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No BGG entry for this one. Can't help but think it's due to the roasting they received for LOAD the last time around.

 rabidaskal wrote:
No BGG entry for this one. Can't help but think it's due to the roasting they received for LOAD the last time around.

BGG relies in user submissions for game pages most of the time.

Someone has submitted a page for Vanguard and it is in the queue.

https://boardgamegeek.com/items/boardgame/pending/page/9

Ah ok, thanks for this. Will be interesting to see how the BGG community reaction.

Prodos is a mess with AVP, Archon wasn't up front about their company, especially in relation to Prodos. That was why I backed out of LOAD initially, after the KS ended the updates with pictures came fast and product looked good and ready. So I backed it after the KS ended. I went with a Painted EPIC LOAD, funny name, 153 painted miniatures for $999.

I saw that this KS was in the works and with no product in hand to evaluate the quality, me backing that wasn't going to happen. But they surprised me, they send me a free unpainted boxed set over the holidays. Quite impressed with the miniature quality, virtually no flash, quite a light and relatively strong material, very detailed. The cards/tokens are OK, the board is so-so. Rules, i can't judge yet (want to wait for the painted version before playing).

I didn't back AVP and Warzone only for $1, so nnot a Prodoss victim. The only thing I can say is that I'm quite impressed by Archon and Fully backed Vanguard.

I can understand that people get quite angry, but honestly making multiple companies under a single holding isn't that strange, especially if one branch is handling (risky) licensed IP (AVP and Warzone).

Hell, I (and many with me) have been waiting for half a year longer then the AVP crowd for the other half of our Robotech KS. For many the Dropfleet Commander KS by Hawk is already a bigger mess then the AVP/Robotech KS fiasco, it certainly feels a lot less professional... I don't really see the witchhunts organizing against those two two other companies... Not even talking about Mierce miniatures and CMON...

I'm all for informing the public, but Archon has delivered product on time.

I don't think one can say that the Dropfleet KS is WORSE than AVP, and certainly not to Robotech. The latter two are years late, and iirc, with no end in sight. Hawk has certainly dropped the ball on fulfillment but being less than a year late and with a single wave to deliver is leagues ahead of AVP and Palladium. I think most Robotech backers have even given up on Wave 2 ever happening and have written it off.

That said, I do agree that Archon delivered product on time, and that objectively speaking the minis look fantastic. Personally, what turned me off of them was their attitude on BGG - I was not an AVP backer and was mildly interested in the LOAD game, up until they came on BGG talking about legal action for the digging that forum members were doing to uncover the links between Prodos and Archon. That, and their whole 'NDA' about how couldn't reveal who was behind the project until AFTER the project funded.

Cergorach wrote:

Hell, I (and many with me) have been waiting for half a year longer then the AVP crowd for the other half of our Robotech KS. For many the Dropfleet Commander KS by Hawk is already a bigger mess then the AVP/Robotech KS fiasco, it certainly feels a lot less professional... I don't really see the witchhunts organizing against those two two other companies... Not even talking about Mierce miniatures and CMON...

Robotech has a HUGE thread in the Sci Fi games subforum that's teeming with complaints.

Hawk as bad as Prodos and Palladium? Excuse me while I laugh my internal organs through my osophegus. They're not perfect, but neither are they THAT bad.

Mierce, well, their "KS every other month" business strategy that gets no flak from those who usually hate on KS companies just baffles me. "It's Mierce so it''s ok" is apparently a thing for them. Otherwise I just see expensive models for a confusing game that will never catch on.

CMON, eh, they seem to have reformed and put out a decent product in my experience.

While Dropfleet Commander isn't that late by any stretch of the imagination, I'm talking more about the incompetence on display. A complete discussion and explanation on BoW with what they're doing to fix it, filmed. A few days later the fans have to find out for themselves that Hawk completely missed a few hundred backers. Not late, not prioritized differently due to distribution, just completely missed. A couple of hundred customers that don't exist.

