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So, I'm still butthurt about deffrollas becoming useless, just get that out of the way.

But regardless, I find myself rarely taking battlewagons. I feel that having multiple trukks with spread out units is a better bet than one big battlewagon, as seems like everyone's got deep striking/flying multimeltas which just make them go *pop*.

And yes, trukks die easily, but they're a quarter the cost. And most of the time, in my experience, they perform a similar job, about as well.

And here's, I think, my biggest issue. Most of the time, you can deploy trukks in cover, in order to give them a save, or even get out of LOS. And even if you go second, it's rare the players have enough long-range, ignores cover/volume of fire shooting capable of destroying multiple trukks. Going either first or second, first turn trukks go 24", which is what they're for, and whether they live or die, they've done their job.

Battlewagons do a similar job, but for 4x the points cost. And once they've disembarked their cargo, seems like they are about as useful as empty trukks, and die about as quickly to melta and assaults and the like.

Which brings me to the blitz brigade. 5x scouting battlewagons is nice, on paper, but in a competitive, say, 1850 list, that's almost 40% of your list taken up by rear armor 10 vehicles with little to no utility outside of transport. And do you even have enough points left over to have things worth transporting?

I mean, with old deffrollas, battlewagons become a legitimate threat that had to be dealt with, even empty. now they're a handful of small arms, or at best, a killkannon.

So, I suppose, my question is: Why take battlewagons when trukks do a similar job about as well for far fewer points? Because in my mind, they both zoom forward, disembark and/or die. And that's about all they do.

Trukk spam is certainly more competitive than the blitz brigade but that formation is not useless, can be nice good. I sometimes run a list with 5 BW, warboss in megarmor, painboy, 3 units of boyz, 2 units of 10 tankbustas, 5 lobbas and 10 bikes. It struggled a lot against melta spam in drop pods but against several opponents perform quite good for orks standard. I prefer trukks spam but some lists that spam s5-6-7 shots can easily destroy half of your trukks turn 1. That's nothing worse that having 15 meganobz footslogging in your deployment zone. Also in KP missions battlewagons spam can be better as a trukks spam list has more than 20 easy KPs. So yeah, trukks are better but battlewagons are not garbage, their formation can be useful.

Trukks + VSG is what i use. Haven't tried battlewagons in 7-th cause it seems that it would be a handicap. All the units are small enough to fit in trukks. All the opponents are either quick, droppoded, wizardspam or gravspam.
I've also tried gunwagons and they're a very interesting choice. But they usually take up another cad and cost more than trukks + VSG and are worse than trukks vs melta, grav and haywire. They do have undercosted assault planks that are great.

Yeah the only problem with trucks is there is no way to jam a megaboss and a painboy with a group of boyz. The wagon has room for that plus a mini mek more Boyz and Weirdboy for psychic defense and the occasional warpath.

 koooaei wrote:
Trukks + VSG is what i use. Haven't tried battlewagons in 7-th cause it seems that it would be a handicap. All the units are small enough to fit in trukks. All the opponents are either quick, droppoded, wizardspam or gravspam.
I've also tried gunwagons and they're a very interesting choice. But they usually take up another cad and cost more than trukks + VSG and are worse than trukks vs melta, grav and haywire. They do have undercosted assault planks that are great.

One of these days I need to whip up some gunwagons. They seem like a nice hybrid - not as paper-thin as a trukk, but not as expensive as a wagon.

 Hades wrote:
Yeah the only problem with trucks is there is no way to jam a megaboss and a painboy with a group of boyz. The wagon has room for that plus a mini mek more Boyz and Weirdboy for psychic defense and the occasional warpath.

With Trukk rush, forget painboyz. More Warbosses. You can fit a megaboss in a trukk with 9 boyz + nob. You can put a eavy armor boss in a trukk with 9 boyz + nob + Mek. If the warboss trukk goes away before the warboss gets where he is going, switch him to another nearby trukk.

