Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I would like to know your opinions on a rules debate I had recently.

Heres the scenario;

Genestealers infiltrate into a building my entire army is scattered around. Not wanting to get charged, I move my units infront of all the exits.
If the genestealers cant leave the building, they cant charge right?
My opponent believed just because he cant disembark, doesnt mean he cant assault. Equivalent to a stationary land raider being surrounded, so the units inside make a charge roll, then stick an arm out the hatch to assault. That sounds plain wrong.

What we found was that once a building has units in it or on it, it becomes controlled by the player, and is treated like a unit in the player's army, even giving kill points.

So once his genestealers entered the building, I was not allowed within 1" of it. But if I was 1" away, his units still cannot disembark without being within 1" of mine!

We argued for quite a while about this, but in the end I just blew up the whole damn building and everyone inside. X|

What do you think? If your exits are being blocked off, does the 1" of space allow you to make a charge even though you cannot technically disembark?

Which building was it? This actually does matter.

Assuming it was a building with a statline, my primitive understanding, short of having the rules in front of me, is that they can't assault. And yeah I have never heard of an assault being resolved with embarked passengers.

 Overheal wrote:
Assuming it was a building with a statline, my primitive understanding, short of having the rules in front of me, is that they can't assault. And yeah I have never heard of an assault being resolved with embarked passengers.

Well here is why the building matters, because if its a fortification, rules state that if they have a battlement the battlement is treated as one large access point they can embark and disembark from, so in order to fully "block" them in, he would also need to have his forced spread out ontop of the fortification as well.

On top of that, fortifications also have the repel the enemy special rule letting them disembark then assault. If it was something like a bunker, your genestealer player could have disembarked onto the battlements then charged off of them. At which point i think it would just be a charge through difficult terrain at that point.

Battlements are treated as ruins and not counted as part of the building, so it would allow a player to capture and control a building but still allow enemies to move ontop of them.

There was, I believe in 6th, a way to assault between buildings as it was possible to have them occuppied by opposing forces. This may be were the idea came from.

However, for all purposes a unit embarked in a building is embarked in a transport (BRB pg 110). And models embarked in a transport are removed from the table, having no effect on the game unless a specific rule or bonus applies (FAQ pg 9 point 2).

So whilst assaulting from a building is possible (except when using the escape hatch upgrade), you have to fully disembark to do so first.

 malamis wrote:
There was, I believe in 6th, a way to assault between buildings as it was possible to have them occuppied by opposing forces. This may be were the idea came from.

However, for all purposes a unit embarked in a building is embarked in a transport (BRB pg 110). And models embarked in a transport are removed from the table, having no effect on the game unless a specific rule or bonus applies (FAQ pg 9 point 2).

So whilst assaulting from a building is possible (except when using the escape hatch upgrade), you have to fully disembark to do so first.

This is correct, which is why im curious as to which building it was, because the they might have been able to go onto the roof then assault from there.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

This is correct, which is why im curious as to which building it was, because the they might have been able to go onto the roof then assault from there.

Thats debateable, if the building really was surrounded, there'd be no physical point to place them in base to base contact with anything anyway.

 malamis wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

This is correct, which is why im curious as to which building it was, because the they might have been able to go onto the roof then assault from there.

Thats debateable, if the building really was surrounded, there'd be no physical point to place them in base to base contact with anything anyway.

Maybe, but if they cant block the roof as well, units inside can disembark onto it, move to the edge, and since the enemies models must stay 1" away from the building itself, the genestealers in question could have assault them and easily fit their units between the building and the enemy models.

Can you assault down a battlement tho?

Thats the question.

Rules say battlements are treated as ruins, is there any rule that says you cant charge from the second floor of a ruin? If not then it would be treated the same way as charging from the second floor of ruins.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Thats the question.

Rules say battlements are treated as ruins, is there any rule that says you cant charge from the second floor of a ruin? If not then it would be treated the same way as charging from the second floor of ruins.

You can quite happily charge up or down a battlement so long as there is *space* for the model at the end of its charge.

 malamis wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Thats the question.

Rules say battlements are treated as ruins, is there any rule that says you cant charge from the second floor of a ruin? If not then it would be treated the same way as charging from the second floor of ruins.

You can quite happily charge up or down a battlement so long as there is *space* for the model at the end of its charge.

Then there you go, with the 1" rule for distance, you would have enough room to fit models into the charge. Unless he completely bubbled wrapped units around the fortification base to base with one another, which i doubt, if he was following the 1" rule the nid player easily could have squeaked his way from the battlements and assaulted.

IMO i think OP was the one at fault here and the nid player should have been able to charge.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Then there you go, with the 1" rule for distance, you would have enough room to fit models into the charge.

