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EDIT: The entire original post has been redone now. Attached to this post is a .doc file of the Emperor's conceptual rules. As always, this is a mere concept, and may in no way be what GW or FW have in mind for Him when He finally gets rules.

Enjoy the read and feel free to comment, but do keep it constructive.

A single D hit will still kill him, unless he has someone to Look Out, Sir! it onto. Your souped-up Iron Halo would protect against things like Stomps, but not D weapons. He'll pretty much always have a 4+ DTW, but a good Librarius Conclave could pour Warp Charges into something like Null Zone to drop him down to a 5++, then blast him with a bunch of AP2 weaponry. With Null Zone cast, assuming he doesn't have any blessings up, it would take 8 AP2 wounds, or 10 Grav hits to kill him.

That being said, he should have some weaknesses. I think the biggest advantage he'll have is the effective 6 attacks at high-strength AP2, (Either S10 or S7 Shred,) letting him win almost any challenge he's in. That being said, against Chapter Master Smashbane he's still only getting 1/6th of a wound every turn if he can't or doesn't activate Force, which might be a problem. Tarpitting him really seems like the way to go.

Smash F*cker prime still wins against him.

Smash F*cker Prime won against the theoretical emperor at 10s across the board.

Correction he ties with the Big E

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Smash F*cker prime still wins against him.

Smash F*cker Prime won against the theoretical emperor at 10s across the board.

Correction he ties with the Big E

Who is 'Smashf*cker Prime'? Because if you're referring to the popular Iron Hands Chapter Master build... No, he doesn't win. The Emperor listed here can hit him with Force weapon attacks, denying his FNP, meaning it's just a 3+ invuln. (Assuming that Big E doesn't use his Psychics to drop that to a 5+, which is entirely plausible considering he manifests on a 2+ and automatically knows that power.)

At 5 Wounds, it takes, on average, 4 hits with the D to have a greater than 50% chance of rolling a Deathblow. That's 6 D-Cannon shots, or 3 Warightknights. That's, uh... Not very Emperorish.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Smash F*cker prime still wins against him.

Smash F*cker Prime won against the theoretical emperor at 10s across the board.

Correction he ties with the Big E

Who is 'Smashf*cker Prime'? Because if you're referring to the popular Iron Hands Chapter Master build... No, he doesn't win. The Emperor listed here can hit him with Force weapon attacks, denying his FNP, meaning it's just a 3+ invuln. (Assuming that Big E doesn't use his Psychics to drop that to a 5+, which is entirely plausible considering he manifests on a 2+ and automatically knows that power.)

Smash f*cker Prime has eternal warrior, so force and ID mean nothing to him.

When kitted with his apoth squad, he has the following saves
2+ armor
2+ invul rerolling 1s
2+ feel no pain
5+ it will not die.

Site listed says he has a 2+ FNP, but im not sure how they got that.

when they put him against the theoretical emp with 10s they could not kill each other, the only way that the big E kills him is if we assume his claw is a D.
Yep nvm i see how they get to a 2+ FNP

this also assumes there is lib to grant him a invul of 2+ rerolling 1s

EW doesn't stop ID from removing FnP, so force and ID do mean something to him.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
EW doesn't stop ID from removing FnP, so force and ID do mean something to him.

I know that, but he still gets a 2+ invul rerolling 1's and a 5+ it will not die.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
EW doesn't stop ID from removing FnP, so force and ID do mean something to him.

I know that, but he still gets a 2+ invul rerolling 1's and a 5+ it will not die.

How he gets 2+ invul reroll?

EDIT: IF through psy emp. could do the same . Also str 10 would stop FnP

 Fruzzle wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
EW doesn't stop ID from removing FnP, so force and ID do mean something to him.

I know that, but he still gets a 2+ invul rerolling 1's and a 5+ it will not die.

How he gets 2+ invul reroll?

EDIT: IF through psy emp. could do the same . Also str 10 would stop FnP

The smash F*cker Prime build is the following

Chapter master with:
Wargear:

Cataphractii Terminator armour
Combi-bolter
Power sword
Iron halo
Gorgon's Chain
Special Rules:

And They Shall Know No Fear
Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands)
Eternal Warrior
Feel No Pain (4+)
Independent Character
Invulnerable (3+), reroll 1s
It Will Not Die (5+)

run with a command squad with an apoth and a lib or a lib conclave in tow rolling for sanctuary

When run in the iron hands formation his FNP gets buffed up to a 2+, and with sanctuary his invul goes from a 3+ rerolling 1s to a 2+ rerollable, even with out the lib, you still get a 3+ only failing on a 2 or 1 then 1 or 2.

