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 techsoldaten wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because Eldar have been the consistently best codex in 40K forever.

So you've only been playing since Eldar 6th and until the new SM psychic powers, is that correct ?

I've been playing them since 2nd. And during the time period from 2nd-7th, Eldar are consistently the best list in the game. They were down in 3rd until they got a codex and in 5th (sorta, I still saw a LOT of arrogant space puppy players massacred en masse by scatterlasers). That's it.

BULL. To begin with they got a codex in 4th ed and it was bad, it wasn't until 6th ed that they got this strong. But yeah, they were consistently the best list between 2nd and 7th... if you ignore 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.

I remember the perspective that Eldar were bad in everything between 2nd and 5th, and the reality that skilled players knew what to do with them.

What makes Eldar lists seem so much better in the current edition is the fact it requires a lot less thinking to make them work. Just take psykers with Divination, add units with outrageous numbers of shots, and blow things away.

That's simply not mathematically true. 2nd ed Eldar actually took very little skill except against specific opponents (CSM + Tyranids). The IoM armies other than maybe space wolves had basically zero chance. They were also fantastic in 3.5, and dominant in 4th. Their ONLY down periods are 3rd pre-codex and 5th-6th pre-codex. And let's be real here.They have never been as down as DA were for over a decade, or the Orks/BA are now.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because Eldar have been the consistently best codex in 40K forever.

So you've only been playing since Eldar 6th and until the new SM psychic powers, is that correct ?

I've been playing them since 2nd. And during the time period from 2nd-7th, Eldar are consistently the best list in the game. They were down in 3rd until they got a codex and in 5th (sorta, I still saw a LOT of arrogant space puppy players massacred en masse by scatterlasers). That's it.

BULL. To begin with they got a codex in 4th ed and it was bad, it wasn't until 6th ed that they got this strong. But yeah, they were consistently the best list between 2nd and 7th... if you ignore 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.

I remember the perspective that Eldar were bad in everything between 2nd and 5th, and the reality that skilled players knew what to do with them.

What makes Eldar lists seem so much better in the current edition is the fact it requires a lot less thinking to make them work. Just take psykers with Divination, add units with outrageous numbers of shots, and blow things away.

This. Between 2nd and 5th Eldar were like their dark cousins but with psykers and a bit more forgiving. That's it. You needed a plan and it needed to go as expected or else you were going down like a ten dollar hooker.

There's a reason for competitive lists focusing only on farseers and the three previously mentioned units with some odd addition. Nothing else is THAT good. It's solid, few things in the codex are bad, but it's nowhere close to make it to the top tables consistently.

You are both going heavy revisionist history here. I'm not fooled, as I was there for this crap. 2nd ed Eldar was actually the number one culprit for turn 1 tablings, followed by CSM. Sorry if you guys didn't figure out the power combos in your own codex back then.

Meanwhile, I hope the cult eats your face and we get more turn one charges. I mean, BA can't do it, but I'll enjoy all the tears of shooty lists. It's clear we're never getting balance, so I'll settle for spite.

Martel732 wrote:
You are both going against my heavy revisionist history here. Sorry if I didn't figure out the power combos in my own codex back then.

There fixed it for you.

Also, BA unable of turn 1 charges? Guess who needs to figure out the power combos he can make with the right tools.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are both going against my heavy revisionist history here. Sorry if I didn't figure out the power combos in my own codex back then.

There fixed it for you.

Also, DA unable of turn 1 charges? Guess who needs to figure out the power combos he can make with the right tools.

You can disagree all you like, but I suspect I know with whom the majority of other posters will agree with. I've been ganged up on by far worse than the two of you.

BA, not DA.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because Eldar have been the consistently best codex in 40K forever.

So you've only been playing since Eldar 6th and until the new SM psychic powers, is that correct ?

I've been playing them since 2nd. And during the time period from 2nd-7th, Eldar are consistently the best list in the game. They were down in 3rd until they got a codex and in 5th (sorta, I still saw a LOT of arrogant space puppy players massacred en masse by scatterlasers). That's it.

BULL. To begin with they got a codex in 4th ed and it was bad, it wasn't until 6th ed that they got this strong. But yeah, they were consistently the best list between 2nd and 7th... if you ignore 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.

And 6th until the Eldar Codex, and 7th after the Space Marine Crazy Psy Powers.

Martel732 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are both going against my heavy revisionist history here. Sorry if I didn't figure out the power combos in my own codex back then.

There fixed it for you.

Also, DA unable of turn 1 charges? Guess who needs to figure out the power combos he can make with the right tools.