You are right, though. Painboyz for wagons. Bigger squads mean you get more bang for you buck. I ran a double Cad or list that does really well for me built around 2 wagons.
Megaboss w/ Lucky stikk + Mek + Painboy + 15 boyz + Nob in Wagon 1.
Warboss w/ Da Finkin Kap + Mek + Painboy + 15 boyz + Nob in Wagon 2.

Why only 15 in the second wagon? That is so I can drop out Da Finkin Kap boss for the Megaboss if the megaboss's wagon goes away. The Megaboss depends much more on transport than the EA boss, and the EA boss is my warlord, so hanging a bit back isn't a big problem for him.

I almost took the Adepticon Maelstrom with that list. It was a 40 person RTT. Final game was against Double Wraith Knight with Skathatch. Warp Spider Aspect host, and Scat Bikes. I was at top table. I got off an unreasonably lucky turn 2 charge on the Skathatch with my Megaboss. Failed Fear. Did 1 wounds to it after FNP. Turn 3, I joined him with my other warboss. Both bosses failed fear, and I only did 2 wounds after FNP. If I had made those fear tests I would have won it.

How about Quintuple CAD?

MAWB with Bosspole in Trukk w RR and 10 Sluggas? 200 points x 2 per CAD x 5 CAD's?

10 Fast Objective Secured Trukks Containing 10 MAWB's with 10 ablative wounds each? Each Truck is 10/10/10.

Sounds like a new Demon God is born whose favorite number is ten!!!

Good thing about Blitz Brigade is that your fielding basically a wall of AV14 which negates a lot of the enemy shooting. Most range weapons are in the S6 or lower category and long range S8+ shooting is not very common outside of melta which is very short range and tends to only show up turn 1 if there are drop pods. It lets you take potentially minimum casualties from enemy shooting and you close the gap to where Orks are best (punching squishies in the face) and brings your shooting units into firing range. Killkannons are quite useful and work well on units containing things like MANz, Tankbustas, Lootas, and Flash Gitz.

Trukk spam has its own merits with mass quantity and cheaper investment into the transport itself but its almost certain that some will die which usually spells the death of whatever unit happens to be inside it unless its MANz. Trukk spam is way more useful against armies with limited shooting while Battlewagons have an edge against armies that want to blow you off the table with shooting but fall apart in close combat (such as Tau).

 PipeAlley wrote:
How about Quintuple CAD?

MAWB with Bosspole in Trukk w RR and 10 Sluggas? 200 points x 2 per CAD x 5 CAD's?

10 Fast Objective Secured Trukks Containing 10 MAWB's with 10 ablative wounds each? Each Truck is 10/10/10.

Sounds like a new Demon God is born whose favorite number is ten!!!

Uhmmm... Neither Gork nor Mork can count that high, so I guess it's gotta be a new god's jurisdiction. Malal ?

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
How about Quintuple CAD?

MAWB with Bosspole in Trukk w RR and 10 Sluggas? 200 points x 2 per CAD x 5 CAD's?

10 Fast Objective Secured Trukks Containing 10 MAWB's with 10 ablative wounds each? Each Truck is 10/10/10.

Sounds like a new Demon God is born whose favorite number is ten!!!

Uhmmm... Neither Gork nor Mork can count that high, so I guess it's gotta be a new god's jurisdiction. Malal ?

Gork can count up to 5, Mork can count from 6 to 10. So, it fits so far.

I feel the same way, without a deffrolla a BW is just an expensive transport that doesn't even use its AV14 that often. If it was AV 14/13/12 I could justify its ridiculous cost but at 14/12/10 its just a giant liability, its like GW forgot that the front arc is literally 1/3rd as big as the side arcs.