Still nothing to turn a nose up at.

Yeas but as i said, he is still getting a 2+ armor and with out lib a 3 + rerolling 1 invul, and a 5+ it will not die.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
EW doesn't stop ID from removing FnP, so force and ID do mean something to him.

I know that, but he still gets a 2+ invul rerolling 1's and a 5+ it will not die.

How he gets 2+ invul reroll?

EDIT: IF through psy emp. could do the same . Also str 10 would stop FnP

The smash F*cker Prime build is the following

Chapter master with:
Wargear:

Cataphractii Terminator armour
Combi-bolter
Power sword
Iron halo
Gorgon's Chain
Special Rules:

And They Shall Know No Fear
Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands)
Eternal Warrior
Feel No Pain (4+)
Independent Character
Invulnerable (3+), reroll 1s
It Will Not Die (5+)

run with a command squad with an apoth and a lib or a lib conclave in tow rolling for sanctuary

When run in the iron hands formation his FNP gets buffed up to a 2+, and with sanctuary his invul goes from a 3+ rerolling 1s to a 2+ rerollable, even with out the lib, you still get a 3+ only failing on a 2 or 1 then 1 or 2.

Still nothing to turn a nose up at.

Yeas but as i said, he is still getting a 2+ armor and with out lib a 3 + rerolling 1 invul, and a 5+ it will not die.

Well that's easy. He only gets the 2+ FNP if he's part of a command squad with an Apothecary. Otherwise, it's just 3+. That means that he has to footslog, can't Deep Strike, and your Transport options are limited to the Land Raider family. Either way, he's only T4, so using the Burning Blade will take away his FNP anyways.
Then, all that big E has to do is kill everyone else in his squad, or pass a single well-timed DTW. Either way, you drop the blessing (Assuming that the Librarian can even get the blessing to use it, and assuming he doesn't immediately perils himself to death,)
Or, just ignore the squad. Like I mentioned, they're footslogging and S&P. They're really not much of a threat, just a fancy tarpit that costs a whole heck of a lot of points.

Not to mention that Big E can drop your invuln save by 2, to a mere 5++, or 4++ if you buff it up. 5++ rerolling ones really isn't all that great.

I didn't intend or want to make the Emperor overpowered. He is still (somewhat) human after all.

Remember how he got choked by a very large Ork, or how he almost died fighting the Echo of the First Murder (a certain someone's sword)?

Cant just kill the command squad, if smash is attached he can take all the wounds himself since in 40k you cant pick who you wound unless you have precision shot or strike

Point of the whole thing being, in order to truly represent the emperor as he is presented lore wise, you would need to make him point cost on par with a titan.

All his melee attacks would need to be D, force, casting on a 2+ ignoring perils of the warp, able to cast his mind bullets at a person which alone would need to be a rule of the model is removed from play not just wounded.

Im using smash as an example that vastly overpowered models that already rival the big E table top wise already exist.

The only way to truly make a lore friendly big E model would be to make him crazy over powered costing like 1.4k.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Cant just kill the command squad, if smash is attached he can take all the wounds himself since in 40k you cant pick who you wound unless you have precision shot or strike

Point of the whole thing being, in order to truly represent the emperor as he is presented lore wise, you would need to make him point cost on par with a titan.

All his melee attacks would need to be D, force, casting on a 2+ ignoring perils of the warp, able to cast his mind bullets at a person which alone would need to be a rule of the model is removed from play not just wounded.

Im using smash as an example that vastly overpowered models that already rival the big E table top wise already exist.

The only way to truly make a lore friendly big E model would be to make him crazy over powered costing like 1.4k.

Let's see... Focused Witchfires work, or he could just, y'know, walk around you. Your unit is interminably slow, all he has to do is shoot at you from the side.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Cant just kill the command squad, if smash is attached he can take all the wounds himself since in 40k you cant pick who you wound unless you have precision shot or strike

Point of the whole thing being, in order to truly represent the emperor as he is presented lore wise, you would need to make him point cost on par with a titan.

All his melee attacks would need to be D, force, casting on a 2+ ignoring perils of the warp, able to cast his mind bullets at a person which alone would need to be a rule of the model is removed from play not just wounded.

Im using smash as an example that vastly overpowered models that already rival the big E table top wise already exist.

The only way to truly make a lore friendly big E model would be to make him crazy over powered costing like 1.4k.

Let's see... Focused Witchfires work, or he could just, y'know, walk around you. Your unit is interminably slow, all he has to do is shoot at you from the side.

