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Hi guys,

Alpharius' "Sire of the Alpha Legion" special rules says all your Alpha Legion dudes get preferred enemy (Everything) "while he is on the table and has been revealed".
Now i get this means you don't get it if he is hidden or in reserves. Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?

sm3g wrote:
Hi guys,

Alpharius' "Sire of the Alpha Legion" special rules says all your Alpha Legion dudes get preferred enemy (Everything) "while he is on the table and has been revealed".
Now i get this means you don't get it if he is hidden or in reserves. Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?

Well... the rule is pretty explicit, saying Alpharius must be revealed and placed on the table. Is he placed on the table when he is inside a transport? Nope. So... It is a bit weird that you can reveal him inside a transport (one of the bullet points for "One of Many"), but not place him on the table.

 Tamwulf wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Hi guys,

Alpharius' "Sire of the Alpha Legion" special rules says all your Alpha Legion dudes get preferred enemy (Everything) "while he is on the table and has been revealed".
Now i get this means you don't get it if he is hidden or in reserves. Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?

Well... the rule is pretty explicit, saying Alpharius must be revealed and placed on the table. Is he placed on the table when he is inside a transport? Nope. So... It is a bit weird that you can reveal him inside a transport (one of the bullet points for "One of Many"), but not place him on the table.

Yeah I figured as much, that's super duper annoying though, means starting him inside a transport is kind of useless unless he is also hidden.
EDIT: Although if you were to stick him with a squad of Lernaen, buy them a Spartan as a dedicated transport, take Mutable Tactic of infiltrate you can have a spartan 12" from your opponent before the start of your first turn (18" from infiltrate + 6" from scout since both of them are available for dedicated transports if the unit has them).

Yeah, and keep in mind he is a bulky model too. So he takes up two slots. If I see all your transports with 10 models and one of them with only 9... hmm....

Like I said, kind of a weird rule.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yeah, and keep in mind he is a bulky model too. So he takes up two slots. If I see all your transports with 10 models and one of them with only 9... hmm....

Like I said, kind of a weird rule.

Yeah look, I think his main benefit is the army wide preferred enemy so I plan to utilize that from turn 1. Specifically I love the Iron Havocs I steal with Coils having preferred enemy, 10 of them can just NOPE a unit of power armour a turn pretty reliably (hitting and wounding on 2's with the ability to reroll 1's) and can get a fair few glances on a vehicle in any given turn. So it looks like he has to hide in the battleground until a unit can join him!

Not sure I've ever seen it played that way. I am waiting on the official model before playing with Alpharius, but some folks made their own and the popular thing to do is drop him in a claw. We've all counted that as being on the table.

HandofMars wrote:
Not sure I've ever seen it played that way. I am waiting on the official model before playing with Alpharius, but some folks made their own and the popular thing to do is drop him in a claw. We've all counted that as being on the table.

Curious, how is he counted as being on the table if he is in the claw though? Or did you just house rule that one?

EDIT: I mean like, is there a rule somewhere that let's this be a thing (as if so point me to it) or is it just purely the way your group interpret the rule from the Alpharius entry?

sm3g wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Hi guys,

Alpharius' "Sire of the Alpha Legion" special rules says all your Alpha Legion dudes get preferred enemy (Everything) "while he is on the table and has been revealed".
Now i get this means you don't get it if he is hidden or in reserves. Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?

Well... the rule is pretty explicit, saying Alpharius must be revealed and placed on the table. Is he placed on the table when he is inside a transport? Nope. So... It is a bit weird that you can reveal him inside a transport (one of the bullet points for "One of Many"), but not place him on the table.

Yeah I figured as much, that's super duper annoying though, means starting him inside a transport is kind of useless unless he is also hidden.
EDIT: Although if you were to stick him with a squad of Lernaen, buy them a Spartan as a dedicated transport, take Mutable Tactic of infiltrate you can have a spartan 12" from your opponent before the start of your first turn (18" from infiltrate + 6" from scout since both of them are available for dedicated transports if the unit has them).

Not really, he can't infiltrate, and if he is hidden inside squad, you don't get scout. So you start 18'' from opponent no matter do you hide him or not.

 smurfORnot wrote:

sm3g wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Hi guys,

Alpharius' "Sire of the Alpha Legion" special rules says all your Alpha Legion dudes get preferred enemy (Everything) "while he is on the table and has been revealed".
Now i get this means you don't get it if he is hidden or in reserves. Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?

