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 Lance845 wrote:
You still have to try an wrest control over a creature you have no common links to. When a Eldar psychically dominates a human the human mind functions very similar to the Eldars. Orks, Necrons, even deamon all have a common ground of the same basic emotions, instincts and drives. They may be taken to different extremes, felt at different levels, but the core motivations an Eldar experiences can be related to.

Not so with the nids. This is why I used the square peg in a round hole analogy. Unless you are psychically controlling each muscles to move the nid literally like a marionette the nids mind is SO alien from anything else anyone in the 40k universe has any experience with that trying to control it would be impossible. The mind itself is so alien touching the fringes of the hive mind drives men mad or kills them.

You would not be able to make a nid do something by convincing it would want to do that thing. Their minds don't work in any way relateable enough for you to implant the suggestion. You have to remember that individual nid organisms are not themselves actual organisms. They are like white blood cells in a macro organism that spans uncountable bodies constantly being digested and rebirthed. You could no more mentally dominate a carnifex then you could an orks autoimmune system.

This man speaks the truth

I like the image of a psyker trying to dominate a Termagant and being forced to control each individual nerve impulse because their brains are so alien to one-another, so it moves really clunkily like a marionette. Very creepy. Very grimdark

I do wonder whether you'd have a modicum of success with daemonic possession. Bound daemons can adapt themselves to the controls of an inanimate vehicle, so they are capable of interfacing with completely alien devices. Given that the shadow has a deleterious effect on daemons one can only speculate as to what would happen if they regained their synapse link, or how pleased the daemon would be being bound to such an alien organism.

I'll leave that to the Hereteks though, given that's their area of expertise...

Amoras wrote:
Lictors are not synapse creatures.

Well crap, my mistake.

I agree with the replying posts though. Except for the common "anything is possible with chaos" argument manipulating 'nids even on a small scale would be very difficult.

 Nerak wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Lictors are not synapse creatures.

Well crap, my mistake.

I agree with the replying posts though. Except for the common "anything is possible with chaos" argument manipulating 'nids even on a small scale would be very difficult.

Oh I absolutely agree that it would be difficult, and might not even be possible.

All I'm thinking is that if I was a Heretek or radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor that's where I'd start

The other option might be looting by Orks now I don't ascribe to the 'if Orks believe they can do something they can!' b*llocks. That's blown way out of proportion from a third-party observer in a relatively outdated piece of fluff. Still, there's a chance that their idiot-savant-like nature when it comes to mucking about with technology (and biology) might allow them to jury-rig some sort of XBox controller thing into the brain of a Carnifex and go joyriding

Fun though that might be, I think that it's unlikely. All of the Orks' innate technological capability comes from the Old Ones. Depending on the origins of the Tyranids (I don't buy the whole 'last weapon of the Old Ones' conspiracy thing), they might not have the innate information required to figure out how they work. Again though, that opens an argument about how much of the Orks' intelligence is genetically pre-coded and how much is genuine innovation...

Hmmm. There seems to be a lot of speculation being peddled as fact here. Primarily, the functionality of the hive mind, and how it relates to synapse, and the default 'mind' of the basic termagant.

It is true that the Hive Mind is focused through synapse creatures. Yet the strength of that connection is dependent upon the capabilities of the synapse creature. A tyranid Warrior cannot focus sufficient of the Hive Mind's might to direct warp blasts as a Zoanthrope can for example. The effective synapse range of a large Hive Tyrant on the other hand will be larger than that of a Warrior. It is quite clear that the extent of the Hive Mind's power that can be brought to bear in any given scenario is dependent upon the host, or vector (a much better word) through which it is directed.

It's a bit like a river. You may have a lake above the river of unfathomable depth with vast quantities of water, but the amount of water which can escape at any one time is limited by the physical width and depth of the river. Likewise, the amount of strength and power of the Hive Mind which can be exerted in any given scenario is dependent upon the capability and quantity of the vectors. Those in turn are interconnected and amplify each other to a certain extent.

Much like the river, it relies on something of a trickle down effect. You cannot have more water flowing in a wider section downriver than you had in a smaller river upstream. As such if there's a single zoanthrope and twenty termagants all alone on a world with no other nids in the system, the zoanthrope won't be able to tune into the hive mind's might to any great degree, that requires bigger, better adapted beasties, or lots more beasties of his own calibre. He won't generate the shadow in the warp all by his lonesome self, his connection simply isn't strong enough.