Mierce and CMoN management had very successful webstores, which they drove to bankruptcy and continue to sell products to customers they could never deliver. Neither company ever compensated those customers. While CMoN has had quite a few years to better themselves, all the Mierce KS still feel like a ponzi scheme...

While the Prodoss AVP KS is a mess, I still regularly see people posting "Just received my package", so they are still delivering product, but at a snails pace.

While many have given up on Robotech 2nd Wave, I certainly haven't. Still waiting on 50%+ of my pledge on an almost $1000 purchase. I'm curious if Palladium is just waiting on a lawsuit after all these years...

Apparently they are now sharing email lists, too. I used to play Warzone, but never took myself off Prodos' email list. Today I got an email from Archon announcing the Vanguard of War Kickstarter. I have NEVER visited their site nor asked to be on any mailing list for them. They had to have gotten my email from Prodos. Oh, but they are different companies with no association....riiiiggghhhtt.

I got the same thing. If it happens again Ill look up the EU data protection regs.

 Necros wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:
They also said "up yours" to Necros in fulfilling Blackwater Gulch.

Well they weren't that mean about it they just couldn't get to it till at least the end of the year, and really who knows for sure when at that point, so I dumped em. I kinda expected something to go wrong so I always kept metal as my backup option and for the foreseeable future I'm gonna stick to what I know works best for me. I don't have any ill will or anything, they're a nice bunch of fellas.. I think they really need to finish AVP and then just stick to their own stuff if they want to turn their image around.

I think this game looks good. I backed it but I don't know if I'll stay, I spent way too much on kingdom death.

You should pm your experiences to Dark Severance to update him on the business to business experience of dealing with Prodos as he was painting it as starkly in contrast to the kickstarter backer experience... they sound a heck of alot more similar now though.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690765.page?userfilterid=86322

IIRC you announced in that same thread you were going with them for your own line.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Has anyone here gotten Load yet?

How'd it turn out in your opinion?

I know there were some Dakka members that backed it.

I've been wondering if the figures in the game arrived cleaner than some of my Unicast stuff has been.

I split a pledge because was only interested in miniatures. I received it. I have to say having a foam insert for the game is awesome. They were cleaner than the other Unicast miniatures I have received but I'd still recommend toothbrush, soapbath. The detail is great. Although a bit sturdy than resin, I wouldn't treat it like plastic and try to bend things all crazy. I've dropped them, had dice hit them and they hold up.

My only complaint on the miniatures quality and detail is really the bases. They are thin so best if 'inserted' into a actual base. On the plus side for those that like to rebase and don't like integrated bases, it makes it easier to separate and remove.

For the record I received both Wave 1 and Wave 2 technically wave 2.5 AvP ages ago. I wasn't one of the US people that got stuff from Ninja Division distribution but I did order a "Warzone" miniature to receive my wave 2 stuff back when they offered it. I was still missing a few things that came on their own before LOAD was a thing. Everyone locally that also backed (8 others) know have received theirs as well, although they've mostly been sitting in a painting queue or shelf. We got to play it once but overall the delay (similar to Robotech which we still haven't gotten wave 2) made us lose interest.

Lol, were your ears ringing?

 warboss wrote:
You should pm your experiences to Dark Severance to update him on the business to business experience of dealing with Prodos as he was painting it as starkly in contrast to the kickstarter backer experience... they sound a heck of alot more similar now though.

IIRC you announced in that same thread you were going with them for your own line.

Necros unfortunately had a similar experience to me which is why they are still in the "wait and see category". He got put into a longer queue and priority went to their business in terms of Archon. Demi-Gods is still being delivered, without Prodos they wouldn't have delivered at all, but it is slow. Unless I had money to pay for something they committed too "at that time" and just go, everything goes to based on money. As I said in my posts about them, it is them being a business and I think some people can see they've taken on lot.

I'm curious how things pan out with them restructuring and Jarek stepping back.