You can disagree all you like, but I suspect I know with whom the majority of other posters will agree with. I've been ganged up on by far worse than the two of you.

BA, not DA.

Just out of curiosity, will it be like Nixon's majority?

Oh cry me a river. Someone help this BA player, he's been brutalized by two people disagreeing with him!!

Hardly. You two are a bit of a joke, really. Eldar players looking for sympathy. Oh noes! I might lose a game if the big bad Tyranids can sneak up and assault me!

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. You two are a bit of a joke, really. Eldar players looking for sympathy. Oh noes! I might lose a game if the big bad Tyranids can sneak up and assault me!

Oh noes, I may lose a game because I don't play the over-powered (this last 2 editions) flavor of power armor! LOVE ME AND SCORN THEM!!

I'm having a hell of a time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Well, scorpions aren't bad. Not uber but they get the job done for me from time to time.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because Eldar have been the consistently best codex in 40K forever.

So you've only been playing since Eldar 6th and until the new SM psychic powers, is that correct ?

I've been playing them since 2nd. And during the time period from 2nd-7th, Eldar are consistently the best list in the game. They were down in 3rd until they got a codex and in 5th (sorta, I still saw a LOT of arrogant space puppy players massacred en masse by scatterlasers). That's it.

BULL. To begin with they got a codex in 4th ed and it was bad, it wasn't until 6th ed that they got this strong. But yeah, they were consistently the best list between 2nd and 7th... if you ignore 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.

wait what?

4E Eldar were astoundingly strong. Flying circus, invinciskimmers, untargetable harlequins, etc. Before that was invinciskimmers and Starcannon spam and Alaitoc disruption tables. Eldar were absolutely top tier in 3E and especially 4E. 2E they were so broken they were a big part of what prompted the 3E reboot (though some of that was due to the insanity of 2E psychics). 5E was the *only* edition where Eldar were not at the top 1-3 of the power pile, mainly because it was the only edition they didnt get a codex update in.


Eldar have absolutely been a top tier army throughout the vast majority of the games lifespan

Wow this is crazy. People are so stubborn to change their tactics with their powerlists.

It has always been a viable tactic to feed trash units to speedbump cc squads so you can shoot them later.

 techsoldaten wrote:


I remember the perspective that Eldar were bad in everything between 2nd and 5th, and the reality that skilled players knew what to do with them.

What makes Eldar lists seem so much better in the current edition is the fact it requires a lot less thinking to make them work. Just take psykers with Divination, add units with outrageous numbers of shots, and blow things away.

Don't get me wrong, they weren't "bad" like Dark Eldar is "bad", but they weren't top tier for a very long period of time.

The vast majority of Eldar history was: optimize 100%, play super smart and you may have a chance against the top lists when they're either unlucky or played by less skilled players.

I agree though, Eldar often had a shot, which is more than some obscure codexes ever had.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because Eldar have been the consistently best codex in 40K forever.

So you've only been playing since Eldar 6th and until the new SM psychic powers, is that correct ?

I've been playing them since 2nd. And during the time period from 2nd-7th, Eldar are consistently the best list in the game. They were down in 3rd until they got a codex and in 5th (sorta, I still saw a LOT of arrogant space puppy players massacred en masse by scatterlasers). That's it.

BULL. To begin with they got a codex in 4th ed and it was bad, it wasn't until 6th ed that they got this strong. But yeah, they were consistently the best list between 2nd and 7th... if you ignore 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.

wait what?

4E Eldar were astoundingly strong. Flying circus, invinciskimmers, untargetable harlequins, etc. Before that was invinciskimmers and Starcannon spam and Alaitoc disruption tables. Eldar were absolutely top tier in 3E and especially 4E. 2E they were so broken they were a big part of what prompted the 3E reboot (though some of that was due to the insanity of 2E psychics). 5E was the *only* edition where Eldar were not at the top 1-3 of the power pile, mainly because it was the only edition they didnt get a codex update in.


Eldar have absolutely been a top tier army throughout the vast majority of the games lifespan

Shuriken cannons laid waste in 2nd ed due to their -3 armor save modifier and high rate of fire. Even terminators crumbled like chumps before them. CSM terminators just had a hope of killing them first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


I remember the perspective that Eldar were bad in everything between 2nd and 5th, and the reality that skilled players knew what to do with them.

What makes Eldar lists seem so much better in the current edition is the fact it requires a lot less thinking to make them work. Just take psykers with Divination, add units with outrageous numbers of shots, and blow things away.

Don't get me wrong, they weren't "bad" like Dark Eldar is "bad", but they weren't top tier for a very long period of time.