Anyway, I do still use BWs but I do so because I like fielding large units of boyz. Against recent players I have been fielding 2-3 BWs filled with Boyz with a PK Nob. What I like to do is target overload with some trickery involved. I will use my BWs to shield my 2 trukkz filled with boyz and shield the BWs with 2 units of Warbikers ranging ahead creating a distraction. Most enemies choose to shoot the bikes off the table because as everyone knows, Bikes are the best unit we have. I usually run them with just a PK/Nob so i can field 2 units of 6 for about 300pts. The best part is that even Jinking those bikes have decent dakka and can tie up the opposition in CC for a bit while the hammer falls in the shape of 65-80 Boyz including 5 PK Nobs and usually my Warboss w/DLS and PK and painboy.

Don't get me wrong, against net lists this isn't going to do much but it is what it is. I just prefer bigger units of boyz so I can at least pretend to get some use out of Mob rule.

my biggest issue with BW other than points cost or deffrolla nerf ... why did they make it so long and thin? the front armor arc is so miniscule past turn 1 everything is side armor if it wants to be

 G00fySmiley wrote:
my biggest issue with BW other than points cost or deffrolla nerf ... why did they make it so long and thin? the front armor arc is so miniscule past turn 1 everything is side armor if it wants to be

Because Orks! Seriously, Orks should be charging ahead is my guess. A Codex or Supplement Superheavy 30 capacity MegaWagon with KFF 14/13/12 Open-topped would be nice.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
my biggest issue with BW other than points cost or deffrolla nerf ... why did they make it so long and thin? the front armor arc is so miniscule past turn 1 everything is side armor if it wants to be

Because Orks! Seriously, Orks should be charging ahead is my guess. A Codex or Supplement Superheavy 30 capacity MegaWagon with KFF 14/13/12 Open-topped would be nice.

And by GW pricing that would cost about 220pts without any weapons on it. :(

To be honest a capacity of 20 and a 14/12/10 4 HP vehicle is fine, the problem is the cost of the wagon, it should be around 80-90 points with a weapon and a ram.

I'd also like the possibility to take battlewagons as dedicated transport for the boyz or at least for the elites, like burnas or tankbustas. Using a precious heavy support choice only to get a transport for a troop unit seems a waste to me.

I agree that Battlewagons are overcosted. AV 14 is not really that tough and it is just on the front. Being able to carry 20 models is nice for an Ork player, but it might not be as nice as having a 30 Ork mob charging up the board.

But the Battlewagon model looks so cool. It's always been one of my favorite things about 40k. I have seen more Battlewagon conversions than anything else in the game.

I love it the same way I love Terminators. It's not the best thing on the board, but it gives flavor to the army.

Oh yeah it feels like an armoured tram.

Obviously the answer is the Big Squiggoth. Take 3 and never worry about Stunned, Immobilized, Melta, Haywire, Glancing or Penning again xD

In all seriousness though, I'm taking 3 in a game tomorrow against Guard and will revert once I see how effective they are xD.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Obviously the answer is the Big Squiggoth. Take 3 and never worry about Stunned, Immobilized, Melta, Haywire, Glancing or Penning again xD

In all seriousness though, I'm taking 3 in a game tomorrow against Guard and will revert once I see how effective they are xD.

Don't those only transport 10 units and have WS2? I don't have the book available right now.

My friend currently using wagons with the formation that gives them scout and he has an awesome record in our group he played 1500pts with trukks and won as well the other day but his wagons army definstly hits harder.

NewEngOli wrote:
My friend currently using wagons with the formation that gives them scout and he has an awesome record in our group he played 1500pts with trukks and won as well the other day but his wagons army definstly hits harder.

1500 pt game with no additions a BW Blitz Brigade costs 550pts. Or put another way, over 1/3rd your army. Give them Rams and 2 Weapons each and you're adding another 65pts so boom 615pts for 5 Transports with 30 S5 shots at BS2.

Now, depending on what he uses in those BWs is important, if he runs bully Boyz (stupid) then that is another 600pts, leaving you with bare points for grots and a cheap HQ. If he fills them with Boyz, 19boyz with a PK nob = 775pts. So with those BWs and 5 units of boyz you are at 1390pts. Which is just enough left over to give yourself a PK Warboss, either in Eavy armor or in MA and a few other upgrades.

