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ok guys. im am looking for some help on either of my two lists below to uses on my friend who is a tau player.

list one is my KDK list. i started this hobby playing KDK and started trying out and expanding to CSM but im not having much luck with it. and feel like im getting more annoyed at it then i should.
anyway if anyone can help with either lists thanks

KDK list

so here is my list im looking to uses on my next match against my friends Imperial Guard tank army.

im running slaughtercult, gore pack and war engine formation


190 points HQ
Chaos Lord: Ichor Blood, Korlath axe, Plasma Pistol, Sigil of corruption, The Blood Forged Armour

457 points Elites
5 x Possessed: rhino(daemonic posesssion.) Icon of wrath
5 x Chaos Terminators: Combi-Flamers x 4, Reaper Autocannon, 5x Power FIsts

364 points Troops
8X Bloodletters: Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos, Upgade to Bloodreaper
8X Bloodletters: Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos, Upgade to Bloodreaper
7x Cultis: 7x Replace Auto pistol with Autogun
7x Cultis: 7x Replace Auto pistol with Autogun

612 points fast attack
3 x Biker: icon of wrath 2x Flamer
3 x Biker: icon of wrath 2x Flamer
5 x flesh hounds
5 x flesh hounds
5 x flesh hounds
1 x Heldrake: Baleflamer

330 Points heavy
1 x MaulerFiend: 2 x Lasher Tendrils
1 x Soul Grinder: Phlegm Bombardment, Warpsword


Ok and here is my CSM list. because i have moved from KDK to CSM i haven't played with the other marks yet and been treating this as Khorne, i have gotten told a lot to play other marks but i haven't really tried yet as i wanted to still get more of a feel on how CSM plays. which i didn't think would be such a big different to KDK then it is.

anyway here is the list i tried on my friend last week and failed badly. any and all improvements will be more then loved

CSM list

265 points HQ
1x Daemon Prince: Aura of dark glory, Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Dismensional key, Gift of Mutation, Ichor Blood, Khorne, Power Armour

442 points Elites
5 x Chaos Terminators: Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath, 5 x Chain fists, 4 x Combi bolter, Autocannon, Gift of Mutation
5 x Chosen: Autocannon, 4x Meltaguns

335 points Fast attack
1 x Heldrake: Baleflamer
5 x Raptors: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne, 2 x MeltaGuns

641 points Heavy Supports
1 x ForgeFiend: 2 x Hades Autocannon, Ectoplasma Cannon
5 x Havocs: 4 x Autocannon
2 x Oblterators: Mark of Khorne
2 x Oblterators: Mark of Khorne



As for my friends lists, he basicly plays fire warriors, crisus suits, riptide wing and ghost kill from the top of my head.

I'm a bit confused by the KDK list. What detachment is the helldrake in?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no troop in the CSM?

Only one relic is allowed per character.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aura of dark glory is wasted points on a Daemon Prince as they come with a 5+ invulnerable.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I'm a bit confused by the KDK list. What detachment is the helldrake in?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no troop in the CSM?

Only one relic is allowed per character.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aura of dark glory is wasted points on a Daemon Prince as they come with a 5+ invulnerable.

The heldrake isnt in the detachment. got it in there as i know its does well agianst tau

no there wasnt

who has more then one relic??

Both the hqs you list have two relics.

So these are unbound lists? Ok

Have you seen the traitor legion supplement?

going unbound isnt the nicest thing to do.. While you can make fun lists going with a CAD or even a formation from the new traitor legion book.

Your lord has 2 relics (Korlath, Blood forged armor) which is not allowed. The plasma pistol should be a lightning claw, you don't need ichor blood and your lord really should be on a juggernaut.


Your units are bloated with upgrades they dont need and others that are not optimal. Termies should have combi meltas to deal with suits and lose the autocannon. Bloodreapers, banner of blood and 1 instrument can be cut from the bloodletters. Daemonic possession is a MASSIVE waste of points.

Melta guns are really the only thing you should be taking on bikers. You will want to bump a flesh hound unit up to 10 to protect your lord. You don't need a warpsword on the soul grinder. You dont need an icon of wrath on the possessed. Keep the autopistols on the cultists.

Also your list is illegal. Both the Heldrake and Terminators are not attached to a formation or detachment. In order to make your list legal they would either have to be cut or your army would have to be a CAD.

If you choose to make your list legal by cutting the heldrake and termies, you have all the pieces of the blood host detachment. If you want to run a CAD in order to keep the heldrake and termies, get rid of the possessed, they are horribly points inefficient. I would suggest a bloodthirster and more maulerfiends. Maulerfiends are fast and will destroy any tau they touch.

