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Was just reading through the supplement and had a quick question. If I cast Forewarning on a unit of Rubric marines, do they get 4++, then 1++ from Mark of Tzeentch and 1++ from blessing of Tzeentch, making them 2++? Or does it only affect their base save giving them 2 4++ saves (making Forewarning redundant)?

Thanks!

Mark of Tzeentch prevents them from ever having lower than 3+, which is what they'd have if you cast Forewarning on them.

MoT has a max of 3++ so they would have a 3++. That being said if you casted something that added +2 to thier invul then you would get a 2++ , though some people think you can only ever have a 3++, in my opinion if you apply MoT last it can't improve the invul anymore so has no effect. The only way to get a 2++ using forewarning would be to cast sanctuary ( 4+from forewarning 3+ from sanctuary then 2+ from BoT)

The FAQ states any Hard Cap ability is always applied last.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The FAQ states any Hard Cap ability is always applied last.

Indeed, but does Mark of Tzeentch say that the model can never have better than a 3++, or that MoT can never be used to gain better than a 3++

For example, if you cast both ForeWarning and Sanctuary on a unit from a Tson detachment, they would have a 2++ without even factoring in MoT.
The last time I read the rule for MoT, it didn't seem to restrict the model from ever gaining a 2++, merely that MoT "shuts off" if other factors make it to 3++ or better.

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You have better than 3++, and MoT was applied at some point. MoT was used for better than 3++.

Even if you had some various rule that get you to -8++(rolled back up to 2++ because saves can never be better than 2+), all special rules are always applied; so MoT is part of making the save better and thus its hard-cap of 3++ is also applied.

Oder of application does not matter: it was involved in making the save better and its cap applies.

Forewarning is a Blessing that gives a 3++. Combined with Blessing of Tzeentch, which gives +1 to your Invul save if you have successfully had a Blessing cast on the unit. Therefore, the 2++ is not in any way achieved through the MoT. No order of operations necessary.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You have better than 3++, and MoT was applied at some point. MoT was used for better than 3++.

Even if you had some various rule that get you to -8++(rolled back up to 2++ because saves can never be better than 2+), all special rules are always applied; so MoT is part of making the save better and thus its hard-cap of 3++ is also applied.

Oder of application does not matter: it was involved in making the save better and its cap applies.

MoT says (to a max of 3+) if you are at 2++ then you CAN'T apply it. Under your logic I could simply apply it first and say MoT didn't take me below 3++ to it.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You have better than 3++, and MoT was applied at some point. MoT was used for better than 3++.

Even if you had some various rule that get you to -8++(rolled back up to 2++ because saves can never be better than 2+), all special rules are always applied; so MoT is part of making the save better and thus its hard-cap of 3++ is also applied.

Oder of application does not matter: it was involved in making the save better and its cap applies.

MoT says (to a max of 3+) if you are at 2++ then you CAN'T apply it. Under your logic I could simply apply it first and say MoT didn't take me below 3++ to it.

This is exactly my point as well. MoT hard caps ITS bonus, not the model's capability to get further bonuses.
You apply all ++ modifiers and if the total would be better than 3++, then MoT hard caps ITSELF and ceases to apply.

So in my earlier example of Forewarning + Sanctuary + Blessing of Tzeentch would grant the model a 2++.
MoT would still be applied, but since the total save is better than 3++, MoT would not add a further +1.
No where in the MoT rule does it say that the model cannot receive a 2++, merely that the MoT bonus will not apply if it would cause the model to gain a 2++.

Bottom line: MoT does NOT prevent other bonuses from applying as normal

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 Yarium wrote:
Forewarning is a Blessing that gives a 3++. Combined with Blessing of Tzeentch, which gives +1 to your Invul save if you have successfully had a Blessing cast on the unit. Therefore, the 2++ is not in any way achieved through the MoT. No order of operations necessary.

Then the next question is can you choose not to use the Mark of Tzeentch?

so theoretically speaking if you have a 3++ save base and an ability that said "+1 to invuln saves but to a max of 4++" then you'd actually be stuck with a 4++ save? That seems a bit stupid, tbh.

nekooni wrote:
so theoretically speaking if you have a 3++ save base and an ability that said "+1 to invuln saves but to a max of 4++" then you'd actually be stuck with a 4++ save? That seems a bit stupid, tbh.