A focused witchfire could work to pick off units one at a time i suppose, But even still, its a what 500 point blob thats causing the 1000 point emperor of man kind that can rend peoples body and souls with a though to run away? Not a very good representation if you ask me.

Which is what my point is, if you want the empeoror to be an actual unit, he needs to be godly, not threatened by a fan made chaptermaster and his crew.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Cant just kill the command squad, if smash is attached he can take all the wounds himself since in 40k you cant pick who you wound unless you have precision shot or strike

Point of the whole thing being, in order to truly represent the emperor as he is presented lore wise, you would need to make him point cost on par with a titan.

All his melee attacks would need to be D, force, casting on a 2+ ignoring perils of the warp, able to cast his mind bullets at a person which alone would need to be a rule of the model is removed from play not just wounded.

Im using smash as an example that vastly overpowered models that already rival the big E table top wise already exist.

The only way to truly make a lore friendly big E model would be to make him crazy over powered costing like 1.4k.

Let's see... Focused Witchfires work, or he could just, y'know, walk around you. Your unit is interminably slow, all he has to do is shoot at you from the side.

A focused witchfire could work to pick off units one at a time i suppose, But even still, its a what 500 point blob thats causing the 1000 point emperor of man kind that can rend peoples body and souls with a though to run away? Not a very good representation if you ask me.

Which is what my point is, if you want the empeoror to be an actual unit, he needs to be godly, not threatened by a fan made chaptermaster and his crew.

Again, the easiest route here:
Get to the side. Drop the invuln to a 4++ with psychics. Hit the unit with that one D blast psychic power. Maybe throw on some other extra mind bullets of your choosing. You can reliably cast five powers per turn, after all - No need to be picky. If you prefer, cast Warp Speed and that one Librarius power that gives +2 attacks, and only use three Mind Bullets.
Charge with 11 S9 shred attacks. You hit on 3s, rerolling one of those, getting 8-9 hits, which is also 8-9 wounds. Smashbane will fail 5/12ths of his saves and gets no FNP. He dies. Easily. If his Retinue is still alive, they'll take a couple spillover wounds, then die next turn for certain.

You secerely underestimate the power of knowing every possible Psychic ability and manufesting on 2+.

Some further points on the concept rules:

1) It seems that Khorne Daemonkin do not have Daemonic Instability, but the rule I gave the Emperor (Daemons that lose in assault are instantly removed from play) still applies to them regardless.

2) If it isn't considered too OP, he could be made resistant to D weapons. Where normally Devastating Hits negate saving throws entirely, the Emperor CAN use them against such hits.

3) Since he is immune to Perils, he can freely use Sanctic powers with repercussions. Combine Hammerhand with Iron Arm and Warp Speed, and he's practically on par Daemon Lords.

4) Theoretically he could 1v1 Titans, although even I will admit his chances of winning could be low. Warhounds may not give him trouble, Reavers might, Warlords no doubt could, and Imperators may even slay him.

5) Similarly, having all four named Daemon Lords in play could be a win. The only trouble would be the Tzeentch one's weird rule about being forced to target rival Daemon Lords. If the player got around that, they could theoretically slay the Emperor.

NeoAigaion wrote:

2) If it isn't considered too OP, he could be made resistant to D weapons. Where normally Devastating Hits negate saving throws entirely, the Emperor CAN use them against such hits.

That's a little worrisome. If he's immune to everything, and has access to both Sanctuary and that one re-roll power ability, he could become far too difficult to kill - Or, rather, effectively immortal. Maybe some kind of halfway solution? 'Any rule which would cause him to be removed without any saves (Including a '6' on the D weapon table,) instead causes a single automatic wound.

3) Since he is immune to Perils, he can freely use Sanctic powers with repercussions. Combine Hammerhand with Iron Arm and Warp Speed, and he's practically on par Daemon Lords.

Why hammerhand? His sword is already S10. If he casts Iron Arm, his claw is S10, too. Hammerhand is redundant. Warp Speed, Iron Arm, and maybe Might of Heroes. (Precognition could come in handy, too.)

4) Theoretically he could 1v1 Titans, although even I will admit his chances of winning could be low. Warhounds may not give him trouble, Reavers might, Warlords no doubt could, and Imperators may even slay him.

With psychics, maybe, but not in combat - He still would hit Reavers and Warlords on 6s, assuming you use those rules. Even 6s with rerolls isn't going to do much against AV14 or 15.

