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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Your not ignoring it, your applying it last which means it has no effect

This is not how the rules work. Just because a modifier is redundant doesn't mean it stops having an effect. Mark of Tzeentch is still there and is still in effect even if you can get to 2++ with out its +1 Invul effect.

Why do people keep saying the model is "capped" at 3++?
MoT does not cap the models ++ save.
The rule says: "A model with MoT has +1 invul save to a max of 3++"
It does NOT say: "A model's invul can never be better than 3++ no matter how many OTHER bonuses"

As has been mentioned, 40K is a permissive ruleset. Forewarning, Sanctuary, Blessing of Tz, all give permission to increase a model's invul. MoT does NOT disallow this permission.
MoT adds +1 invul UNLESS the total bonuses would give the model better than 3++. If that happens, only MoT stops adding +1 per its rule, but is still "on"

So it doesn't matter if you add MoT first, last or all at once. If the OTHER bonuses alone take the save to 2++, the model has a 2++

It works just like the DE Cronos. The Cronos adds +1 FNP, but cannot take that passed 4+. This does not prevent, say, Warp Flame, from allowing the model a 3+ FNP. It simply means that the model cannot use the Cronos bonus as a factor to get to 3++. The model would need OTHER total bonuses to reach it.
For example: Haemi + Nightmare doll + Warpflame = 3+ FNP. Suddenly being in range of a Cronos would NOT give it -1 FNP.

-

Most (all?) who claim that a model with MoT can never have a better save than 3++ are missquoting the actual rules for MoT, which is quite ironic.

MoT doesn't give the model a blanket cap of 3++, it gives itself a cap of 3++.
The rule basically states that it "adds one to the models invuln (to a maximum of 3++)", *not* that it "adds one to the models invuln (and a maximum of 3++)".

"To a" makes all the difference from "and a" in this situation. If it was the latter it would be clear that the model could never have a 2++ in any given situation. Now though, it's clear that MoT only caps the invuln it itself grants the model, not *all* invulns.

Luckily for everyone though, there are very few model's who can actually obtain a 2++ with Blessing of Tzeentch (not Mark of Tzeentch) and that is the sorcerer himself, since afaik the only powers Chaos Sorcerers can take that grant anyone a 3++ are powers that only affect the caster themselves, and not their unit(s).

So what is the point of a rule restriction if you can ALWAYS override it with very simple order of apply?
When this cap to 3++ actually work?

But you aren't overriding it, nor changing in which order to apply the rules, since the rules aren't mutually exclusive; MoT is still there and does it's thing - it just doesn't have any effect at that point; It doesn't increase your invul (because you have a 3++ or better already), but nor does it block your invuln (because it only caps the bonus it itself grants, given the wording of MoT.)

For example if you have a 3++ an the mark. Then will stay at the 3++.


About the overall cap on 3++ is a free invented rule/interpretation since the description doesnt mention it anywhere. The mark adds one to the models invuln to a maximum of 3++. Where you read that the model never will be able to get a 2++? The description only reffers to the mark bonus.

Is the same than a power or a rule that says "The model will have +1 to the strength to a maximum of 6. Give him a powerfist and say that the strength is 6 (and not the double of his base S) because the rule.....

Franarok wrote:
Where you read that the model never will be able to get a 2++?

In the codex, where it says exactly that.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Where you read that the model never will be able to get a 2++?

In the codex, where it says exactly that.

No it does not say "exactly that" it says nothing like that. It says "MoT improves invul saves to a max of 3+" that means it can improve invul saves that are between 4++ and 6++ anything else it can't improve. That is not a hard cap that is a limit on use, there is a very big difference.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Where you read that the model never will be able to get a 2++?

In the codex, where it says exactly that.

Open up your codex and you'll see that thats not at all what MoT says. In fact, the words "never", "able" and "2++/2+ invulnerable" aren't even mentioned.
If you dont have the codex however (or know the actual wording of the rule), then I'm unsure why you're in this thread, telling people how the rule works.
(And that goes for everyone who misquotes the rules we're discussing. If you're making stuff up, you're derailing the discussion, so please don't.)

 danyboy wrote:
So what is the point of a rule restriction if you can ALWAYS override it with very simple order of apply?
When this cap to 3++ actually work?