What is dumb about this line of thinking is that one of the ENTIRE army's themes is based around better invuls. Whether it is MoT, Daemon of Tzeentch, Blessing of Tzeetch or any other rule that ends in "of Tzeentch", all of these rule grant a bonus to invuls. Saying that one of them "hard caps" all other possible invul bonuses is incredibly anti-RAI.
To think that a non-Tzeencth unit can get 2++ saves all day, yet MoT puts its hand up and says "not today, devoted servant" is a bit ridiculous.

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 Yarium wrote:
Forewarning is a Blessing that gives a 3++. Combined with Blessing of Tzeentch, which gives +1 to your Invul save if you have successfully had a Blessing cast on the unit. Therefore, the 2++ is not in any way achieved through the MoT. No order of operations necessary.

Forewarning only gives a 4++.

First off: we are not talking about "my interpretation" we ate talking about what the FAQ actually says. So there really is no room for argument.

Second; yes, my interpretation is in alignment with what the FAQ says. We have no permission not to apply special rules unless specified by those individual special rules. Whether you apply MoT first or last does not matter; a +1 invulnerable save is being applied and a maximum of 3++is tied to that +1.

Honestly, this question needs a direct, specific faq answer.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
First off: we are not talking about "my interpretation" we ate talking about what the FAQ actually says. So there really is no room for argument.

Second; yes, my interpretation is in alignment with what the FAQ says. We have no permission not to apply special rules unless specified by those individual special rules. Whether you apply MoT first or last does not matter; a +1 invulnerable save is being applied and a maximum of 3++is tied to that +1.

Does the FAQ you are referring to specifically reference MoT? Or does it just refer to general rules that "hard cap" all bonus a model is allowed?

If it specifically addresses MoT, than cool, we can move on.

If it only addresses "hard cap" rules, then we will still disagree because MoT only hard caps ITS bonus, nor does it say that the model can NEVER have better than 3++
We are given specific permission by those other rules to apply their bonuses, and MoT says nothing about preventing them from applying

To me, this issue comes down to permission. MoT does not specifically take away the permission other bonuses have to apply. MoT only denies permission for ITS bonus to apply if said application would take it past a certain value.
It's the same argument about Psykers having access to Daemonology: if the BRB gives permission to have Malefic AND Santic, then just writing Santic on a unit's list of available disciplines does NOT take away the BRB's inherent permission. RAI aside, we always need clear permission AND denial of permission

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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You have better than 3++, and MoT was applied at some point. MoT was used for better than 3++.

Even if you had some various rule that get you to -8++(rolled back up to 2++ because saves can never be better than 2+), all special rules are always applied; so MoT is part of making the save better and thus its hard-cap of 3++ is also applied.

Oder of application does not matter: it was involved in making the save better and its cap applies.

If the opponent used something to degrade the invulnerable save, however, order of application most certainly would apply. The hard cap would kick in after the negative modifier, so if it were a 2++ and had a -1 modifier applied, the -1 would come off the 2++ with the hard cap kicking in after that, not the hard cap taking place before the negative modifier is applied.

Other than that exception, however, I agree that the hard cap is going to apply at the end with MoT being used. The Rubric does not get a 2++ because of the hard cap.

Sorry, thought it was the Chaos Space Marine equivalent of the Adeptus Astartes Fulmination Power that gives the 3++ Inv. Yes, in Forewarning, if it's a 4++ base, then you can't get better than 3++ in this situation as to get better than 3++ you'd need the Mark of Tzeentch, which isn't allowed to be factored into anything that would bring your save up higher than 3++.

nekooni wrote:
so theoretically speaking if you have a 3++ save base and an ability that said "+1 to invuln saves but to a max of 4++" then you'd actually be stuck with a 4++ save? That seems a bit stupid, tbh.

Yeah I agree. It seems to me that even if MoT was resolved last it would simply be discarded. The rule is worded in a way that doesn't prevent the unit from having a better than 3++ save, but rather prevents MoT from being used to have that better than 3++ save. But hey, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the rules.

On a tangentially related note: if I have to generate 1 psychic power from the discipline of Tzeentch does that mean I have never have the primaris power of any other discipline?

Thanks!