This is where your average psyker comes in. Psyker strength and capabilities vary tremendously. If we're talking about the ability to psychically seize control of nids, the psyker isn't faced with the full might of the Hive Mind, he's faced instead with the might of the collective local vectors connection to it.

To utilise the river analogy again, the psyker isn't trying to fill in and direct the flow of the entire lake and all attached tributaries. Instead, he's trying to build a dam across one branch of the river itself to control what occurs downstream. The more synapse creatures there are, and the better adapted for directing that power they are, the wider the river and stronger that river current is going to be. But if it's that lone isolated Zoanthrope millions of miles from other nids? It's a pretty small river, and much more easily seized control of.

Psykers are capable of dominating the minds of many alien species and animals. The more psychically powerful and sentient it is, the more difficult the control. Basic termagants have basic animalistic instincts, so logically, there is no reason why it should require any more effort than directing the mind of an ambull or grynx. The psyker is limited to an extent by the mind he is working with (he cannot make an alien feel an emotion it is not physiologically capable of feeling), and his own mind (he cannot inspire emotions or complex needs of which he himself cannot conceive), but he can direct what is already present that he can recognise. In the case of the basic termagant, instincts such as burrowing, attacking, fleeing, and so forth are quite rudimentary and so should be well within the grasp of a human or eldar psyker.

These are just termagants however. In the case of something more complex, say, a Warrior, the Warrior itself is more intelligent, and has that link to the Hive Mind. The difficulty in possessing and directing it is consequently dependent upon the strength of that connection, or river (to tie back). If it is on it's own an extremely long way from any other 'Nids, it would likely be no more difficult than taking over an Eldar (who are quite latently psychic).

If it has three other warriors next to it, the difficulty would be much increased, and probably akin to trying to control a moderately powerful psyker. If on top of that, there's a Hive Tyrant and six Zoanthropes, it would like trying to control an Alpha Plus psyker, and if there's a crapton of them everywhere, in orbit and on the ground (a full hive fleet), it's like trying to direct Khorne. The strength of the connection (or size and depth of the river) is simply too powerful for it to be feasible. Even putting that one toe in the river to start trying to dam it leaves you swept away by the strength of the current.

I am of course, guessing at the relative connective strength of the various beasties to the Hive Mind, but the general concept is fairly straightforward.

You are still thinking of the individual organism as separate organisms. A termagant may be a white blood cell, the synapse creatures are the nervous system.

A hive fleet finds a planet and produces organisms to attack, terraform, and prepare the planet for digestion. What a termagant does is akin to that white blood cell. Without direction is does it's thing.

Genestealers and Lictors are the same. They don't need direct impulse from the hive mind. They see an organism to attack and they do. They may be "more intelligent" and able to act better independently, but they are still just riding out pre programed orders as part of a greater whole.

Synapse creatures are like the nervous system. Sending out impulses and directing the flow of the body. Reacting here and there. Except the mind behind the nervous system is the collective conscious of the whole species. The gestalt entity of the great devourer. And that entity is more cunning and intelligent than most people give it credit for. That would be because even though that termagant is only a white blood cell, it's also ears, eyes, and neurons itself.

What if you, as a single organism, could experience and understand the experiences of every cell in your body. And you had such control over them that they died and reproduced on command. Reproducing into new forms to suit your current needs.

Now imagine a grain of breading on a chicken nugget trying to tell your white blood cell what to do.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are still thinking of the individual organism as separate organisms. A termagant may be a white blood cell, the synapse creatures are the nervous system.

That's all well and good, but we're talking biology here. Each individual creature has a brain, and that brain contributes to the Hive Mind in a great gestalt feedback loop. The Hive Mind is the greatest collective mind of all Tyranids, but it requires each Tyranid creature to connect it to it, ala a computer connecting to a network. What a psyker would do is interfere with the connection between the individual beast and the Hive mind/network. The level of psychic force required depends upon the strength of that connection. The strength of that connection is in turn determined by the number and capability of synapse creatures in the vicinity.