Well... the rule is pretty explicit, saying Alpharius must be revealed and placed on the table. Is he placed on the table when he is inside a transport? Nope. So... It is a bit weird that you can reveal him inside a transport (one of the bullet points for "One of Many"), but not place him on the table.

Yeah I figured as much, that's super duper annoying though, means starting him inside a transport is kind of useless unless he is also hidden.
EDIT: Although if you were to stick him with a squad of Lernaen, buy them a Spartan as a dedicated transport, take Mutable Tactic of infiltrate you can have a spartan 12" from your opponent before the start of your first turn (18" from infiltrate + 6" from scout since both of them are available for dedicated transports if the unit has them).

Not really, he can't infiltrate, and if he is hidden inside squad, you don't get scout. So you start 18'' from opponent no matter do you hide him or not.

Mutable Tactic for infiltrate.
He isn't hidden, he is joining the squad (which gives them scout, only one model needs to have it).
That will give you scout and infiltrate.

EDIT: gak - just checked something after posting this, Alpharius doesn't get my mutable tactic does he....

sm3g wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Not sure I've ever seen it played that way. I am waiting on the official model before playing with Alpharius, but some folks made their own and the popular thing to do is drop him in a claw. We've all counted that as being on the table.

Curious, how is he counted as being on the table if he is in the claw though? Or did you just house rule that one?

EDIT: I mean like, is there a rule somewhere that let's this be a thing (as if so point me to it) or is it just purely the way your group interpret the rule from the Alpharius entry?

I mean, the dreadnought in a pod is technically not on the table since it's inside a transport, but people still treat it as being there for shooting purposes. They got rid of auras from transports, but other effects and powers can still be used by a model if it's in a transport, so it's not like a unit that is in reserve and not in play. *shrug*

HandofMars wrote:

sm3g wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Not sure I've ever seen it played that way. I am waiting on the official model before playing with Alpharius, but some folks made their own and the popular thing to do is drop him in a claw. We've all counted that as being on the table.

Curious, how is he counted as being on the table if he is in the claw though? Or did you just house rule that one?

EDIT: I mean like, is there a rule somewhere that let's this be a thing (as if so point me to it) or is it just purely the way your group interpret the rule from the Alpharius entry?

I mean, the dreadnought in a pod is technically not on the table since it's inside a transport, but people still treat it as being there for shooting purposes. They got rid of auras from transports, but other effects and powers can still be used by a model if it's in a transport, so it's not like a unit that is in reserve and not in play. *shrug*

There is a specific rule allowing the dreadnought to be targetted in this instance - as much as I'd like to get preferred enemy from Alpharius while he is hiding out in a spartan I am not sure I can :(

Ugh, for a supposed tactical genius, Alpharius has really tedious deployment options which all run contrary to how you want to use him, and the sneaky reserve stuff is more fluff than substance. I would gladly trade all that noise for infiltrate and re-rolling reserves.

sm3g wrote:

 smurfORnot wrote:

sm3g wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Hi guys,

Alpharius' "Sire of the Alpha Legion" special rules says all your Alpha Legion dudes get preferred enemy (Everything) "while he is on the table and has been revealed".
Now i get this means you don't get it if he is hidden or in reserves. Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?

Well... the rule is pretty explicit, saying Alpharius must be revealed and placed on the table. Is he placed on the table when he is inside a transport? Nope. So... It is a bit weird that you can reveal him inside a transport (one of the bullet points for "One of Many"), but not place him on the table.

Yeah I figured as much, that's super duper annoying though, means starting him inside a transport is kind of useless unless he is also hidden.
EDIT: Although if you were to stick him with a squad of Lernaen, buy them a Spartan as a dedicated transport, take Mutable Tactic of infiltrate you can have a spartan 12" from your opponent before the start of your first turn (18" from infiltrate + 6" from scout since both of them are available for dedicated transports if the unit has them).

Not really, he can't infiltrate, and if he is hidden inside squad, you don't get scout. So you start 18'' from opponent no matter do you hide him or not.

Mutable Tactic for infiltrate.
He isn't hidden, he is joining the squad (which gives them scout, only one model needs to have it).
That will give you scout and infiltrate.

EDIT: gak - just checked something after posting this, Alpharius doesn't get my mutable tactic does he....