Waaaghpower wrote:

NeoAigaion wrote:

2) If it isn't considered too OP, he could be made resistant to D weapons. Where normally Devastating Hits negate saving throws entirely, the Emperor CAN use them against such hits.

That's a little worrisome. If he's immune to everything, and has access to both Sanctuary and that one re-roll power ability, he could become far too difficult to kill - Or, rather, effectively immortal. Maybe some kind of halfway solution? 'Any rule which would cause him to be removed without any saves (Including a '6' on the D weapon table,) instead causes a single automatic wound.

Destroyer-grade weapons may not be in the game very much, because their models are usually quite expensive. But yes it does beg the question on how the Emperor would handle such attacks.

What if the table was altered so that a 1 would do nothing, a 2-5 would take 1 wound, and a 6 would take d3 wounds w/o saves allowed? The Emperor would still have a chance to survive, and could still regenerate wounds thanks to IWND (part of the Sire of the Primarchs rule).

NeoAigaion wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

NeoAigaion wrote:

2) If it isn't considered too OP, he could be made resistant to D weapons. Where normally Devastating Hits negate saving throws entirely, the Emperor CAN use them against such hits.

That's a little worrisome. If he's immune to everything, and has access to both Sanctuary and that one re-roll power ability, he could become far too difficult to kill - Or, rather, effectively immortal. Maybe some kind of halfway solution? 'Any rule which would cause him to be removed without any saves (Including a '6' on the D weapon table,) instead causes a single automatic wound.

Destroyer-grade weapons may not be in the game very much, because their models are usually quite expensive. But yes it does beg the question on how the Emperor would handle such attacks.

What if the table was altered so that a 1 would do nothing, a 2-5 would take 1 wound, and a 6 would take d3 wounds w/o saves allowed? The Emperor would still have a chance to survive, and could still regenerate wounds thanks to IWND (part of the Sire of the Primarchs rule).

That might work, assuming you're still allowing saves against the 2-5. And... Well, D weapons aren't exactly super rare anymore. You can get them fairly easily, from many sources.

How would a flying unit do? Say, a Grey Knight Storm Raven?

Just did some revision of his rules.

Also figured that if Horus can be slain by Destroyer weapons, why should the Emperor be immune to them?

His sword is now a Destroyer weapon against Daemons (S10 against everything else), owing to how they turn to ash when the blade meets their warp-flesh (Master of Mankind novel).

Those look like very fun rules to play with. Limiting him to only Astartes powers helps keep him from getting *too* insane with the Buffs, though I suppose he could just be taken alongside some Grey Knights to still get Sanctuary at least. That's neither here nor there.
I think the 'Can't be removed from the board, but still hurt normally by D weapons' is a good compromise. Since you can't Look Out, Sir! with things like Stomps, but you CAN Look Out, Sir! against D weapons, that seems like a fair roll - Even on a hit, a D result is only going to remove the Emperor 1/36th of the time as long as he has some kind of Invuln.


A little part of me wishes he had Biomancy access as well, purely because I've always wanted to see someone use the "Fists of Lightning, Might of Heroes, Warp Speed, Iron Arm" quadfecta, but I suppose in this case Iron Arm would be mostly just give +1 Toughness (that he could get from Warpmetal Armor) since he'd already be S10 base from the other buffs, and Warp Speed only gives him +3 attacks... Ah, wishful thinking.


Anyways, three thoughts:
I dunno what those Forge World rules you listed are, so I can't say how fair or balanced they are.
Some kind of rule letting him hit in Close Combat without penalties would probably be good, so he can't get perma-bogged down in Invisible anything. It just seems weird to have the Big E himself taken down by a very common spammy tactic.
He should *really* have access to some kind of D-strength Psychic Power, if only one. I'd hesitate to give him access to the entire Sanctic Daemonology tree, since it does open him up to having a nigh-automatic 2++ rerollable, but giving him his own unique power would be cool, and fit the fluff really well.

NeoAigaion wrote:
Just did some revision of his rules.

Also figured that if Horus can be slain by Destroyer weapons, why should the Emperor be immune to them?

His sword is now a Destroyer weapon against Daemons (S10 against everything else), owing to how they turn to ash when the blade meets their warp-flesh (Master of Mankind novel).

This makes sense, there are times he is depicted as vulnerable on the battlefield in the HH novels. He is the Emperor of Man, not the God King, and should have some deficits.

Not sure how I feel about a S10 close combat weapon. Reading these rules, I picture playing him something like I would play Magnus.

Any thoughts on points? I see him as a 1200 point model.

EDIT: Original post revision complete. File attachment included with original post.