Because there are plenty of situations in which a model would have a 2++ without the restriction on MoT. Invul bonuses are hard to guarantee, since most are randomly rolled powers
By not allowing MoT to add +1 further than the 3++, you minimize an armies ability to get 2++ all over the place.

Let's look at the average bonuses a Tsons army would have: All Rubics come with 4++ due to MoT & Aura of Dark Glory. Cast any blessing on them and they get 3++.
This is all but guaranteed to happen. By making MoT not allowed to add past 3++, it prevents a single power like Sancutary or Forewarning from being all you need to get the 2++
You essentially need multiple blessings to get a 2++, just like every other army (that has access to powers).
The order in which you apply the bonuses does not matter. MoT will add +1 whether added first, last or in the middle. And it will cease to add +1 if the total bonuses pass 3++ at ANY point.

That is the point of MoT having its own cap.

-

Think of it like this. My rubric sorcerer cast the spell sanctuary. I cast but peril. Roll a six and pass my leadership test. My sorcerer now has a 2++ because I get 3++ for the inv buff of peril and +1 from sanctuary. MoT can´t be applied at this point because it would take me to 1++.

Next my opponent hits me with null zone which drops me to 3++. Why because Peril buff is 3++ then sanctuary +1 null zone -2 and MoT +1 (only because it doesn´t make my save better than 3++

rawne2510 wrote:
Think of it like this. My rubric sorcerer cast the spell sanctuary. I cast but peril. Roll a six and pass my leadership test. My sorcerer now has a 2++ because I get 3++ for the inv buff of peril and +1 from sanctuary. MoT can´t be applied at this point because it would take me to 1++.

Except that's not how it works. The caps on stats like saves and LD does doesn't turn off abilities and special rules. You apply all modifiers and then check for the hard cap, not before. It's the same reason why if a LD 9 model with LD10 from two sources of +1 LD gets a -2LD debuff he has LD 9 and not LD 8.ITs the same with saves. You apply all the modifiers and then cap it so the MoT is still in effect.

But that's the thing CrownAxe, it checks all at once. When it checks, it looks to see if including the MoT will give the model a better than 3+ Inv save. It sees that it would give a better than 3+ Inv save and isn't applied, but the save is still better than 3+ anyways. The power isn't imposing a maximum possible save, it's imposing a maximum save where it can be applied.

 Yarium wrote:
But that's the thing CrownAxe, it checks all at once. When it checks, it looks to see if including the MoT will give the model a better than 3+ Inv save. It sees that it would give a better than 3+ Inv save and isn't applied, but the save is still better than 3+ anyways. The power isn't imposing a maximum possible save, it's imposing a maximum save where it can be applied.

What you described sounds like the reason why it does get capped at 3++ to me

Hey, it doesn't save that the model's save is capped at 3+ Inv, it says that MoT can't bring a model's save past 3+ Inv. I just don't see anywhere in the wording that says the model's save can't be improved past 3+ Inv, just that the Mark of Tzeentch can't be any part of anything that does it.

 Yarium wrote:
Hey, it doesn't save that the model's save is capped at 3+ Inv, it says that MoT can't bring a model's save past 3+ Inv. I just don't see anywhere in the wording that says the model's save can't be improved past 3+ Inv, just that the Mark of Tzeentch can't be any part of anything that does it.

This is where I think people get confused. They think that MoT somehow caps the "models" possible save. It doesn't. It only caps its own ability to improve the save past 3++.
There is nothing in the MoT rule that prevents other invul bonuses from applying.

 Galef wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Hey, it doesn't save that the model's save is capped at 3+ Inv, it says that MoT can't bring a model's save past 3+ Inv. I just don't see anywhere in the wording that says the model's save can't be improved past 3+ Inv, just that the Mark of Tzeentch can't be any part of anything that does it.

This is where I think people get confused. They think that MoT somehow caps the "models" possible save. It doesn't. It only caps its own ability to improve the save past 3++.
There is nothing in the MoT rule that prevents other invul bonuses from applying.

I agree. If the model gets to 3++ without MoT, then MoT doesn't add. If the model gets to 2++ without MoT, it doesn't add and the model has a 2++ from the other modifiers.