So to summarize, Blitz brigade is dependent upon whats inside the wagons for it to be effective, they still have to survive 1 round of shooting before they can have their cargo assault something.

In conclusion, BWs are to expensive, to fragile and don't pack enough dakka to be worth 110pts and should be closer to 80. Also either give them better side/rear armor or give them back the fething Deff Rolla to allow them to be useful for longer or at least inflict damage before dying, Kill Kannonz SUCK!

Why do you think bully boyz in battlewagons are stupid. They cost almost like a 20-man naked boy squad with a pk-bp nob. And are infinitely better vs most stuff.
Also, deffrollas are gona be close to useless with how 6-7 edition vehicles work. It was good in 5-th because the game was different. Everyone moved away from deffrollas in 6-th even when they were working the old way. Cause even with d6 s10 hits they're not worth 20 pts with the new rules overall.

The thing is that the battlewagon itself is much less sturdy and you want to get your boyz stuck in asap. You can't tank shock or ram in the shooting phase => you got to get your boyz out of the wagon before doing that. Otherwise they'll be stuck in a deathtrap and all die when the wagon gets surrounded and wrecked. So, you move 6" disembark the boyz. Can't tank shock/ram this turn. The boyz get stuck in and either kill the enemy, continue fighting or get killed. The wagon's standing there close to the enemy. A 135+ pt av12-10 opentopped piece of losblock ready to get wrecked. Even if the opponent doesn't want to kill it, all he needs to do is move 12" away from it to avoid tankshocks. Or just ignore it and tank those d6 s10 ap- hits with his armor.

We all have memories of strong deffrollas. How they wrecked countless landraiders and monolyths. Not telling about razorbacks. Just piles of those! But it all was before 6-th. Whenever i tried to use a deff-rolla in 6-th it ended up as a 15 pt handicap (over a ram). From the top of my head, i only managed to tankshock once in every 10 games and none of those tankshocks were really all that effective. Killed a couple burnaboyz once. And inflicted 5 wounds to a dp - all of which got saved with re-roll save shenanigans. They're just so easy to avoid now - with all the limitations, pre-measurements. Or simply ignorable with all the insanely increased toughness of fleshy things and rapid decline of the amount of vehicles. It's just so common to face an army with no vehicles to ram.

At 1500 you can take da BB (with rokkit and ram in each wagon), a warboss in MA and lucky stikk, 3 units of boyz (18 with nob,bp big choppa with the warboss, 2x17 with nob,bp,pk), 2meks, 2 units of 9 tankbustas, 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts. Maybe drop the meks and 5 boyz in total in order to get 2 single deffkoptas. 1500 points on the nose, not that bad.

 Blackie wrote:
At 1500 you can take da BB (with rokkit and ram in each wagon), a warboss in MA and lucky stikk, 3 units of boyz (18 with nob,bp big choppa with the warboss, 2x17 with nob,bp,pk), 2meks, 2 units of 9 tankbustas, 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts. Maybe drop the meks and 5 boyz in total in order to get 2 single deffkoptas. 1500 points on the nose, not that bad.

At 2000 I take BullyBoz in BlitzBrigade with RR, Kannon, and 4 Rokkits, with 2 full units of Tankbustas with PK Nob and Painboy in each, 2 units of Grots hold back objectives.

55 Rokkits first turn of the game, scout allows you to hit anything on the board. Not a lot of armies can deal with all that AV 14 and/or the Fearless WS5 MANz inside hitting everything turn 2.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
At 1500 you can take da BB (with rokkit and ram in each wagon), a warboss in MA and lucky stikk, 3 units of boyz (18 with nob,bp big choppa with the warboss, 2x17 with nob,bp,pk), 2meks, 2 units of 9 tankbustas, 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts. Maybe drop the meks and 5 boyz in total in order to get 2 single deffkoptas. 1500 points on the nose, not that bad.

