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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 00:50:56
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Read this today while looking up wolf rules. I haven't found anything here referencing it either way. Valid argument or horsegak?
OP: https://www.facebook.com/wolvesforthewolfgod/posts/801827703244243
"This is something I feel a lot of the Space Wolf community hasn't picked up on but I'm pretty sure RAW it works:
So Taking the Voidclaws formation:- it consists of a single squad of wolf guard terminators with two restrictions:
1. Being all models must be armed with dual wolf claws and
2. There must be at least 5 models in the unit
So in order to ensure you can take advantage of the special rules granted by this formation, those restrictions must be in place; easy enough.
By fulfilling this restriction you leave two possible "upgrades" left for the unit to take without breaking this restriction.
1. Being a Cyclone missile launcher (Defo take it if the point are there) and
2. A dedicated transport of either a land raider variant or storm wolf.
As we know from p.82 of the Warhammer 40k rulebook:
"Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These dedicated transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were brought for"
In this instance the unit the dedicated transport was purchased for was an Elite unit in a Formation detachment.
Now taking a look at the Voidclaws "spearhead strike" rule this states:
"All units from this Formation begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deepstrike in their controlling players first turn"
Note: All units
"But a land raider or storm wolf doesn't have the deepstrike rule" I hear you cry. Now here's the good bit:
P.162 end of the first paragraph of "Deep Strike" USR:
"Some units must arrive by deepstrike. They always begin the game in reserve and always arrive by deepstrike"
So basically as the dedicated transport counts as the same role as the unit it was brought for and therefore counts as part of the formation. As such the formations spearhead strike rules apply stating that all units as part of the formation "Must" Deepstrike and as per BRB it is permissible for a unit to deepstrike as long as it has a rule stating it 'must' arrive by deepstrike.
The bonus is both the other rules from the Void Claws formation both work for the transport too:
Coordinated Assault: As long as at least one model from this Formation is still alive and on the table, the controlling player can reroll any Reserve Rolls
And
If Needs Must: when units from this formation arrive by Deepstrike, you can reroll the scatter if you wish.
So there we have it: how to get a first turn deepstrike for a land raider / stormwolf"
There are other formations that confer deep strike upon non-deepstriking units as well. The blackshield void revers rule allows half of your detachment to arrive via deepstrike regardless of unit type.
Thoughts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 05:08:42
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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This appears legitimate, much like how Drop Pods do not have the Deep Strike special rule and instead rely on Drop Pod Assault to require them to begin the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike.
Draft FAQ aside, Dark Angels are able to do this with the Deathwing Redemption Force and Deathwing Strike Force. Their draft FAQ has however errata'd away the ability to do so. I would strongly suggest this to imply Void Claws are not intended to be able to do so either.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 05:28:31
Subject: Re:Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Notice that you quoted the Deep Strike USR as saying that "some units must arrive by deep strike". However, for the Deep Strike USR to apply to a model, that model must have the Deep Strike USR. Just because a land raider is taken as a dedicated transport for a model with DS doesn't mean it gets the DS USR. Just because it is an Elite choice does not mean it gains the DS USR. Just because it is in a formation that forces DS does not mean it gains DS; the formation simply says that all units must begin in reserves (note they don't say deep strike reserves) and that they "must arrive by deep strike". Nowhere is it stated that the unit receives the Deep Strike USR.
Now, look at the first line of the Deep Strike USR. In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Tell me, does the Land Raider gain the DS USR? Is it stated anywhere that the Land Raider gains the USR, or is the only thing you're quoting that bit about "must arrive by deep strike"? Saying "must arrive by DS" and "gains the DS special rule" are two completely different things. If a unit doesn't have the DS USR it can't deep strike.
(No, drop pods do not have the DS special rule, but they do have the Drop Pod Assault rule that lets them start specifically in Deep Strike Reserve, not just Reserve)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 05:53:00
Subject: Re:Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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kingbobbito wrote:(No, drop pods do not have the DS special rule, but they do have the Drop Pod Assault rule that lets them start specifically in Deep Strike Reserve, not just Reserve)
This distinction is meaningless. Why? Let's look at what what 'Deep Strike Reserve' means:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)"
Deep Strike Reserve simply means arriving by Deep Strike, having been placed in Reserve. Therefore a Land Raider Dedicated Transport in a Void Claws Formation qualifies just as much as a Drop Pod with Drop Pod Assault.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 07:20:53
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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You said it yourself, arriving by Deep Strike is synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve, so saying it is in Deep Strike Reserve means "it will be arriving by deep strike", permission to arrive by deep strike.
different than
Units are placed in reserves and must arrive by deep strike. "Must arrive by deep strike" isn't a permission to deep strike, it's a requirement. You can't "tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike" as you don't have permission for it to do so.
