You just need to bring them.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are pretty decent at breaking tarpits with DC and such. Most armies have units that can break most tarpits. You just need to bring them.

BA can kill 50 conscripts? With WHAT? Because I need to be bringing more of that. And, either way, if you're bringing several hundred points of models, in order to protect many more several hundred points invested in another model, in order to waylay 175 points of a tarpit, that's just not a winning point equation. (Srsly. Conscripts mostly lack the fast movement that zombies can get access to, but at 3ppm plus 25 to get the Priest you'll need, they're an insane amount of bodies for hardly any points. 700 points gets you 204 fearless bodies.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mathhammer trivia:
It takes 65 charging BA Assault Marines in order to kill 51 Conscripts with rerollable saves.

So by paying 5 points, the rule is negated. Seems like a pointless rule to me, because what we really need in the game is more pointless rules that force you to jump through hoops to stay effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Mathhammer trivia:
It takes 65 charging BA Assault Marines in order to kill 51 Conscripts with rerollable saves.

It takes maybe 5 to 10 charging blood angels to hold up 51 conscripts for a lot of turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

What Peregrine says about taking anti-vehicle units applies also to anti-infantry. If you want to slap a lazcannon on every unit, go ahead, the mechanised forces of the galaxy will tremble. But an ork horde will just laugh and tear you to pieces with power claws. And we can all agree that dead dreadnoughts are worse than tarpitted dreadnaughts.

The conscripts don't look so good if the priest gets barrage sniped. And yeah, I use whirlwinds because they are cheap and effective with the squadron bonus. The conscripts don't magically get to start in close combat with my units. My army is fast. I decide when to engage and which unit will engage.

I understand what you're saying, but you'll never convince me that tarpits are nearly as fearsome as deleting my army by turn 3.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Sort of. Adding a Meltabomb or some other equivalent weapon doesn't let you tarpit indefinitely, because you have to keep the Meltabomb alive. It lets you tarpit temporarily, while still offering the tarpitted model/s the opportunity to escape unless your whole squad can level serious damage at the target. It also means that, rather than having to kill 50+ models in order to stop a tarpit, you can snipe out certain targets and be golden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Mathhammer trivia:
It takes 65 charging BA Assault Marines in order to kill 51 Conscripts with rerollable saves.

It takes maybe 5 to 10 charging blood angels to hold up 51 conscripts for a lot of turns.

That's only true if the blood angels charge first. If the conscripts get the charge, you aren't getting them unstuck from whatever they tarpitted. Someone brought a librarian with Soulswitch? Bye bye, Warhound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


Then maybe you should take a unit that can have them. If you refuse to take anti-vehicle units in your army why should you be able to deal with a vehicle?

What Peregrine says about taking anti-vehicle units applies also to anti-infantry. If you want to slap a lazcannon on every unit, go ahead, the mechanised forces of the galaxy will tremble. But an ork horde will just laugh and tear you to pieces with power claws. And we can all agree that dead dreadnoughts are worse than tarpitted dreadnaughts.

Two things:
One, Lascannons don't make mechanised forces tremble.
Two, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. Tarpits should not be a universal solution to stopping any enemy! If you have a Tarpit, and have some kind of method of making them move slightly quicker than the norm, then you can shut down just about any enemy unit without much of a significant threat to your person.
(Two point five: Sometimes a dead dread is better, because it might explode and kill some orks, and it opens up the enemy unit to being shot at.)

Martel732 wrote:
The conscripts don't look so good if the priest gets barrage sniped. And yeah, I use whirlwinds because they are cheap and effective with the squadron bonus. The conscripts don't magically get to start in close combat with my units. My army is fast. I decide when to engage and which unit will engage.

I understand what you're saying, but you'll never convince me that tarpits are nearly as fearsome as deleting my army by turn 3.

Those conscripts have Space Marine allies that can drop them wherever they need to be. Worldwrithe/Whatever the imperial equivalent is, Gate of Infinity sort-of works, Soulswitch. Or you use a Skyhammer as a psuedo-tarpit until you can get the real one in place. (5 Assault Marines have an above-70% chance of surviving one turn of combat against a Knight, especially if they spread out. That's 85 points of models, trapping 400+ for the first turn, which is usually the most critical.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
Tarpits should not be a universal solution to stopping any enemy!

They really aren't. You also forget a simple thing. If you have means of making your tarpit faster and durable enough to not evaporate on the way, you're investing quite some points into support. And the tarpit is incapable of doing anything else other than just be there.

Those psychic powers just don't happen automatically. And librarians are easy to kill. So now you have to invest in keeping them alive. I'm personally not worried about my IK getting tarpitted in the manner in which you describe.

But tarpits aren't a universal solution. As I said, they can be killed through a variety of options that they have no real counter for. Nor do they have killing power of their own unless against similarly weak opponents, so what's the problem? If you haven't brought anything to kill lots of infantry, then sacrifice a insignificant unit to the tarpit. Like say, a 30 point sentinel. They have to disengage because their weapons are useless and they don't want to waste time on a sentinel, then charge them again. Or just bring flamers. Because, y'know, they exist for a reason.

Did I mention BA have a crap ton of flamers?

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
But tarpits aren't a universal solution. As I said, they can be killed through a variety of options that they have no real counter for. Nor do they have killing power of their own unless against similarly weak opponents, so what's the problem? If you haven't brought anything to kill lots of infantry, then sacrifice a insignificant unit to the tarpit. Like say, a 30 point sentinel. They have to disengage because their weapons are useless and they don't want to waste time on a sentinel, then charge them again. Or just bring flamers. Because, y'know, they exist for a reason.

Plus, if they've made their tarpit unit fearless/zealot, then they can't even opt to use "Our Weapons Are Useless" themselves. They have no way of escaping that 30 point sentinel, and are doomed to ineffectively scratch at its front armour til the end of time.

Arson Fire wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
But tarpits aren't a universal solution. As I said, they can be killed through a variety of options that they have no real counter for. Nor do they have killing power of their own unless against similarly weak opponents, so what's the problem? If you haven't brought anything to kill lots of infantry, then sacrifice a insignificant unit to the tarpit. Like say, a 30 point sentinel. They have to disengage because their weapons are useless and they don't want to waste time on a sentinel, then charge them again. Or just bring flamers. Because, y'know, they exist for a reason.

Plus, if they've made their tarpit unit fearless/zealot, then they can't even opt to use "Our Weapons Are Useless" themselves. They have no way of escaping that 30 point sentinel, and are doomed to ineffectively scratch at its front armour til the end of time.

Which makes sense for SOME units (Zombies, for instance) but not others (Chaplain with Assault Marines). I get that they're fearless, but they're not stupid, one would think.

...

Wait, bad example. The Chaplain has a Crozius, so it CAN hurt the Sentinel. But you get my point.

I was just amused, because this is a thread complaining about single big models getting tied up by hordes of little guys.
But here we have an example where that same horde of little guys gets tied up in the same way by a single much cheaper model.

Although in this case I suppose there's no bailing them out. Once they have that sentinel surrounded, another stronger unit won't be able to reach it.
Sucks to be those zombies I guess (can't imagine the sentinel pilot is exactly thrilled with the situation either).