Which requires:

1. not to be using 32mm bases
2. < 20 genestealers in the unit (to fit all of them on top of the building when they disembark)

Item 1 could actually be a problem here.

eh depends again on the building, why i wanted to know, but if you can get them on the building, unless he has a full bubble wrap, pretty sure he could get the assault.

At this point, its not a matter of if they could or could not rule wise, thats been established.

Op's opponent would have been able to charge if there was a battlement and it was not occupied by enemy models.

Now we are on the topic of if it was physically possible given model count and building battlement size.

You don't require physical space I didn't think. Draft FAQ allows for nears-as placement and especially with ruins

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You don't require physical space I didn't think. Draft FAQ allows for nears-as placement and especially with ruins

For charging out of ruins?

Also worth of notice if someone infiltrate inside a building then it's required no enemy unit it's at 12" or less from the building itself.

If you managed to fully surround the building in a single turn then he wouldn't be able to infiltrate inside.

About the charging part you were right, he needs to leave the building first then charge at you, all buildings have *repel the enemy* rule wich allow them to do so even if it was destroyed.

In order to leave the building he must disembark from the access points like if it were a normal transport, if those it is not possible (your units are there) he may perform an emergency disembarkation (placing the models anywhere in contact with the building and moving as normal, but unable to do anything else for the rest of the turn)

Lord Perversor wrote:
Also worth of notice if someone infiltrate inside a building then it's required no enemy unit it's at 12" or less from the building itself.

If you managed to fully surround the building in a single turn then he wouldn't be able to infiltrate inside.

About the charging part you were right, he needs to leave the building first then charge at you, all buildings have *repel the enemy* rule wich allow them to do so even if it was destroyed.

In order to leave the building he must disembark from the access points like if it were a normal transport, if those it is not possible (your units are there) he may perform an emergency disembarkation (placing the models anywhere in contact with the building and moving as normal, but unable to do anything else for the rest of the turn)

Genestealers have a bunch of wishy washy stuff when it comes to infiltrating mid game.

But repel the enemy also lets them disembark then assault. Outlined the stronghold assault, if the fortification has a battlement its treated as one large access point, meaning i can jump onto the battlements from inside the building, even if there is not a hatch model on it.

That where the real question comes into play, because we need to know what building he managed to surround, because his opponent very well could have disembarked onto the battlements then charged out off the battlements.

The building was not a games workshop building, its just some cheap rectangular block with windows and doors.

We were aware and agreed that the entire roof was an exit point, so he was going to get out and assault, but only through the roof.

We were not aware however, that the battlements/roof are a separate entity; or diffcult terrain for that matter; and even though he controlled the building, I was allowed on top. I had tried to block the top origionally, but was forced to re-move once we learned of the controlling buildings rule; should have read the whole page in hindsight.

The genestealers were in a formation, and I believe the special rule was "from beneath the city", which let him pop up in any building no matter how close I was.

Thankfully all five of these genestealers died when the building collapsed so we didnt have to deal with this conundrum any further at the time.

Are you saying that; even though I could have the building surrounded model to model, 1" away, if the building is not blown up, the models inside can emergency disembark and be placed within 1" of my guys?










Automatically Appended Next Post:
What my opponent was trying to prove was; since the doors opened on the building, and he could physically place his genestealers inside, he had line of sight to my units 1" away from the door, he could charge them, even if most of his unit stays inside the building.

They couldn't be placed within 1" of your guys. One thing to remember about emergency disembarking is that you can't perform any voluntary actions the rest of the turn. That would include assaulting, so they would have to be at least 1" away from your models (since assaulting is the only time when they're allowed to move within 1"). If you've got the building surrounded so there isn't a space for them to be put right outside the building with them being 1" away from you, they can't even emergency disembark.

If he's on the top of the building and has the movement to make it down, he could assault since it wouldn't be an emergency disembarking. He couild move from the inside of the building to the battlement during the movement phase, then (if he has the distance) make the charge down the side of the building, moving the models into the 1" zone you left. There wouldn't be an emergency disembarking involved with that, and Repel the Enemy allows him to disembark onto the battlement then charge (if he has the distance) the same turn.

And if he cannot place his models to emergency disembark they are removed from play I believe! It was only a 3" high building, so very possible for a from the battlements charge.

I think I got the rules all clear now, thanks everyone!

He would have been completely trapped inside the building since I originally placed models on top! Quite a rare scenario though haha I doubt I will run into this again.

Canyousmelltheplagueroses wrote:
And if he cannot place his models to emergency disembark they are removed from play I believe! It was only a 3" high building, so very possible for a from the battlements charge.

I think I got the rules all clear now, thanks everyone!

He would have been completely trapped inside the building since I originally placed models on top! Quite a rare scenario though haha I doubt I will run into this again.

Do note a building only has battlements if the rules say it do, those battlements are then treated as a ruin. If it does not have the rule it does not have battlements

These aren't GW buildings, so house rules are that they have battlements on top.