Regardless, as you also said, it is the RAI that you can't deep strike a land raider, the basis being the Dark Angels FAQ. No point arguing this further.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 08:29:07
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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kingbobbito wrote:You said it yourself, arriving by Deep Strike is synonymous with Deep Strike Reserve, so saying it is in Deep Strike Reserve means "it will be arriving by deep strike", permission to arrive by deep strike.
different than
Units are placed in reserves and must arrive by deep strike. "Must arrive by deep strike" isn't a permission to deep strike, it's a requirement. You can't "tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike" as you don't have permission for it to do so.
Again you are making a meaningless distinction. I can absolutely tell my opponent a unit will be arriving by Deep Strike if simply because it must.
Regardless, as you also said, it is the RAI that you can't deep strike a land raider, the basis being the Dark Angels FAQ. No point arguing this further.
Indeed. We are agreed on the RAI and you have been corrected on applying the RAW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 08:29:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 09:48:29
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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"It must" is a restriction, not a permission. You're looking for "It can".
Pretending a restriction is a permission is nonsense.
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DFTT |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 13:25:16
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The wording on drop pod assault is also "must". "Drop pods and units embarked upon them must be held in deepstrike reserves...."
By that logic drop pods are unplayable as they could never be deployed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 13:34:33
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Quoting a completely unrelated rule does not change anything. No permission is given. Pretending you have it to , quite obviously , attempt to break the rules is nonsensical.
Having read one version of the drop pod assault rule (I'm sure it's written slightly differently in different sources) it does appear to blend restrictions and permissions in an unclear manner, but not in a way that prevents deployment.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 13:52:37
DFTT |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 13:36:04
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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I'm going to say no. Drop Pods don't matter in this case, we all know exactly how Land Raiders work and that doesn't include Deep Strike, this formation does not give Land Raiders Deep Strike so you can't take LR's as dedicated transports.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 13:42:57
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Don't blood angels have DSing LRs? or did the new codex remove that? Biggest problem my buddy had with it is the LR's footprint. Lots of risk of deep strike mishaps. Funny enough he lost one by landing on my kabalite squad. If you can explain how dropping a tank on dudes kills the tank but not the dudes I'm all ears. Was a good laugh though.
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taskforce Harbinger 3000pts Ishvale Ash Rats Violet Fems+ 2000ptsHouse Cadmus Knights and Defenders 3500
Deathwatch 6500 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 13:53:53
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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The differential is the with void claws it says that unit must start in DS reserve. The dedicated transport isn´t part of the unit. They aren´t counted as 1 unit.
With the Drop pod. The drop pod assualt rule specifies that the transport must be put into DS reserves with the unit it contains.
Each rule is stating which specific unit must go into DS reserve.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 14:32:53
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Captyn_Bob wrote:Quoting a completely unrelated rule does not change anything. No permission is given. Pretending you have it to , quite obviously , attempt to break the rules is nonsensical.
I am merely drawing upon the similarity between the two rules phrasing. One of which you claim gives permission, one you claim is nonsensical and cheating.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep
Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up)
automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for
normally.
Spearhead Strike: All units from this Formation begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves, and must
arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 21:30:59
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Captyn_Bob wrote:"It must" is a restriction, not a permission. You're looking for "It can".
Pretending a restriction is a permission is nonsense.
It's a requirement. If a rule requires you to do something you must do it. Given the parallel to Drop Pods, from a RAW perspective we should similarly assume three requirement overrides the usual need to have the Deep Strike special rule.
Imateria wrote:I'm going to say no. Drop Pods don't matter in this case, we all know exactly how Land Raiders work and that doesn't include Deep Strike, this formation does not give Land Raiders Deep Strike so you can't take LR's as dedicated transports.
Forgeworld offer a Thunderhawk Transporter which can carry a Land Raider. I believe Assault Squads deploy via Deep Strike from Thunderhawk Gunships, so it's not at all outside of the reason of possibility. Hell, even now in real life tanks can be deployed via parachute drop.
rawne2510 wrote:The differential is the with void claws it says that unit must start in DS reserve. The dedicated transport isn´t part of the unit. They aren´t counted as 1 unit.
With the Drop pod. The drop pod assualt rule specifies that the transport must be put into DS reserves with the unit it contains.
Each rule is stating which specific unit must go into DS reserve.
Dedicated Transports are part of the same Detachment as their parent unit. The Void Claws Formation rules apply to all units in the Formation, which would therefore cover any Dedicated Transport.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 21:56:32
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Lieutenant General
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Mr. Shine wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote:"It must" is a restriction, not a permission. You're looking for "It can".
Pretending a restriction is a permission is nonsense.
It's a requirement. If a rule requires you to do something you must do it. Given the parallel to Drop Pods, from a RAW perspective we should similarly assume three requirement overrides the usual need to have the Deep Strike special rule.
