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New rule from the Castellans of the Imperium detachment.

The part that interest me, word for word:

"On a 5+ you can immediately place a new unit into Ongoing Reserves that is identical, in terms of number of models, weapons and upgrades, to the unit that was just destroyed"

Now, are dedicated transports purchased for a troop unit considered an upgrade? Thhey are technically part of what a unit can purchase.

Depending on the answer we have two situations that seem to play out:


No:

Troop unit will come back on a 5+ walking on the board. Transport, when destroyed, will also come back on it's own on a 5+.

Yes:

Troops will come back inside of their transports if a 5+ is rolled after they are destroyed. Transports themselves do not get to come back on their own since they are an upgrade OR transports are still considered a troop and you get an extra one coming in, empty, on a 5+



What is the concensus?

Since the rule refers to units and not choices, I would presume that units and their transport roll individually and also come back in individually even if both passed their 5+ roll.

For upgrades I would refer to vet sergeants, apos, banners etc.

At least that's the way I played it just today.

I have another question:

Is it possible to outflank from ongoing reserves using this ability if you have for example SM Scouts?

Voldrak wrote:
Now, are dedicated transports purchased for a troop unit considered an upgrade? Thhey are technically part of what a unit can purchase.

While they are part of a unit's options they are not an upgrade of the unit itself, being a separate unit entirely.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Is it possible to outflank from ongoing reserves using this ability if you have for example SM Scouts?

Outflank does not work from Ongoing Reserves:

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player..."

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Since the rule refers to units and not choices, I would presume that units and their transport roll individually and also come back in individually even if both passed their 5+ roll.

For upgrades I would refer to vet sergeants, apos, banners etc.

At least that's the way I played it just today.

RAW this is correct. RAI, probably not. I don't think anyone intended if a drop pod was destroyed, on a 5+ a empty one lands on the table.

The only way to play it that makes sense in my opinion is if a unit and it's dedicated transport is destroyed, on a 5+ a identical unit inside its transport is placed into ongoing reserves.

Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Since the rule refers to units and not choices, I would presume that units and their transport roll individually and also come back in individually even if both passed their 5+ roll.

For upgrades I would refer to vet sergeants, apos, banners etc.

At least that's the way I played it just today.

RAW this is correct. RAI, probably not. I don't think anyone intended if a drop pod was destroyed, on a 5+ a empty one lands on the table.

The only way to play it that makes sense in my opinion is if a unit and it's dedicated transport is destroyed, on a 5+ a identical unit inside its transport is placed into ongoing reserves.

No, because the people and the transport are different units, and the rule mentions "unit". I don't think it would make sense that if a unit is destroyed but the transport is still on the board that the unit doesn't come on as per the rules.

It is a bit tricky. Normally I would say that anything purchased *for* the unit counts as *part* of the unit, dedicated transports included. That drop pod is pointless once destroyed if it isn't part of the unit, so re-rolling is pointless. Of course that is a moot point as most transports are Fast Attack choices if not a transport and thus wouldn't be re-rolled if destroyed if not considered part of the Troop unit.

However, this presents the scenario that doctor brings up. The Battle Sister squad is killed down to the last Sister, but the Immolator they came in on is still kicking. If the dedicated transport is considered part of the unit then it too must be destroyed in order for the unit to come back.

An interesting dilemma. I know at my game store we consider anything purchased *for* the unit to be *part* of the unit.

They say in the rules that a army lists might allow for a unit to have a dedicated transport option; the dedicated transport may be "selected together with the unit" There's a definite difference between being selected with the unit and being taken as part of a unit.

Another thing to consider - if you don't blob them all together, if an infantry company had this rule, would you not let it respawn until every last member of the platoon (foc) choice) was killed, or would the individually operating units respawn once that unit was destroyed? I think most people would say that it's the latter.

ShaneMarsh wrote:
I know at my game store we consider anything purchased *for* the unit to be *part* of the unit.

So do you require the Dedicated Transport to maintain coherency with the rest of its unit? Or do you pick and choose which parts of "part of the unit" it is counted as?

Because the rules don't say anywhere they are the same unit, and you would run into some interesting problems if you considered they were...

 doctortom wrote:

Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Since the rule refers to units and not choices, I would presume that units and their transport roll individually and also come back in individually even if both passed their 5+ roll.

For upgrades I would refer to vet sergeants, apos, banners etc.

At least that's the way I played it just today.

RAW this is correct. RAI, probably not. I don't think anyone intended if a drop pod was destroyed, on a 5+ a empty one lands on the table.

The only way to play it that makes sense in my opinion is if a unit and it's dedicated transport is destroyed, on a 5+ a identical unit inside its transport is placed into ongoing reserves.

No, because the people and the transport are different units, and the rule mentions "unit". I don't think it would make sense that if a unit is destroyed but the transport is still on the board that the unit doesn't come on as per the rules.

So empty drop pods and rhinos is intended? I think not.

Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Since the rule refers to units and not choices, I would presume that units and their transport roll individually and also come back in individually even if both passed their 5+ roll.

For upgrades I would refer to vet sergeants, apos, banners etc.

At least that's the way I played it just today.

RAW this is correct. RAI, probably not. I don't think anyone intended if a drop pod was destroyed, on a 5+ a empty one lands on the table.

The only way to play it that makes sense in my opinion is if a unit and it's dedicated transport is destroyed, on a 5+ a identical unit inside its transport is placed into ongoing reserves.

