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We had two debates at the FLGS regarding Celestine and her new rules in Fall of Cadia.

1- She joined a unit of Vanguard Vets. Next turn, Saintly Blessing takes effect. Does she benefit from Heroic Zeal or Religious Fanaticism, or both? The last sentence in Saintly Blessings seems to indicate she would be affected by both.
2- Questions about how the wounds work. Scenario one is Celestine is out front. Is shot, wounded, fails an armor save. This wound is shrugged off to one of the Gemini. OR- Celestine is shot, wounded, Gemini takes the armor save, fails, takes a wound.

One question I have:

An Iron Priest joins a unit of Ravenwing Black Knights. Do the Black Knights get Furious Charge?

question #2 - the latter

ShaneMarsh wrote:
We had two debates at the FLGS regarding Celestine and her new rules in Fall of Cadia.

1- She joined a unit of Vanguard Vets. Next turn, Saintly Blessing takes effect. Does she benefit from Heroic Zeal or Religious Fanaticism, or both? The last sentence in Saintly Blessings seems to indicate she would be affected by both.
2- Questions about how the wounds work. Scenario one is Celestine is out front. Is shot, wounded, fails an armor save. This wound is shrugged off to one of the Gemini. OR- Celestine is shot, wounded, Gemini takes the armor save, fails, takes a wound.

1. Irrelevant, you only get 1 blessing per turn.
2. Part 2, don't forget your Look out Sir!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
One question I have:

An Iron Priest joins a unit of Ravenwing Black Knights. Do the Black Knights get Furious Charge?

No, but the IP could gain crusader and fleet on your next turn.

 quickfuze wrote:
question #2 - the latter

I thought any wounds suffered BY Celestine would have meant she would have had to have failed any appropriate save
This means even in a challenge, it kills the geminae

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

Except that when units have mixed battlefield roles they count for all the roles. An HQ attached to a Troop counts as both, according to the Deathwatch Codex, if we take that as precedence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
question #2 - the latter

I thought any wounds suffered BY Celestine would have meant she would have had to have failed any appropriate save
This means even in a challenge, it kills the geminae

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

The phrase 'suffered an unsaved wound' is a consistent bit of terminology that implies that a wound is 'suffered' BEFORE saves are taken, after all if you couldn't suffer a saved wound specifiying 'unsaved' would be redundant. The geminii rules use the term 'resolved' which leads me to believe that the order is Celestine is targeted for attack, the attack uses celestines stats for damage calculation, wounds are 'suffered', then the wounds are resolved against the geminii using their saves.

ERJAK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
question #2 - the latter

I thought any wounds suffered BY Celestine would have meant she would have had to have failed any appropriate save
This means even in a challenge, it kills the geminae

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

The phrase 'suffered an unsaved wound' is a consistent bit of terminology that implies that a wound is 'suffered' BEFORE saves are taken, after all if you couldn't suffer a saved wound specifiying 'unsaved' would be redundant. The geminii rules use the term 'resolved' which leads me to believe that the order is Celestine is targeted for attack, the attack uses celestines stats for damage calculation, wounds are 'suffered', then the wounds are resolved against the geminii using their saves.

It doesn't become an unsaved wound until the save is taken and failed.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
question #2 - the latter

I thought any wounds suffered BY Celestine would have meant she would have had to have failed any appropriate save
This means even in a challenge, it kills the geminae

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

The phrase 'suffered an unsaved wound' is a consistent bit of terminology that implies that a wound is 'suffered' BEFORE saves are taken, after all if you couldn't suffer a saved wound specifiying 'unsaved' would be redundant. The geminii rules use the term 'resolved' which leads me to believe that the order is Celestine is targeted for attack, the attack uses celestines stats for damage calculation, wounds are 'suffered', then the wounds are resolved against the geminii using their saves.

It doesn't become an unsaved wound until the save is taken and failed.

...congratulations? The wound is suffered before the save is taken and failed and then you suffer and unsaved wound.

ERJAK wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
question #2 - the latter

I thought any wounds suffered BY Celestine would have meant she would have had to have failed any appropriate save
This means even in a challenge, it kills the geminae

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

The phrase 'suffered an unsaved wound' is a consistent bit of terminology that implies that a wound is 'suffered' BEFORE saves are taken, after all if you couldn't suffer a saved wound specifiying 'unsaved' would be redundant. The geminii rules use the term 'resolved' which leads me to believe that the order is Celestine is targeted for attack, the attack uses celestines stats for damage calculation, wounds are 'suffered', then the wounds are resolved against the geminii using their saves.

It doesn't become an unsaved wound until the save is taken and failed.

...congratulations? The wound is suffered before the save is taken and failed and then you suffer and unsaved wound.

Some examples from the BRB:

To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved Wounds inflicted by each side onto their opponents.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.

Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (...)

Instant Death: If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack with this special rule, it is reduced to 0 Wounds and is removed as a casualty.

It is a consistent bit of terminology, but not the way you think it is. A wound is assigned to a model, that model attempts to save it. If it's not saved, it's an unsaved wound. Then rules like Feel No Pain can interact with that unsaved wound. Same for Celestine.

I'd like to present the following additional questions about Celestine:

1) Do Celestine's Saintly Blessing for HQ units affect herself?

2) Also it says that independent characters joined to units also benefit from saintly blessings, which is awesome. But as the Geminae Superia don't have the independent character rule, will they benefit from a blessing when they and Celestine are joined to a unit that is blessed?