The vast majority of Eldar history was: optimize 100%, play super smart and you may have a chance against the top lists when they're either unlucky or played by less skilled players.

I agree though, Eldar often had a shot, which is more than some obscure codexes ever had.

Again, that's blatantly untrue. So you're clearly not able to use your own codex or are intentionally falsifying how the past codices worked.

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Oh noes, I have to pick some powers out of Telepathy instead of Divination to buff my units! GIVE ME BACK MY GUNLINE!

...

Sorry if that's too obnoxious. Eldar have the tools to buff melee units to the point where they can withstand a first turn charge. Invisible Seer Council wrecks face.

Meanwhile, BA have no telepathy. But at least getting turn 1 assault wrecked is a different experience than 30 scatterlasers to the face.

 Vaktathi wrote:

4E Eldar were astoundingly strong. Flying circus, invinciskimmers, untargetable harlequins, etc. Before that was invinciskimmers and Starcannon spam and Alaitoc disruption tables. Eldar were absolutely top tier in 3E and especially 4E. 2E they were so broken they were a big part of what prompted the 3E reboot (though some of that was due to the insanity of 2E psychics). 5E was the *only* edition where Eldar were not at the top 1-3 of the power pile, mainly because it was the only edition they didnt get a codex update in.


Eldar have absolutely been a top tier army throughout the vast majority of the games lifespan

It all depends on what you call top tier.
In my opinion, if your army doesn't get more than 25% of tournament victories, it's not really top tier.

I'll let someone else cover 2nd and 3rd ed.


In 4th Edition, the top Eldar build was Falcons with Harlequins, which were very targetable, but unfortunately for you, they would only get out of the Falcon to charge you, because that was still a thing, and Falcons with holofields were hard to crack.
They were playable, they had a shot, but they were VERY FAR from being the best 4th Ed army, and I'm quite sure they weren't top 3.
In 5th Edition, the top Eldar Build was more around Wave Serpents with Fire Dragons, which was weaker than 4th Ed and definitely not top 3.

2nd Edition ?
3rd Edition ?
4th Edition was Leafblower ?
5th Edition was dominated by GK, Eldar wasn't top 3
6th Edition prior to Eldar Codex - no idea, Eldar wasn't top 3
6th Edition after Eldar Codex - Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons, Space Marines
7th Edition before SM powers - Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Space Marines, Daemons
7th Edition after SM powers - Space Marines, ... no idea this is still too fresh.

"but they were VERY FAR from being the best 4th Ed army"

No, not really. Who was better?

 techsoldaten wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Oh noes, I have to pick some powers out of Telepathy instead of Divination to buff my units! GIVE ME BACK MY GUNLINE!

...

Sorry if that's too obnoxious. Eldar have the tools to buff melee units to the point where they can withstand a first turn charge. Invisible Seer Council wrecks face.

Yes, you go try that combo of yours and then come back telling me how your fleshbane pa nothing attacks totally wrecked face on those 2+ rerollable 3+ fnp guys who were invisible, without even losing a single member to 40+ S10AP2 attacks.

Eldar, unfortunately, do not have "reroll to get the power you like" or "pass powers on a 2+ because Spehs mehreeens"

 techsoldaten wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Oh noes, I have to pick some powers out of Telepathy instead of Divination to buff my units! GIVE ME BACK MY GUNLINE!

...

Sorry if that's too obnoxious. Eldar have the tools to buff melee units to the point where they can withstand a first turn charge. Invisible Seer Council wrecks face.

Ehm... not really. Sure you're sixes to hit but you're efectively dishing 10 attacks with no AP whatsoever. Even factoring fleshbane in you're killing a MEQ or two (1.57) with two farseers and three warlocks. Killing a marine per turn is... underwhelming for a 380pts unit.

Now invis isn't good enough for Eldar. Hilarious!

 Dakka Wolf wrote:




Uh huh.
If you've been Guarding since 2nd edition you must think I've never read the codex.
1. 60 point squads of Conscripts are hardly your cheapest line of meat shields.
Lets try 130 points for an Infantry Platoon that gives you two 50 point units of infantry and a 30 point Command Squad.
Since each Alpha Strike works diffrrently they need different strategies.

Genestealers are the hard one, I've never played with or against the Cult, so I have no idea what their Alpha Strike entails or how many units they can bring to the party.

Min platoon is 25 bodies, not much of a meat shield. Anyways, I'm still a blob player so my platoons are usually part of my 'shooty'. Could still use them as meatshields tho...