No, because the people and the transport are different units, and the rule mentions "unit". I don't think it would make sense that if a unit is destroyed but the transport is still on the board that the unit doesn't come on as per the rules.

So empty drop pods and rhinos is intended? I think not.

They might not have considered the transports at all when creating the rule, thinking only of the units themselves. They might be thinking only the fleshbags and not the vehicles get recycled. Since Madame Cleo passed away you can't dial her psychic hotline to try to find out what their intention is. so best to plan on sticking to RAW. If you don't like the RAW of them being separate units, work it out with your opponent beforehand.

BRB, p 504 in the electronic version, Dedicated Transports.

“Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.

For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites. ”

This seems to say dedicated transports counts as another unit of the identical type. RAW, it is not an upgrade.

 techsoldaten wrote:
BRB, p 504 in the electronic version, Dedicated Transports.

“Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.

For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites. ”

This seems to say dedicated transports counts as another unit of the identical type. RAW, it is not an upgrade.

I think we have a winner folks! Good catch that's pretty cut and dry. If they are both units they both get a roll, and let me tell you, empty drop pods are actually really useful
.

Dedicated Transports don't take up a slot, though, and so would not count for or against the "x-y" requirement for each role.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Dedicated Transports don't take up a slot, though, and so would not count for or against the "x-y" requirement for each role.

Yes, because it specifically says 'this unit does not use up a slot' without that line DTs would totally count towards compulsories.

Well - I think it's just another example of "rules written by GW".

The intent most likely was "hey, how about on a 5+ their units come back when destroyed" - "awesome, lets do that". done. That's all the thinking GW does on that kind of rules.

RAW it's a clear case: each unit individually is placed in Ongoing reserves. so you might get a Rhino without Marines, or Marines without a drop pod, or Marines and a Drop Pod but coming in separately.

Either you play it RAW or you houserule it to what they probably intended: Have the DT and their unit roll once BOTH are destroyed, then let them come in together (tacticals in the rhino, for example). Or just houserule it to whatever you want it to be. It's not really a competetive detachment anyway I feel.

ERJAK wrote:


If they are both units they both get a roll, and let me tell you, empty drop pods are actually really useful
.

Drop pods cannot be recycled in this manner. Being immobile vehicles, they are incapable of coming back from oncoming reserves. They must arrive via deep strike, to arrive via deepstrike during deployment you declare "this unit is using deepstrike," since the 5+ is a NEW unit identical to the old, you did not declare that it was arriving via deepstrike, and cannot move as normal onto the board.

Rhinos yes, drop pod wall with recycle marines from inside yes, but not the drop pods themselves. All because they use "New unit"

Now for a different question: what about combat squad tactical marines? Would the 5 man unit respawn with all of its upgrades when it is destroyed? Or does that unit have to wait until the separate 5 man unit dies as well?

Mr ghoti wrote:
Now for a different question: what about combat squad tactical marines? Would the 5 man unit respawn with all of its upgrades when it is destroyed? Or does that unit have to wait until the separate 5 man unit dies as well?

What is the wording of combat squad, is it 1 unit treated as if it was 2 units (but still 1 unit), or does it become 2 "new" units?

 pumaman1 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


If they are both units they both get a roll, and let me tell you, empty drop pods are actually really useful
.

Drop pods cannot be recycled in this manner. Being immobile vehicles, they are incapable of coming back from oncoming reserves. They must arrive via deep strike, to arrive via deepstrike during deployment you declare "this unit is using deepstrike," since the 5+ is a NEW unit identical to the old, you did not declare that it was arriving via deepstrike, and cannot move as normal onto the board.

Rhinos yes, drop pod wall with recycle marines from inside yes, but not the drop pods themselves. All because they use "New unit"

If you declared that the unit was arriving via deepstrike before the game, and the new unit is identical to the previous unit then that unit was also declared to be arriving from deepstrike at the beginning of the game.

ERJAK wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


If they are both units they both get a roll, and let me tell you, empty drop pods are actually really useful
.

Drop pods cannot be recycled in this manner. Being immobile vehicles, they are incapable of coming back from oncoming reserves. They must arrive via deep strike, to arrive via deepstrike during deployment you declare "this unit is using deepstrike," since the 5+ is a NEW unit identical to the old, you did not declare that it was arriving via deepstrike, and cannot move as normal onto the board.

Rhinos yes, drop pod wall with recycle marines from inside yes, but not the drop pods themselves. All because they use "New unit"

If you declared that the unit was arriving via deepstrike before the game, and the new unit is identical to the previous unit then that unit was also declared to be arriving from deepstrike at the beginning of the game.

If its a new unit that didn't exist before the original unit was destroyed, no it cannot. While identical in loadout, it was not declared to be arriving via deepstrike.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Mr ghoti wrote:
Now for a different question: what about combat squad tactical marines? Would the 5 man unit respawn with all of its upgrades when it is destroyed? Or does that unit have to wait until the separate 5 man unit dies as well?

What is the wording of combat squad, is it 1 unit treated as if it was 2 units (but still 1 unit), or does it become 2 "new" units?

Codex - Space Marines wrote:
"A full strength, ten-man unit with this special rule can break down into two five-man units, called combat squads, considered to be two five-man squads of the same type. For example, a ten-man Tactical Squad can split into two five-man Tactical Squads using the Combat Squads special rule."

"A unit split into combat squads therefore is now two separate units for all game purposes"

So I think each combat squad would roll separately, and only bring back the units in that combat squad.