The trick to beating tau is getting your whole army to strike at the same time in order to mitigate his overwatch as much as possible. Its a very tough fight for KDK that will be a lot more nuanced that just charging everything in as fast as you can. If you mess up and end up giving tau multiple turns of overwatch you are toast. I can't really speak to the CSM list but it looks similarly unoptimized and is also illegal. Its fine if you and your opponent want to play unbound, but from the sounds of it he is playing a bound list and you are not which is kind of a crappy thing to do.

Your lord has 2 relics (Korlath, Blood forged armor) which is not allowed. The plasma pistol should be a lightning claw, you don't need ichor blood and your lord really should be on a juggernaut.

ok sorry about that. was using battlescribe which didnt pick up on the error. all fix and went with korlarth. also got rip of Ichor blood. as for the juggernaut. only reason i dont play it is because i dont have the model for it. and my friend is a bit of a pain when it come to proxying stuff like that.

Your units are bloated with upgrades they dont need and others that are not optimal. Termies should have combi meltas to deal with suits and lose the autocannon. Bloodreapers, banner of blood and 1 instrument can be cut from the bloodletters. Daemonic possession is a MASSIVE waste of points.

will change the termies like you said, only reason i put autocannon on is because i have seen good results from the games i have played. as for the blood reapers the reason i have both is in case one fails the roll 1st.

how come daemonic possession is a waste.

Melta guns are really the only thing you should be taking on bikers. You will want to bump a flesh hound unit up to 10 to protect your lord. You don't need a warpsword on the soul grinder. You dont need an icon of wrath on the possessed. Keep the autopistols on the cultists.

bikers fixed. as for the hounds i dont have enough models at the moment to bump up to 10.. soul grinder fixed. reason for the icon of wrath on the possessed is if i have to take them i kinder want to make them uses full for 20 points. which is why i also put them in a rhyno.

Also your list is illegal. Both the Heldrake and Terminators are not attached to a formation or detachment. In order to make your list legal they would either have to be cut or your army would have to be a CAD.

If you choose to make your list legal by cutting the heldrake and termies, you have all the pieces of the blood host detachment. If you want to run a CAD in order to keep the heldrake and termies, get rid of the possessed, they are horribly points inefficient. I would suggest a bloodthirster and more maulerfiends. Maulerfiends are fast and will destroy any tau they touch.

can you please let me know where it says i cant add other units out side of the detachment? i have look in the rule book and i cant see it. i would like to know as i am pretty sure my friend does this as well

1) Daemonic possession isn't good because for one, you are paying 15 points for your rhino to be BS 3 and has the potential to automatically destroy your 30+ point models when you embark. (Almost the same cost as the rhino itself!)

1.5) The thing with instruments is that you can't pull a unit in that has already rolled for deep strike so having an instrument on each is pointless unless you are also deepstriking dogs or the soul grinder.

2) I would cut a unit of 5 flesh hounds and group them up to 10. You really need a meat shield for your lord. I highly suggest grabbing a jugger for your lord asap. The OOP metal ones are actually fairly cheap on ebay. Spending 50 points of upgrades on a unit that is t3 5+ save is just not worth it in my opinion. For 30 more points you can add another unit!

3) Possessed already have everything the icon of wrath is offering. They already have furious charge since they are daemons of khorne and they have fleet so you already are able to reroll charge distances. 20 points to add 1 to your combat total is a waste because they should already be winning combat anyway.

4) I have the digital copy so I cant give you a page #, but in the "Choosing your army" section, the rules for battle-forged Armies state "A player using the battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into detachments." The most simple and common detachment is called a CAD, which requires 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Other detachments, like the blood host detachment from KDK are comprised of formations like the slaughtercult, gorepack ect. When you add the heldrake and terminators to your bloodhost detachment list, they are not part of a formation and therefore cannot be legally added. Essentially your army has to be entirely comprised of formations and detachments. The only way to add terminators to a battle-forged blood host detachment army is through the brazen onslaught formation and the only way to add a heldrake is through the khorne's bloodstorm detachment.

Here is an example of a legal way to have terminators and heldrakes in your list

CAD
HQ
Lord

Troop
2 units bloodlettes
1 unit cultists

Elites
1 unit termies
1 unit possessed w/ rhino

Fast Attack
2 units flesh hounds
1 heldrake

Heavy Support
1 Soulgrinder
1 Maulerfiend

Hope that helps!

justin12270 wrote:


can you please let me know where it says i cant add other units out side of the detachment? i have look in the rule book and i cant see it. i would like to know as i am pretty sure my friend does this as well

In the main rule book it is under "Detachments" and in the KDK Codex it is under the Blood Host Detachment section just before the data sheets.

When you put something that is not part of the detachments into the Army, the whole army becomes "Unbound" and you lose all Detachment Bonuses (but keep formation bonuses). In this case, you lose the +1 Tithe per turn and the warlord trait re-roll.