Nop, although being primarch of legion where everyone can infiltrate, their primarch can't...

When Alphy reveals himself, he replaces the previous model, up until that stage, the previous model acts and performs as a typical model of it's type. Infiltrating via Mutable is perfectly feasible.

Whilst I will not name a name... from as legit a source as you could want... :

As long as the unit is:

Infantry type
Has the Legiones Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule
Is from the army's Primary Detachment
Also its worth remembering that while he can be concealed in an infiltrating, deep striking, scouting or other such unit, but he cannot be revealed until Turn two at the earliest!

This makes absolute sense and should be fairly obvious as: until he's revealed the model saves, shoots and otherwise behaves as the model, not as Alphy. ie: Until it's Alphy, it's X.

That's not even what we're discussing though, we're talking about him in a transport, not hiding as one of his Legionnaires.

Alpharius is annoying, most of his rules are dumb, including the hiding in his own dudes and the reserve shenanigans. I'd throw it all out the window for something useful.

HandofMars wrote:
That's not even what we're discussing though, we're talking about him in a transport, not hiding as one of his Legionnaires.

Alpharius is annoying, most of his rules are dumb, including the hiding in his own dudes and the reserve shenanigans. I'd throw it all out the window for something useful.

Sm3g's post above and the post immediately above, both refer to being able to infiltrate Alpharius using Mutable tactics, which you entirely able to do as I stated above. There is discussion throughout this thread questioning if he can even use infiltration/scout etc as he's the primarch, even when hidden. He can 'hide in his own dudes' which are then in a transport...

The underlying, root cause issue there is 'does the model he replaces get MT?' and the answer is yes, until Alpharius is revealed, the model behaves as the model it represents, ergo, when it 'becomes' Alpharius, only then may it not use MT further.

Also...

Are you always this charming?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
That's not even what we're discussing though, we're talking about him in a transport, not hiding as one of his Legionnaires.

Alpharius is annoying, most of his rules are dumb, including the hiding in his own dudes and the reserve shenanigans. I'd throw it all out the window for something useful.

Sm3g's post above and the post immediately above, both refer to being able to infiltrate Alpharius using Mutable tactics, which you entirely able to do as I stated above. There is discussion throughout this thread questioning if he can even use infiltration/scout etc as he's the primarch, even when hidden. He can 'hide in his own dudes' which are then in a transport...

The underlying, root cause issue there is 'does the model he replaces get MT?' and the answer is yes, until Alpharius is revealed, the model behaves as the model it represents, ergo, when it 'becomes' Alpharius, only then may it not use MT further.

Also...

Are you always this charming?

Maybe? Not sure we're on the same page here. The model Alpharius is hiding in is whatever that model is, and can deploy however it would normally be able to deploy. As you stated, this is obvious and self-evident.

The question, unless I really missed the mark, was per OP: "Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?"

HandofMars wrote:
Maybe? Not sure we're on the same page here. The model Alpharius is hiding in is whatever that model is, and can deploy however it would normally be able to deploy. As you stated, this is obvious and self-evident.

The question, unless I really missed the mark, was per OP: "Does it also mean you don't get it while he is in a transport? Or does that still count as "on the table"?"

Yeah, but this was stated above and I was replying to it.

smurfORnot wrote:
Not really, he can't infiltrate, and if he is hidden inside squad, you don't get scout. So you start 18'' from opponent no matter do you hide him or not.

And I was replying that he can infiltrate whilst hidden or use scout, depending on the rule chosen for MT, he could be in a recon squad and get scout and infiltrate...

Guys guys guys. I'm not talking about hiding him, I want preferred enemy from the get go.
There is no way to infiltrate him if he isn't starting hidden (he can't join an infiltrating unit).
Basically I think it is gak that he can be there turn 1 giving me preferred enemy, then he can jump into a Spartan and suddenly I lose preferred enemy.

The consensus of the tread is actually wrong as far as I've discovered and seen on other forums.

For example, Lorgar's abilities also work when he's on the table and the rules specify (and not being carried by a transport).

Given FW's sloppy approach to rules-writing, I assume it's just a euphemism for "in play", which is the alternate language they use for Guilliman and others.

So as long as Alpharius is alive, not in reserve, and not in hiding, everyone gets Preferred Enemy.

HandofMars wrote:
The consensus of the tread is actually wrong as far as I've discovered and seen on other forums.