I have resin production in-house with fulfillment being done through other groups. The only thing that keeps me interested in Archon, until someone else reverse engineers it, is the unicast because it is amazing. In terms of costs for a 'small business' to create a one piece board game without going into plastic it is amazing. But that is also why I'm in wait and see, because I dealt with the delays of their queue originally.

 warboss wrote:
Lol, were your ears ringing?

Apparently. LOL!

I'm sorry that both of you had to find out the hard way that the Prodos tiger doesn't change its stripes as easily as its name or figurehead. :(




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to clarify, if you had the money and prepaid, would you have been bumped up in the queue to the front? Is there another option of paying in installments or something that puts you further down the priority list? I'm not clear on what you meant regarding the "pay.... and just go" part. I assumed they just dump smaller long standing projects down the list when their own needs or newer/bigger money comes in.

Are the game pieces being made with the prodos UniCast?

Yes, that is the same unicast.

I'd stay away from this one. Companies like prodos, palladium, or dust studios, have shown they will put money before supporters, deliver years... years late (or never), lie, mismanagement funds, use ks funds for personal use instead of game development, etc.

The creators can change their names, but the community will look out for eachother to make sure we can spend our hard earned money on good games that we can both recieve and use. The community is speaking here, be warned. Sure the game looks cool and could be good, but I won't take the chance. Just like avp, I'll wait until retail and buy at discount retailers for a better price.

People I disagree with hindered the first LOAD Kickstarter campaign from doing better. Also, it had to compete with the Massive Darkness Kickstarter. Luckily, there will be a new LOAD campaign this year called RELOAD that will offer everything from the first campaign and more. With LOAD, Archon has proven in can deliver an incredibly high quality game on-time (actually ahead of time) when it makes the entire game in-house. The minis in LOAD are off-the-charts WICKED AWESOME. And the gameplay is very solid, simple, and easy to learn.

Vanguard of War looks SPECTACULAR!!!

Edited by RiTides - Language, please

Viper2 wrote:
People I disagree with hindered the first LOAD Kickstarter campaign from doing better. Also, it had to compete with the Massive Darkness Kickstarter. Luckily, there will be a new LOAD campaign this year called RELOAD that will offer everything from the first campaign and more. With LOAD, Archon has proven in can deliver an incredibly high quality game on-time (actually ahead of time) when it makes the entire game in-house. The minis in LOAD are off-the-charts WICKED AWESOME. And the gameplay is very solid, simple, and easy to learn.

Vanguard of War looks SPECTACULAR!!!

Archeon was what hindered the first campaign, plagiarising rules from other games, generally being shifty as they moved across from Prodos (which still has outstanding content from other kickstarters).

And like stated earlier. 1 game out of 3 does not a consistent record make.

Viper2 wrote:
The minis in LOAD are off-the-charts WICKED AWESOME.

Here I was thinking that describing them as "average, generic, board-game-quality with little personal appeal" was being overly generous.

Still, personal taste I guess.

Viper2 wrote:
And the gameplay is very solid, simple, and easy to learn

As all CMON rulesets are

 warboss wrote:
Just to clarify, if you had the money and prepaid, would you have been bumped up in the queue to the front? Is there another option of paying in installments or something that puts you further down the priority list? I'm not clear on what you meant regarding the "pay.... and just go" part. I assumed they just dump smaller long standing projects down the list when their own needs or newer/bigger money comes in.

I can't speak for Necros position. When I approached them for both 3d modeling work, 3d printing and casting it was about 2 years ago or so. They had availability and some preliminary stuff was worked out. Initially I was going to be doing a Kickstarter so it is one of those "get funded" then create and they said they had availability for that time slot. They had availability then and there, if I had money in hand, I would have had everything started and delivered at least to me.

I didn't have money in hand so I had to wait for their availability. I did my best to give an estimate but by the time everything was said and done, they had already taken on quite a bit of other projects. They no longer had availability. Time management or proper project management is a weakness but to be fair that is for quite a few companies. If I had the money already in hand at the time there was availability, then I'm fairly sure everything would have been met at that point. Kind of a "money in hand is a priority thing" which I can understand as a business.