So, in your Army, you are running the Blood Host Detachment which is made up of the Slaughtercult formation, Gorepack formation and another 2 auxiliaries which are the War Engines. This a legal single Detachment. And you can list them like that here when you want to have your list reviewed since the Blood Host Detachment does not use the HQ, troop, elite, heavy support types.

Now, to add in the Heldrake and/or the Chaos Terminators you either need to add a Combined Arms Detachment with another HQ and 2 Troops minimum which then you take a Heldrake as a Fast Attack choice and the Chaos Terminators as Elite choices or add the Khorne's Bloodstorm and/or the Brazen Onslaught formations to the Blood Host Detachment or create just a CAD like the prior poster showed.

Draco765 wrote:

justin12270 wrote:


can you please let me know where it says i cant add other units out side of the detachment? i have look in the rule book and i cant see it. i would like to know as i am pretty sure my friend does this as well

In the main rule book it is under "Detachments" and in the KDK Codex it is under the Blood Host Detachment section just before the data sheets.

When you put something that is not part of the detachments into the Army, the whole army becomes "Unbound" and you lose all Detachment Bonuses (but keep formation bonuses). In this case, you lose the +1 Tithe per turn and the warlord trait re-roll.

So, in your Army, you are running the Blood Host Detachment which is made up of the Slaughtercult formation, Gorepack formation and another 2 auxiliaries which are the War Engines. This a legal single Detachment. And you can list them like that here when you want to have your list reviewed since the Blood Host Detachment does not use the HQ, troop, elite, heavy support types.

Now, to add in the Heldrake and/or the Chaos Terminators you either need to add a Combined Arms Detachment with another HQ and 2 Troops minimum which then you take a Heldrake as a Fast Attack choice and the Chaos Terminators as Elite choices or add the Khorne's Bloodstorm and/or the Brazen Onslaught formations to the Blood Host Detachment or create just a CAD like the prior poster showed.

Ok no worrys. Thanks for all this help. Will fix things up soon. Sadly i wont be able to play them other 2 formations due to lack of models.
But one question is. I was lookibg on battlescribe and notice there are other formations that arnt in the codex. Such as fist of khorne, the Bloodied Horde and Hellforged Hunting Pack. Would i be able to add them in as put of the blood host detachment?

justin12270 wrote:

Ok no worrys. Thanks for all this help. Will fix things up soon. Sadly i wont be able to play them other 2 formations due to lack of models.
But one question is. I was lookibg on battlescribe and notice there are other formations that arnt in the codex. Such as fist of khorne, the Bloodied Horde and Hellforged Hunting Pack. Would i be able to add them in as put of the blood host detachment?

Those are from a supplement called Blood Oath. (reasonably hard to get a hold of as its only sold at warhammer world)
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/16/rumor-it-blood-oath-campaign-about-2/

They can't be "In" the blood host detachment, but you can have them alongside with no problem at all.
However they are all a Lot of points so probably not going to work alongside that detachment.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

justin12270 wrote:

Ok no worrys. Thanks for all this help. Will fix things up soon. Sadly i wont be able to play them other 2 formations due to lack of models.
But one question is. I was lookibg on battlescribe and notice there are other formations that arnt in the codex. Such as fist of khorne, the Bloodied Horde and Hellforged Hunting Pack. Would i be able to add them in as put of the blood host detachment?

Those are from a supplement called Blood Oath. (reasonably hard to get a hold of as its only sold at warhammer world)
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/16/rumor-it-blood-oath-campaign-about-2/

They can't be "In" the blood host detachment, but you can have them alongside with no problem at all.
However they are all a Lot of points so probably not going to work alongside that detachment.

ok thanks for that.

so here is the list i have made up now:

im running slaughtercult, gore pack and war engine formation


255 points HQ
Chaos Lord:, Korlath axe, Combi Melta, Sigil of corruption, Terminator armour. Juggernaut of Khorne

150 points Elites
5 x Possessed

200 points Troops
8X Bloodletters: Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos, Upgade to Bloodreaper
8X Bloodletters: Upgade to Bloodreaper

462 points fast attack
3 x Biker: 2x Melta
3 x Biker: 2x Melta
10 x flesh hounds
5 x flesh hounds

305 Points heavy
1 x MaulerFiend: 2 x Lasher Tendrils
1 x Soul Grinder: Phlegm Bombardment, Warpsword

Fist of khorne formation
Kharybdis assault claw and 20 x Berzerkers

on top of that i going to give fist of Khorne a go
will borrow my friends drop pod and see if it is worth getting a Kharybdis assault claw

On that list, you can't have terminator armour and the juggernaught sadly.