Case in point - if they are joined to a fast attack unit and you bless them - all models in the unit must have fleet in order to benefit from it.

3) Can you only use one Saintly Blessing per turn?

nekooni wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
question #2 - the latter

I thought any wounds suffered BY Celestine would have meant she would have had to have failed any appropriate save
This means even in a challenge, it kills the geminae

While joined to a unit of not-HQ she is no longer an hq unit an so cannot be affected by heroic zeal.

The phrase 'suffered an unsaved wound' is a consistent bit of terminology that implies that a wound is 'suffered' BEFORE saves are taken, after all if you couldn't suffer a saved wound specifiying 'unsaved' would be redundant. The geminii rules use the term 'resolved' which leads me to believe that the order is Celestine is targeted for attack, the attack uses celestines stats for damage calculation, wounds are 'suffered', then the wounds are resolved against the geminii using their saves.

It doesn't become an unsaved wound until the save is taken and failed.

...congratulations? The wound is suffered before the save is taken and failed and then you suffer and unsaved wound.

Some examples from the BRB:

To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved Wounds inflicted by each side onto their opponents.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more unsaved Wounds during any phase, it must take a Grounded test at the end of that phase.

Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (...)

Instant Death: If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack with this special rule, it is reduced to 0 Wounds and is removed as a casualty.

It is a consistent bit of terminology, but not the way you think it is. A wound is assigned to a model, that model attempts to save it. If it's not saved, it's an unsaved wound. Then rules like Feel No Pain can interact with that unsaved wound. Same for Celestine.

You're still missing the point, basically all it boils down to is that the wound shunts to the geminii before saves are taken.


As for the other guy:
1) Because she's and HQ unit and because she counts as being within 12 of herself she should be able to giver herself zealot.
2) That is a very good question, I think the only precedent you could find would involve Iron Priest rulings so I'd check through the draft FAQs to try and get an idea. Because honestly, RAI I would say yes but there's just as strong of an argument for nay.
3) The rule says "A saintly blessing...' so most likely yes.

The official rules for Celestine state:

Divine Guardians: The Geminae Superia both have a 4+ invulnerable save. In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead.

I would read this as follows:

1. Roll to hit - vs Celestine's WS in melee; BS as normal shooting
2. Roll to wound - S vs Celestine's Toughness
3. Roll to save - vs Geminae Superia's Armor
4. Allocate Wound - to Geminae Superia
5. Roll any wound prevention on Geminae Superia if they have been granted it.
6. Roll Look Out Sir! - Geminae Superia are Characters and therefore can receive LOS.

Wounds are shunted before saves are taken and thefore all saving after the wound roll is done by the Superias.

This makes logical sense. Because if a wound was unsaved and allocated to Celestine before it was shunted, her Eternal Warrior would remove instant death from STR6+ as it would just be a -1wound.

From a "fluff" standpoint, the idea is that they're jumping in front of bullets to protect their Saint, because they know she'll resurrect them.

 Marmatag wrote:


This makes logical sense. Because if a wound was unsaved and allocated to Celestine before it was shunted, her Eternal Warrior would remove instant death from STR6+ as it would just be a -1wound.

On a point of order: Eternal Warrior does not remove the Instant Death rule - it just makes the model only suffer 1 Wound rather than lose all their Wounds. This is why you can't take FNP on Eternal Warrior models that have been hit by an Instant Death wound, because the Instant Death rule is still in effect and thus prevents FNP from working.

ERJAK wrote:

As for the other guy:
1) Because she's and HQ unit and because she counts as being within 12 of herself she should be able to giver herself zealot.
2) That is a very good question, I think the only precedent you could find would involve Iron Priest rulings so I'd check through the draft FAQs to try and get an idea. Because honestly, RAI I would say yes but there's just as strong of an argument for nay.
3) The rule says "A saintly blessing...' so most likely yes.

Thanks! I'll have a look at the FAQ later today.

Another thought, as the saintly blessings only affect non-vehicle units, the Lord of War buff can only be used by Marneus Calgar right now? Possibly ol Rob in the future?

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


This makes logical sense. Because if a wound was unsaved and allocated to Celestine before it was shunted, her Eternal Warrior would remove instant death from STR6+ as it would just be a -1wound.

On a point of order: Eternal Warrior does not remove the Instant Death rule - it just makes the model only suffer 1 Wound rather than lose all their Wounds. This is why you can't take FNP on Eternal Warrior models that have been hit by an Instant Death wound, because the Instant Death rule is still in effect and thus prevents FNP from working.

Thank you!

I think the core issue remains the same, though - her suffering 1 wound for a STR6+, and then being shunted, is fundamentally different than one of her guards being instant death'd.

Thank you for the responses everyone!

I agree that the Gemini take the saves in the scenario. I still think GW should do a FoC FAQ at some point to clarify it as well as a few other things.

Another thought, as the saintly blessings only affect non-vehicle units, the Lord of War buff can only be used by Marneus Calgar right now? Possibly ol Rob in the future?

And Draigo.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Another thought, as the saintly blessings only affect non-vehicle units, the Lord of War buff can only be used by Marneus Calgar right now? Possibly ol Rob in the future?

And Draigo.

SJ

Logan Grimnar, too, let's not forget good ol' Logie.

What happens when celestine LoS her geminae? They are characters too - an endless loop?

peirceg wrote:
What happens when celestine LoS her geminae? They are characters too - an endless loop?

You can only LOS! a wound once