If the psyker was forced to confront the full weight of the Hive Mind, it would be impossible, akin to trying to confront a Chaos God or the Emperor. But the psyker simply doesn't. It attacks the vector of the Hive Mind, and the strength of the Hive Mind present in that exchange is limited to the number and capabilities of local vectors. If you're arguing with that, and claiming that the full force of the Hive Mind is intrinsically present in each and every vector to battle any psychic assault, then you are effectively saying that every Warrior has God-Like psychic capabilities and potential. Which is patently absurd.

Once the connection to the Hive Mind has been cut off/overruled, the psyker can then stimulate/direct the appropriate reactions in the dominated creature according to what he can recognise. In a termagant, that would be eating, fleeing, recognising something as a basic foe/friend, and so on. In something more complex, like a genestealer hybrid, they would be able to stimulate the more standard emotions according to that race. With larger synapse creatures, the emotions they are capable of individually possessing which would be recognisable and thus directable is a bit more debatable ( we know Hive Tyrants possess anger, for example but not if they can feel sadness), but the principle remains the same.

 Ketara wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You are still thinking of the individual organism as separate organisms. A termagant may be a white blood cell, the synapse creatures are the nervous system.

That's all well and good, but we're talking biology here. Each individual creature has a brain, and that brain contributes to the Hive Mind in a great gestalt feedback loop. The Hive Mind is the collective mind of all Tyranids, but it requires each Tyranid creature to connect it to it, ala a computer connecting to a network.

Sure they have a "brain". But it's not like your brain. It doesn't function like your brain does. It's grown very specifically to interface with that network. Your psyker trying to interface with that computer is like trying to link a windows 10 pc to a punch card computing bank from the 50s. Yeah, they are both "brains/computers". But they are so fundamentally different that connecting them together in any way that doesn't just break them is impossible.

What a psyker would do is interfere with the connection between the individual beast and the Hive mind/network. The level of psychic force required depends upon the strength of that connection. The strength of that connection is in turn determined by the number and capability of synapse creatures in the vicinity.

You are only looking at the issue of the gestalt consciousness fighting with you for control. You are not considering that that thing has been built to only interface with that gestalt consciousness.

If the psyker was forced to confront the full weight of the Hive Mind, it would be impossible, akin to trying to confront a Chaos God or the Emperor. But the psyker simply doesn't. It attacks the vector of the Hive Mind, and the strength of the Hive Mind present in that exchange is limited to the number and capabilities of local vectors. If you're arguing with that, and claiming that the full force of the Hive Mind is intrinsically present in each and every vector to battle any psychic assault, then you are effectively saying that every Warrior has God-Like psychic capabilities and potential. Which is patently absurd.

No single organism is created to bring the full might of the hive mind channeled through it. The closest you get in old fluff is a norn queen which does not exist in the new codex. But a termagant is not one link into a center mass. A termagant is one node in a vast web with many connections coming to and from. You are not fighting off one link to a centralized hive mind. You are fighting off all the links to the rest of the hive. If ANY other nid organism is present then the hive mind exists. And the distance that travels is more than planetary.

Even non synapse creatures like genestealers are part of the hive mind. The nids know where to go to nom because the genestealers built cults to sufficient levels that the amount of tyranid genetics on the planet creates a beacon not unlike a hive ship and calls the fleet to absorb them back into the biomass. That beacon projected by non synapse creatures carries beyond solar systems.

How are you getting that termagant far enough away from other nids?

Once the connection to the Hive Mind has been cut off/overruled, the psyker can then stimulate/direct the appropriate reactions in the dominated creature according to what he can recognise. In a termagant, that would be eating, fleeing, recognising something as a basic foe/friend, and so on. In something more complex, like a genestealer hybrid, they would be able to stimulate the more standard emotions according to that race. With larger synapse creatures, the emotions they are capable of individually possessing which would be recognisable and thus directable is a bit more debatable ( we know Hive Tyrants possess anger, for example but not if they can feel sadness), but the principle remains the same.

The gants ARE the hive mind. They ALL are. That is what a hive mind is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, side note, IA: The Anphelion Project shows how when without certain organisms tyranids will go into hibernation and mutate into entirely different strands to fill needs.

Lets pretend you get a termagant away. It will become a warrior given time and lay genetic material capable of producing greater numbers. They will adapt wings where they did not have any before. They will take a couple dozen gants and grow Heirophants.