And Genestealer Cult is the one that I expect to cause the most problems. With a possible ability to Infiltrate 3" away and still assault on the first turn, well, that's fairly nasty against an IG army. means I have to line up no more than 3" from the back edge or sides, meatshield close enough (6 or so inches) that they cannot infiltrate between units, and so on.
As a GSC player, I'll take the disorganized charge and multi-assault so as to tie up as much as I can, hoping that one of your fleshy units doesn't run that first turn (cause we both know the IG are going to lose the combat) so that I'm safe from shooting during your turn. Sure, your vehicles can shoot at my stuff that didn't get to Infiltrate in close (which will be MY shooty and tanks), assuming that it survives... But really won't know for sure until I hit the table with it, and even then it's just anecdotal. Heh, may have to look at building an IG style Cult list...

Anyways, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Martel732 wrote:
Now invis isn't good enough for Eldar. Hilarious!

At which point I said invisibility was bad? I said that invisible council has an underwhelming output. So now you're revisioning comments too? Could you please act like a bigger dumkopf?

Martel, I know you are BA player and think everything outside your codex is better but look at this objectively: it's a 380pts unit. In CQC gets you 14 points killed per round.

Yeah, totally a landmower that will crack down any specialized meelee unit!

Just look at this match-up:

10 regular terminators versus the seer conclave. 350pts vs 380pts

Seer conclave makes 10 attacks. Hits 5.6666 times (4 attacks hit on 3s, 6 on 4s). And wounds 4.72 times. It causes a whooping... 0.78 terminators. But let's be generous and say they killed a termie! 10% wiped out in a turn.
9 terminators make 18 attacks. Hit 3 times. Wound 2.5 times. It causes 1.25 dead warlocks/farseers, whichever fool gets in. 20% wiped out in a turn.

fething regular terminators do better than the conclave all while being cheaper.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Oh noes, I have to pick some powers out of Telepathy instead of Divination to buff my units! GIVE ME BACK MY GUNLINE!

...

Sorry if that's too obnoxious. Eldar have the tools to buff melee units to the point where they can withstand a first turn charge. Invisible Seer Council wrecks face.

Ehm... not really. Sure you're sixes to hit but you're efectively dishing 10 attacks with no AP whatsoever. Even factoring fleshbane in you're killing a MEQ or two (1.57) with two farseers and three warlocks. Killing a marine per turn is... underwhelming for a 380pts unit.

I play CSMs. Welcome to the world of the unit tax, where you include sub-optimal units to keep the good ones alive.

I must not play against Eldar enough, I thought Seer Councils were more capable. Perhaps Howling Banshees could fill some roll that keeps me from slaying your Jetbikes, Farseer and Wraithknights on the first turn?

Martel732 wrote:
Now invis isn't good enough for Eldar. Hilarious!

Invisibility depends on the target.

Invisibility on an early 7th Ed Iyanden BeastStar is incredibly powerful.
Invisibility on a Centurion Bomb is incredibly powerful.
Invisibility on 3 jetbikes is not very powerful.

Basically, it's a force multiplier that gains value as the target is more expensive and more powerful.

Thus, a top tier unit like the Grav Centurion, when built into a deathstar, is a good bet.
So is a Titan, if you play with people who think invisibility should be cast on a Titan...
So is a 1000 point IoM deathstar that can do serious damage.

It's not that great on a 500-ish Eldar jetbike deathstar that can do nothing good except casting self buffs - which it will if it's going for invisibility (and then logically, Fortune, if they're going to tank anything).

So you're paying 500 points for a unit that may be able to survive a few rounds of combat with the IoM deathstar, but you don't stand a chance of dealing them any damage, even if they lose Invisibility, and you're at risk of one turn obliteration if you do fail it.
You can't lock it in combat, because it has ways to get out of there, and you can't get out of combat, because taking mr. superwings would be far too expensive.
All the while, your conga line of 500 points of jetbikes dudes can hardly block access to much of the map, and once ignored by your opponent becomes nearly useless, while your other units drop like flies.

Now even if you manage to win that match, your list is so terrible it's going to get destroyed by every other good list out there, from crons to daemons.

I'm sorry, what was your point again ?

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Now invis isn't good enough for Eldar. Hilarious!

At which point I said invisibility was bad? I said that invisible council has an underwhelming output. So now you're revisioning comments too? Could you please act like a bigger dumkopf?

Martel, I know you are BA player and think everything outside your codex is better but look at this objectively: it's a 380pts unit. In CQC gets you 14 points killed per round.

Yeah, totally a landmower that will crack down any specialized meelee unit!