For example, Lorgar's abilities also work when he's on the table and the rules specify (and not being carried by a transport).

Given FW's sloppy approach to rules-writing, I assume it's just a euphemism for "in play", which is the alternate language they use for Guilliman and others.

So as long as Alpharius is alive, not in reserve, and not in hiding, everyone gets Preferred Enemy.

umm... the rule is VERY explicit and about as unambiguous as you can get:

"All models with the Legion Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule in the same army as Alpharius gain the Preferred Enemy (Everything) special rule while he is on the table and has been reveled." (emphasis mine)

The rule One of Many then goes on to say that Alpharius is NOT on the table and is concealed until at least turn 2 when he can be revealed, then he replaces a model and is placed on the table. I don't know how else you could possibly read those rules and conclude that all Alpha Legion models get Preferred Enemy (Everything) and all the other rules that depend on Alpharius being revealed and on the table when he is not, in fact, on the table or revealed.

The only way to gain his special rules from turn 1 onward would be to have him on the table and not concealed, but the army would lose some of those special rules because they depend on him being concealed and not on the table, and then revealed.and placed on the table.

Then again, 30K is a permissive rule set: if you and your opponent agree that all Alpha Legion models get these special rules even with Alpharius concealed and not on the table, then it doesn't matter what anyone else, or any rule book, says.

 Tamwulf wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
The consensus of the tread is actually wrong as far as I've discovered and seen on other forums.

For example, Lorgar's abilities also work when he's on the table and the rules specify (and not being carried by a transport).

Given FW's sloppy approach to rules-writing, I assume it's just a euphemism for "in play", which is the alternate language they use for Guilliman and others.

So as long as Alpharius is alive, not in reserve, and not in hiding, everyone gets Preferred Enemy.

umm... the rule is VERY explicit and about as unambiguous as you can get:

"All models with the Legion Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule in the same army as Alpharius gain the Preferred Enemy (Everything) special rule while he is on the table and has been reveled." (emphasis mine)

The rule One of Many then goes on to say that Alpharius is NOT on the table and is concealed until at least turn 2 when he can be revealed, then he replaces a model and is placed on the table. I don't know how else you could possibly read those rules and conclude that all Alpha Legion models get Preferred Enemy (Everything) and all the other rules that depend on Alpharius being revealed and on the table when he is not, in fact, on the table or revealed.

The only way to gain his special rules from turn 1 onward would be to have him on the table and not concealed, but the army would lose some of those special rules because they depend on him being concealed and not on the table, and then revealed.and placed on the table.

Then again, 30K is a permissive rule set: if you and your opponent agree that all Alpha Legion models get these special rules even with Alpharius concealed and not on the table, then it doesn't matter what anyone else, or any rule book, says.

Mate, you are not answering the question I am asking.
I know full well if he is concealed he is concealed, no other way about it - I was never trying to claim otherwise. My query was about him being already revealed, and being in a transport. EG: Turn 1 he starts on table, turn 2 he decides to embark upon a spartan or something. Turn 1 my whole army has preferred enemy, turn 2 it does not since he is no longer on the table? Seems gak but hey, that is how the rule is written right?

sm3g wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
The consensus of the tread is actually wrong as far as I've discovered and seen on other forums.

For example, Lorgar's abilities also work when he's on the table and the rules specify (and not being carried by a transport).

Given FW's sloppy approach to rules-writing, I assume it's just a euphemism for "in play", which is the alternate language they use for Guilliman and others.

So as long as Alpharius is alive, not in reserve, and not in hiding, everyone gets Preferred Enemy.

umm... the rule is VERY explicit and about as unambiguous as you can get:

"All models with the Legion Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule in the same army as Alpharius gain the Preferred Enemy (Everything) special rule while he is on the table and has been reveled." (emphasis mine)

The rule One of Many then goes on to say that Alpharius is NOT on the table and is concealed until at least turn 2 when he can be revealed, then he replaces a model and is placed on the table. I don't know how else you could possibly read those rules and conclude that all Alpha Legion models get Preferred Enemy (Everything) and all the other rules that depend on Alpharius being revealed and on the table when he is not, in fact, on the table or revealed.

The only way to gain his special rules from turn 1 onward would be to have him on the table and not concealed, but the army would lose some of those special rules because they depend on him being concealed and not on the table, and then revealed.and placed on the table.