Again, the hive mind is all of them. It isn't just present in Synapse, it's just reinforced and focused.

 Lance845 wrote:

Sure they have a "brain". But it's not like your brain. It doesn't function like your brain does. It's grown very specifically to interface with that network. Your psyker trying to interface with that computer is like trying to link a windows 10 pc to a punch card computing bank from the 50s. Yeah, they are both "brains/computers". But they are so fundamentally different that connecting them together in any way that doesn't just break them is impossible.

Errr...not quite. A brain is a very specific biological organ with very specific biological processes which produce very specific effects. A brain does not start cleaning your blood supply or producing sperm. It is a specific organ, and it produces specific effects by working in specific, recognisable ways. That's why we call it a 'brain;', it has certain common properties as an organ.The more complex it gets, the more complex those effects are, manifesting as drives, then emotions, and then consciousness according to complexity. A psyker can tap into and direct any one of those drives, emotions, and consciousnesses that they themselves can recognise. And tyranids most assuredly have at least some of those which could be recognised by a human or eldar.

Using your argument above, no psyker would ever be able to interface with any brain of another species ever, on account of the fact that they would have evolved on separate world, and function in slightly separate ways. But they do. All the time.That's canon. And there is no fluff anywhere, stating that Tyranid brains are somehow so special snowflake different on a purely biological level that they cannot be interfaced with by a psyker. That's entirely your headcanon there.

You are only looking at the issue of the gestalt consciousness fighting with you for control. You are not considering that that thing has been built to only interface with that gestalt consciousness.

Because it's an absurdity. Termagant brains are very clearly more than just a nerve relay for the Hive Mind, because they possess individualistic animalistic behaviours when cut off from the Hive Mind. That very clearly shows that there is a separate consciousness directed by the brain inside its head which is merely overruled when the Hive Mind is in direct control. That is the consciousness which is directed by the psyker when the local Hive Mind vector is overruled/cut off.

No single organism is created to bring the full might of the hive mind channeled through it. The closest you get in old fluff is a norn queen which does not exist in the new codex. But a termagant is not one link into a center mass. A termagant is one node in a vast web with many connections coming to and from. You are not fighting off one link to a centralized hive mind. You are fighting off all the links to the rest of the hive. If ANY other nid organism is present then the hive mind exists. And the distance that travels is more than planetary.

If I stick two termagants together, it doesn't create a Hive Mind. I need a synapse creature to generate it and link the local termagants together into a Hive Mind. And just because that Hive Mind is created does not mean it has interfaced with the Hive Mind from beyond the universe. It's not large enough or powerful enough for that.

Even non synapse creatures like genestealers are part of the hive mind. The nids know where to go to nom because the genestealers built cults to sufficient levels that the amount of tyranid genetics on the planet creates a beacon not unlike a hive ship and calls the fleet to absorb them back into the biomass. That beacon projected by non synapse creatures carries beyond solar systems.

You're literally making my point for me. You have to bond sufficient numbers of Tyranids together into a sufficiently powerful Hive Mind/beacon before the central Hive Mind (Primary Hive Mind?) can spot it. At which point it sends a tendril towards the beacon/smaller mind. When it gets there, sufficient mass is attained that that Hive Mind is absorbed into the Primary Hive Mind. But until that tendril arrives, or it absorbs sufficient mass in its own right to create a powerful enough Hive Mind to reach beyond the Universe, that local Hive Mind is only as powerful as the local tyranids which comprise and channel it. It's why killing off 'Stealers kills the beacon, for every one you kill, the local Hive Mind is diminished.

Also, side note, IA: The Anphelion Project shows how when without certain organisms tyranids will go into hibernation and mutate into entirely different strands to fill needs.

Lets pretend you get a termagant away. It will become a warrior given time and lay genetic material capable of producing greater numbers. They will adapt wings where they did not have any before. They will take a couple dozen gants and grow Heirophants.

Again, the hive mind is all of them. It isn't just present in Synapse, it's just reinforced and focused.

All that proves is that the Tyranids are genetically coded to try and reproduce in a specific way if reduced to a certain level of existence. Much like the Orks. The ability to contribute towards and be controlled by a Hive Mind is in all Tyranids. That does not in turn necessarily mean all Tyranids are permanently hardwired into the great gestalt Primary Hive Mind from beyond the Universe.