Just look at this match-up:

10 regular terminators versus the seer conclave. 350pts vs 380pts

Seer conclave makes 10 attacks. Hits 5.6666 times (4 attacks hit on 3s, 6 on 4s). And wounds 4.72 times. It causes a whooping... 0.78 terminators. But let's be generous and say they killed a termie! 10% wiped out in a turn.
9 terminators make 18 attacks. Hit 3 times. Wound 2.5 times. It causes 1.25 dead warlocks/farseers, whichever fool gets in. 20% wiped out in a turn.

fething regular terminators do better than the conclave all while being cheaper.

My terminators are 40/model.

Martel732 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Now invis isn't good enough for Eldar. Hilarious!

At which point I said invisibility was bad? I said that invisible council has an underwhelming output. So now you're revisioning comments too? Could you please act like a bigger dumkopf?

Martel, I know you are BA player and think everything outside your codex is better but look at this objectively: it's a 380pts unit. In CQC gets you 14 points killed per round.

Yeah, totally a landmower that will crack down any specialized meelee unit!

Just look at this match-up:

10 regular terminators versus the seer conclave. 350pts vs 380pts

Seer conclave makes 10 attacks. Hits 5.6666 times (4 attacks hit on 3s, 6 on 4s). And wounds 4.72 times. It causes a whooping... 0.78 terminators. But let's be generous and say they killed a termie! 10% wiped out in a turn.
9 terminators make 18 attacks. Hit 3 times. Wound 2.5 times. It causes 1.25 dead warlocks/farseers, whichever fool gets in. 20% wiped out in a turn.

fething regular terminators do better than the conclave all while being cheaper.

My terminators are 40/model.

And guess fething what, they'd do about as well against that unit, just for 20pts more.

I'm conflicted about first turn charges. On one hand assault armies (and assault in general) have been crapped on for a long time now. On the other hand one of my two armies is Imperial Guard, who get absolutely decimated if anything other than Gretchin assault us. All we'd get is maybe one round of overwatch fire (if I'm going second) and no-one fears Guard overwatch

 techsoldaten wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Let's also remember Eldar have plenty of melee units that could be in their lists. It's only a matter of time before the competitive lists move away from pure gunlines to something more balanced that still kicks everyone in the teeth.

Urgh... yes Eldar have plenty of melee units all of which are so terrible at their job... if we played those, we wouldn't even have a chance against SMC.

But the T1 charge people are complaining about is probably the competitive one, the one that was entirely removed from ITC, electro displacement-based superfriends superfist don't even try to dodge this combo.

Oh noes, I have to pick some powers out of Telepathy instead of Divination to buff my units! GIVE ME BACK MY GUNLINE!

...

Sorry if that's too obnoxious. Eldar have the tools to buff melee units to the point where they can withstand a first turn charge. Invisible Seer Council wrecks face.

Ehm... not really. Sure you're sixes to hit but you're efectively dishing 10 attacks with no AP whatsoever. Even factoring fleshbane in you're killing a MEQ or two (1.57) with two farseers and three warlocks. Killing a marine per turn is... underwhelming for a 380pts unit.

I play CSMs. Welcome to the world of the unit tax, where you include sub-optimal units to keep the good ones alive.

I must not play against Eldar enough, I thought Seer Councils were more capable. Perhaps Howling Banshees could fill some roll that keeps me from slaying your Jetbikes, Farseer and Wraithknights on the first turn?

Farseers and warlock have each 2 attack: 1 base and another for two CCW. No AP whatsoever. Using them in meelee is a bad idea. Big time. Almost any dedicated meelee unit will beat them systematically. Mutilators would handily beat them, should they be taken in an equivalently costed unit: with LC they average a wound per turn versus the 0.78 of eldar and they'd be seven versus 5 eldar models, so 14 wounds versus 9. I seriously don't know where this invisibility council beating face but it couldn't be farther from the truth.

I play Emperors Children, I know full well the tale of taxes. I know the story well and that by and large the eldar are pathetic when it comes to infantry survivability. Banshees? They die to shooting. T3 and a 4+ save in the open is a good way to get killed in this edition. They only thing that would be viable for defense would be scorpions (which I run aniway) because they can have very solid cover saves. Wraithguards with axe+shield mayhaps but they are expensive like lawyers so they do poor for screening.

 andysonic1 wrote:
There are a ton of fortifications, many of which allow you to stick units inside to shoot out of while coming with several upgrades to help the shooting and defend against assault units. No one ever takes them from what I've seen, but with the onset of Turn One charges they might start looking at them.

Escape Tunnel? Escape Hatch? one of those lets you redeploy 18 in away from the fortification. Have already looked into it.