Then again, 30K is a permissive rule set: if you and your opponent agree that all Alpha Legion models get these special rules even with Alpharius concealed and not on the table, then it doesn't matter what anyone else, or any rule book, says.

Mate, you are not answering the question I am asking.
I know full well if he is concealed he is concealed, no other way about it - I was never trying to claim otherwise. My query was about him being already revealed, and being in a transport. EG: Turn 1 he starts on table, turn 2 he decides to embark upon a spartan or something. Turn 1 my whole army has preferred enemy, turn 2 it does not since he is no longer on the table? Seems gak but hey, that is how the rule is written right?

I answered your question in post #2 of this thread. This latest post of mine is directed towards HandofMars and his interpretation of the rule.

But I'll restate my opinion: If you and your opponent agree that all Alpha Legion units get Preferred Enemy(Everything) when Alpharius is not on the table, then OK. Play on! Have fun! Doesn't matter what I, the rule book, or anyone else thinks.

 Tamwulf wrote:

sm3g wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
The consensus of the tread is actually wrong as far as I've discovered and seen on other forums.

For example, Lorgar's abilities also work when he's on the table and the rules specify (and not being carried by a transport).

Given FW's sloppy approach to rules-writing, I assume it's just a euphemism for "in play", which is the alternate language they use for Guilliman and others.

So as long as Alpharius is alive, not in reserve, and not in hiding, everyone gets Preferred Enemy.

umm... the rule is VERY explicit and about as unambiguous as you can get:

"All models with the Legion Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule in the same army as Alpharius gain the Preferred Enemy (Everything) special rule while he is on the table and has been reveled." (emphasis mine)

The rule One of Many then goes on to say that Alpharius is NOT on the table and is concealed until at least turn 2 when he can be revealed, then he replaces a model and is placed on the table. I don't know how else you could possibly read those rules and conclude that all Alpha Legion models get Preferred Enemy (Everything) and all the other rules that depend on Alpharius being revealed and on the table when he is not, in fact, on the table or revealed.

The only way to gain his special rules from turn 1 onward would be to have him on the table and not concealed, but the army would lose some of those special rules because they depend on him being concealed and not on the table, and then revealed.and placed on the table.

Then again, 30K is a permissive rule set: if you and your opponent agree that all Alpha Legion models get these special rules even with Alpharius concealed and not on the table, then it doesn't matter what anyone else, or any rule book, says.

Mate, you are not answering the question I am asking.
I know full well if he is concealed he is concealed, no other way about it - I was never trying to claim otherwise. My query was about him being already revealed, and being in a transport. EG: Turn 1 he starts on table, turn 2 he decides to embark upon a spartan or something. Turn 1 my whole army has preferred enemy, turn 2 it does not since he is no longer on the table? Seems gak but hey, that is how the rule is written right?

I answered your question in post #2 of this thread. This latest post of mine is directed towards HandofMars and his interpretation of the rule.

But I'll restate my opinion: If you and your opponent agree that all Alpha Legion units get Preferred Enemy(Everything) when Alpharius is not on the table, then OK. Play on! Have fun! Doesn't matter what I, the rule book, or anyone else thinks.

So you were, I do not know how I managed to miss the bit where you quoted his post.
Why must the book use so many different wording, in the legions book I have looked at several different primarch for their Sire of the X special rule - lots are worded differently:
Fulgrim - "Present on the battle field"
Alpharius - "On the table"
Dorn - "In Play"
Perturabo: "On the table"
Curze - "AS it's warlord" (not really at all the same thing as the other 3).
Ferrus Manus - "Army containing"
Angron: "Allied world eaters within 12" (how do you allie world eaters to world eaters?)
Girlyman - "In play"
Mortarion - "Army containing"
Horus - "Same force"
Lorgar: "On the table (and not being carried by a transport vehicle)". (why is transport specified in this one and not the other occurances?)
Vulkan: "army containing"
Corax: "On the table"


So I guess....what's the difference between:
On the table
In Play
Present on the battlefield
On the table (and not being carried by a transport)

Where does he state he is not on the table, when in a transport? The FAQ states transports can be obvious exceptions to the "not on battlefield".

He doesn't have the same qualifier as Lorgar that states his buffs don't work while being transported, and FW seems to use "in play", "on the table", and "on the battlefield" for the various Sire of ... rules.

As above.