Now i dont have the book in front me, but I don't remember at all the Mark of Tzeentch saying that the model can never have better than a 3++

Think its said that thanks to the +1 from the mark cant go better than 3++. That is far from "doesnt allow a better save than 3++"


Is bad redacted and need be faqed? of course. But is not so clear as some try to show it haha

 mazik765 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
so theoretically speaking if you have a 3++ save base and an ability that said "+1 to invuln saves but to a max of 4++" then you'd actually be stuck with a 4++ save? That seems a bit stupid, tbh.

Yeah I agree. It seems to me that even if MoT was resolved last it would simply be discarded. The rule is worded in a way that doesn't prevent the unit from having a better than 3++ save, but rather prevents MoT from being used to have that better than 3++ save. But hey, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the rules.

On a tangentially related note: if I have to generate 1 psychic power from the discipline of Tzeentch does that mean I have never have the primaris power of any other discipline?

Thanks!

You can trade for the Primaris Power but you cant get it automatically. To be clear even if they change the rule to "always have a primaris of chosen god" you still wouldn't get the primaris for free you have to have all your spells from the same school.

So in a similar thread (3+ FNP on Haemonculus) it was brought up that we cannot find the FAQ about "hard cap modifiers".
I looked and could not find it. Can anyone enlighten us to where it is?

If it no longer exists, then clearly we must go off the wording for MoT, which does NOT prevent other bonuses from applying. MoT cannot take a model's invul past 3++, but other means are not stopped from working.

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The closest thing I could find was from the Necron DraFtAQ:

Q: When fielding a Decurion Detachment (giving models within it with Reanimation Protocols a +1 bonus to their Reanimation Protocols rolls), how do further modifiers to Reanimation Protocols (for having a Cryptek in the unit, for example) interact with the -1 modifier from the Instant Death special rule?
A: The end result can never be improved beyond a 4+ after all modifiers (both positive and negative) have been applied. In this situation, the required Reanimation Protocols roll would therefore be 4+ after the three relevant modifiers (two +1 modifiers and one -1 modifier) had been applied.

Where it specifically says that you factor in all modifiers, and then apply the cap.

Ah good. Thanks for finding that.






Too bad it only applies to Necron Reanimation Protocol, )which had a hard cap to begin with) and not this issue
We might be able to apply this logic IF invul saves themselves had a hard cap (besides the usual 2+ like every save)
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 Galef wrote:
Ah good. Thanks for finding that.

Too bad it only applies to Necron Reanimation Protocol, )which had a hard cap to begin with) and not this issue
We might be able to apply this logic IF invul saves themselves had a hard cap (besides the usual 2+ like every save)
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Not to mention there is a huge difference between Reanimation Protocols limit and Mark of Tzeentch's limit. The limit for Reanimation Protocols is for the rule itself. Mark of Tzeentch's limit is not to the Invulnerable Save, but only its contribution to it, as has been pointed out.

The way I see this is it all comes down to the sequence in which it is all applied.

If the tzeentch bonus is the last one then you gwt stuck at a 3++ but if you did it first another bonus could take you to 2++.

The problem is you'd only ever get that 2++ in your turns because sequencing is decided by whoever's turn it is.

That's my thoughts on the matter though.

There's no sequence. Check at the end to see if you've violated any conditions. If something with the Mark of Tzeentch now has a 2+ invulnerable save, it has.

To the people who say no to not using the mark my question is if you had the mark of tzeentch and something that gives you a 2++ save then does the mark lower it to a 3++ ?

You do not have permission from the game to ignore Mark of Tzeentch, therefore it always applies. Thus, any model with Mark of Tzeentch is capped at a 3++.

This game is a permissive ruleset. You have no permissions to ignore special rules, especially because they happen to work against you in one scenario.

 Crazyterran wrote:
You do not have permission from the game to ignore Mark of Tzeentch, therefore it always applies. Thus, any model with Mark of Tzeentch is capped at a 3++.

This game is a permissive rule set. You have no permissions to ignore special rules, especially because they happen to work against you in one scenario.

Your not ignoring it, your applying it last which means it has no effect, which means any cap that would be applied would then be ignored, you can't say oh you didn't benefit from this thing, that you paid points for, so now you have to use the cap which is a debuff for your unit/model.