This FAQ would imply otherwise:
Q: If a unit ‘must declare a charge against unit if <insert prerequisite>’, is the rule ignored if they are unable to declare the charge (entered from Reserves, Infiltrated, no line of sight to the target, etc.)?
A: Yes.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:04:39
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You could make the argument that the squad itself cannot arrive from deep strike on the first turn because you roll reserves from the second turn.
The squad must arrive on turn 1 from deepstrike.
Reserves do not begin arriving until turn 2.
Nothing gives the squad permission to arrive on turn 1, as must is not permission.
Therefore by the FAQ: They cannot arrive on turn 1.
Nor can drop pods.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:15:57
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Lieutenant General
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Sorry, but you're wrong. These are two different situations. The FAQ says you're not required to charge even if it says you must if other rules prevent you from charging.
So where are these rules that specifically say that a Drop Pod can't come in on turn one?
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:23:30
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Ghaz wrote:This FAQ would imply otherwise:
Q: If a unit ‘must declare a charge against unit if <insert prerequisite>’, is the rule ignored if they are unable to declare the charge (entered from Reserves, Infiltrated, no line of sight to the target, etc.)?
A: Yes.
Then Drop Pods do not function. Yet we accept they do, so for consistency in applying RAW (flawed as it is) we must accept Dedicated Transports in a Void Claws Formation similarly Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:30:16
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Lieutenant General
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Again, two totally different situations. The FAQ covers a 'must' when there is a rule that says 'can not'. Please point out where it says a Drop Pod 'can not' arrive turn one.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:31:33
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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A Drop Pod would fail to function because it does not have deepstrike. It MUST be put into DSR per the drop pod assault rule but since it does not have deep strike it ignores this by the FAQ ruling.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 22:32:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:34:51
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MattKing wrote:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep
Strike Reserves. - Clear restriction
At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up)
automatically arrive from Reserve. - A permission. has to be used in reference to the previous restriction, so there is some blending of the rules, but it doesn't cause any major problems unless you're looking for them.
MattKing wrote:
Spearhead Strike: All units from this Formation begin the game in Deep Strike Reserves, and must
arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn.
Is this the actual rule? Its different to that posted by the OP "All units from this Formation begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deepstrike in their controlling players first turn"
Not sure if the wording makes a difference, but would like to confirm.
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DFTT |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:38:25
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I don't have my book with me. I just googled then copy/pasted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/09 22:43:21
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Ghaz wrote:Again, two totally different situations. The FAQ covers a 'must' when there is a rule that says 'can not'. Please point out where it says a Drop Pod 'can not' arrive turn one.
Not a matter of turn one; a matter of Deep Strike at all. Deep Strike rules state you must have the Deep Strike special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 19:48:44
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The exact wording:
Spearhead Strikes: All units from this Formation begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn.
I never looked at the rule this way before, but it certainly sounds like the transport (which would be a "unit from this formation") would begin the game in reserves and deep strike turn one. Since I like to play tournaments, I'd still need the TO's permission to play it this way, but it sounds RAW if not necessarily RAI.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 23:07:11
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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it would begin the game in reserves, and then be an illegal choice, as it doesn't have the deep strike rule, so cannot comply with the restriction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 23:21:15
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Same as a drop pod then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/13 03:23:32
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Regular Dakkanaut
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@ Mattking: actually it's a little different - only half your drop pods illegally arrive T1. All units in the Void Claw formation illegally arrive T1.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Going over it, I don't see the Deep Strike USR anywhere in the Drop Pod datasheet. Just the Drop Pod Assault rule shown above. The two rules are very similar.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/13 03:49:37
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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NightHowler wrote:@ Mattking: actually it's a little different - only half your drop pods illegally arrive T1. All units in the Void Claw formation illegally arrive T1.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Going over it, I don't see the Deep Strike USR anywhere in the Drop Pod datasheet. Just the Drop Pod Assault rule shown above. The two rules are very similar.
Given Drop Pods don't have the Deep Strike special rule it wouldn't matter which turn they arrive; if we don't take a requirement as implicit special permission they can never legally arrive via Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/13 06:23:29
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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And the drop pod rules being badly written allows you to break rules in completely different situations right?
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DFTT |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/13 07:59:31
Subject: Void claws and Dedicated transports
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Captyn_Bob wrote: And the drop pod rules being badly written allows you to break rules in completely different situations right?
Except it's not a completely different situation. The rules are functionally the same. Both lack the Deep Strike special rule but require models to begin the game in Reserve and to arrive via Deep Strike.
From the perspective of how the rules are written it would be simply inconsistent to find one acceptable and not the other.
If you want to argue how the rules were intended then sure, you could argue that the Dark Angels draft FAQ errata which rules this not possible supports that it should not be possible here, but then you could also argue that Assault Squads Deep Strike from Thunderhawk Gunships and there's a Thunderhawk Transporter which can carry a Land Raider:
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 07:59:43
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