If I was more established, installments or payments might have been an option. But it is hard for a company to take a "new startup" without some sort of loan or major source otherwise.

I had the money, and could have prepaid, but never got an invoice and wasn't going to pay till there was real work going on. I did pay for the sculpting for the 4 Unsung characters they sculpted for me. But luckily I can use them for the metal minis too, and I didn't have to really pay for much else. They did do a lot of prep and 3D printing for my new minis, but then I guess they realized they wouldn't be able to get to finish my project anytime soon.. I could have stayed with them and hoped for the best, but with no real concrete date and just a maybe, I didn't feel right making my backers have to wait until "maybe december". I think they just took on too much work and it's all catching up to them now.

But anyway, I got my LOAD pledge the other day and the minis really are awesome. I don't know how they are able to get such dynamic poses in 1 whole piece, it's like magic. And that was the whole reason I wanted to use them for my game, but I think if they can do it it's just a matter of time till someone else figures it out too.

Well, maybe part of the reason they wouldn't finish your project soon was that they put their projects ahead of yours. Trollcast seems to do the reverse, but that's resulting in their KS being more than three years overdue.

With some definite exceptions, I generally avoid creators who run multiple KS, and now I'm avoiding creators who use companies who run their own KS, or vice-versa, at least until you know what priority your backed project will be with them.

Anyway, it looks like Prodos / Archon has *three* threads mentioning their poor customer service:
* Prodos make a 28MM Aliens drop ship : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/714229.page
* "Space Crusade" a new game by Prodos : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/678971.page
* Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game from Prodos Games update page 249 : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

EDIT: More comments from a BoW forum thread: http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/sci-fi-gamer-town-square/forum/topic/calling-avp-kickstarter-backers?topic_page=52&num=15

@Dark and Necro: In those situations, I'd say that their decision was reasonable as well from a business standpoint. They just come off from their AVP actions as a company who would bump long time prepaid in full customers if something more lucrative or their own project came up suddenly regardless of the effect that would have on the other projects.

Interesting to see that Vanguard of War KS is playing out pretty much the same as LOAD, even though there wasn't anything like the kind of controversies on BGG last time round. I guess it's gotten 10% more funding which is decent:

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/#chart-daily

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1915792245/vanguard-of-war-archon-studio/#chart-daily

Pledge amount is increasing a little better, though they're still losing out in number of backers.

Last few days now, which is where on a lot of KS campaigns you see another surge. Will VoW get one, or play flat as LOAD did?

Only thing I can think of is the competition against CMON for the bucket-o-mini's crowd. Some comments in the Vanguard KS are that Archon doesn't have enough add-ons and lack of exclusives.

Any better ideas?

Shinnentai wrote:
Interesting to see that Vanguard of War KS is playing out pretty much the same as LOAD, even though there wasn't anything like the kind of controversies on BGG last time round. I guess it's gotten 10% more funding which is decent:

Well, Archon still has a 'not positive' reputation, LOAD hasn't been 'out' for that long so people can get familiar with the 'quality' of the minis/games. I've only had the basic game in my hands, they fully painted all-in set isn't scheduled to be delivered for some time. If Archon didnt send the free unpainted copy of LOAD I might not have backed Vanguard at all, I needed to get some product in my hands before pledging for more...

Also keep in mind that the painted versions were about $12.250 in extra's that are currently not available. Also, Archon did a lot of business after the KS ended and the production pictures started coming in.

@ced1106: Unless the extra addons fall under the $250 pledge, I don't want this getting anymore expensive, thank-you-very-much! I might be game for a painted set, but maybe not during the KS...

I think LOAD had ~80 sculpts, Vanguard maybe 45 new sculpts? LOAD had 110 minis for $250, Vanguard has about the same amount of minis for $250, just a lot less sculpts...