I'm very interested to see how the Fist of Khorne plays. Remember that the Kharybdis is quite a lot larger than a regular drop pod (more like 10" diameter, but i haven't managed to find the actual dimensions anywhere.) This matters as it can potentially take out multiple vehicles when it comes down.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
On that list, you can't have terminator armour and the juggernaught sadly.

I'm very interested to see how the Fist of Khorne plays. Remember that the Kharybdis is quite a lot larger than a regular drop pod (more like 10" diameter, but i haven't managed to find the actual dimensions anywhere.) This matters as it can potentially take out multiple vehicles when it comes down.

>.> dam i hate the chaos lord hahahaha ohh well. it puts me under the point limit now as before i was like 5 points over

Make sure you run your slaughtercult, gorepack, amd war engine as part of the blood host detachment for that sweet sweet extra blood tithe point.

Manfried wrote:
Make sure you run your slaughtercult, gorepack, amd war engine as part of the blood host detachment for that sweet sweet extra blood tithe point.

thats what i always aim for. that an in combo with the 2 bloodtithe ability for the price of one is the best way to go.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

justin12270 wrote:

Ok no worrys. Thanks for all this help. Will fix things up soon. Sadly i wont be able to play them other 2 formations due to lack of models.
But one question is. I was lookibg on battlescribe and notice there are other formations that arnt in the codex. Such as fist of khorne, the Bloodied Horde and Hellforged Hunting Pack. Would i be able to add them in as put of the blood host detachment?

Those are from a supplement called Blood Oath. (reasonably hard to get a hold of as its only sold at warhammer world)
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/16/rumor-it-blood-oath-campaign-about-2/

They can't be "In" the blood host detachment, but you can have them alongside with no problem at all.
However they are all a Lot of points so probably not going to work alongside that detachment.

Next week I am going to be trying out a Blood Host Detachment + Fist of Khorne Formation Detachment at my local monthly event. Got a Kharybdis Assault Claw for my big christmas present.

They are letting me use the PDF/screen caps etc for the rules so don't have to hunt down the books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
On that list, you can't have terminator armour and the juggernaught sadly.

I'm very interested to see how the Fist of Khorne plays. Remember that the Kharybdis is quite a lot larger than a regular drop pod (more like 10" diameter, but i haven't managed to find the actual dimensions anywhere.) This matters as it can potentially take out multiple vehicles when it comes down.

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/kharybdis4.jpg?576879

A Large Blast template fits just inside the medium set of "teeth" around the exit hatch. The larger legs are just inside 10" Diameter. With legs in landing mode, http://hobbyworld.com.ua/published/publicdata/HOBBYWOR/attachments/SC/products_pictures/assault-claw_enl.jpg it is just under 10" tall.

You have to hope for a scatter onto those vehicles, you can not attempt a Deep Strike onto them directly. But then you still have the 20 Berzerkers charging into combat first turn to clean up...

Cheers for the dimensions!

Draco765 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

justin12270 wrote:

Ok no worrys. Thanks for all this help. Will fix things up soon. Sadly i wont be able to play them other 2 formations due to lack of models.
But one question is. I was lookibg on battlescribe and notice there are other formations that arnt in the codex. Such as fist of khorne, the Bloodied Horde and Hellforged Hunting Pack. Would i be able to add them in as put of the blood host detachment?

Those are from a supplement called Blood Oath. (reasonably hard to get a hold of as its only sold at warhammer world)
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/16/rumor-it-blood-oath-campaign-about-2/

They can't be "In" the blood host detachment, but you can have them alongside with no problem at all.
However they are all a Lot of points so probably not going to work alongside that detachment.

Next week I am going to be trying out a Blood Host Detachment + Fist of Khorne Formation Detachment at my local monthly event. Got a Kharybdis Assault Claw for my big christmas present.

They are letting me use the PDF/screen caps etc for the rules so don't have to hunt down the books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
On that list, you can't have terminator armour and the juggernaught sadly.

I'm very interested to see how the Fist of Khorne plays. Remember that the Kharybdis is quite a lot larger than a regular drop pod (more like 10" diameter, but i haven't managed to find the actual dimensions anywhere.) This matters as it can potentially take out multiple vehicles when it comes down.

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/kharybdis4.jpg?576879

A Large Blast template fits just inside the medium set of "teeth" around the exit hatch. The larger legs are just inside 10" Diameter. With legs in landing mode, http://hobbyworld.com.ua/published/publicdata/HOBBYWOR/attachments/SC/products_pictures/assault-claw_enl.jpg it is just under 10" tall.

You have to hope for a scatter onto those vehicles, you can not attempt a Deep Strike onto them directly. But then you still have the 20 Berzerkers charging into combat first turn to clean up...

I would love to here how it goes. Any chance you could tell us how it plays out next week?

I started a new thread for that.