At 2000 I take BullyBoz in BlitzBrigade with RR, Kannon, and 4 Rokkits, with 2 full units of Tankbustas with PK Nob and Painboy in each, 2 units of Grots hold back objectives.

55 Rokkits first turn of the game, scout allows you to hit anything on the board. Not a lot of armies can deal with all that AV 14 and/or the Fearless WS5 MANz inside hitting everything turn 2.

I'd go with cheaper units, like 2x10 tankbustas with no nobz, but I'd also take 5 lobbas with 5 ammo runts, a unit of 9-10 bikes with a warboss that joins them, and of course grots, BB and Bullyboyz. Or alternatively I'd drop the bikers, taking just two painboys as HQs, 3 solo koptas and 2x5 lootas.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
At 1500 you can take da BB (with rokkit and ram in each wagon), a warboss in MA and lucky stikk, 3 units of boyz (18 with nob,bp big choppa with the warboss, 2x17 with nob,bp,pk), 2meks, 2 units of 9 tankbustas, 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts. Maybe drop the meks and 5 boyz in total in order to get 2 single deffkoptas. 1500 points on the nose, not that bad.

At 2000 I take BullyBoz in BlitzBrigade with RR, Kannon, and 4 Rokkits, with 2 full units of Tankbustas with PK Nob and Painboy in each, 2 units of Grots hold back objectives.

55 Rokkits first turn of the game, scout allows you to hit anything on the board. Not a lot of armies can deal with all that AV 14 and/or the Fearless WS5 MANz inside hitting everything turn 2.

55 Rockets at BS2 = 19ish hits at S8AP3 And when you scout forward You don't have to deal with AV14 you can reliably deal with AV12 and if the enemy has CC units they can reliably deal with AV10. And if you have a couple of AP2 weapons or a melta bomb on a sergeant you can fairly reliably blow up that AV10 rear armor and reliably feth up those tankbustas even with a 5+ FNP. And god help you if you didnt get first turn, then your opponent can really feth up your plans. if they go first they probably won't get into range of assault but definitely on the AV12 side, an if they can pop those 2 tankbusta BWs then its only GG from the get go.

The problem with this formation, like most ork formations, is that its based on a gimmick. BWs suck, so lets give them scout, but specifically spell out that you can't assault if you scout. In a fun game this is a good tactic to use and will work well, in a tournament though this is just garbage. Even ignoring Eldar being able to delete BWs at will you have to face Tau who can destroy those BWs easily and can kill the units inside with tons of AP2. Space Marines can grav them to death and feth up the units inside as well, hell even necrons don't fear this build because of RP and gauss special rules.

Blitz Brigade, just like green tide, is a gimmick army list that is only competitive when your opponent brings a non tournament list. :(

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Obviously the answer is the Big Squiggoth. Take 3 and never worry about Stunned, Immobilized, Melta, Haywire, Glancing or Penning again xD

In all seriousness though, I'm taking 3 in a game tomorrow against Guard and will revert once I see how effective they are xD.

Don't those only transport 10 units and have WS2? I don't have the book available right now.

They transport 15 units, sure it's WS2 but you're not buying it for its melee potential.
It's tough to kill (unless your opponent is Deldar or has lots of grav).

They actually worked quite well in a fight against Guard - transporting my boyz safely to the fray. I only lost one but it took one and bit turns of all the Guard shooting to take him down. The second was nearly killed when it was Thunderblitzed (left on 1 wound).

SemperMortis wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
At 1500 you can take da BB (with rokkit and ram in each wagon), a warboss in MA and lucky stikk, 3 units of boyz (18 with nob,bp big choppa with the warboss, 2x17 with nob,bp,pk), 2meks, 2 units of 9 tankbustas, 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts. Maybe drop the meks and 5 boyz in total in order to get 2 single deffkoptas. 1500 points on the nose, not that bad.

At 2000 I take BullyBoz in BlitzBrigade with RR, Kannon, and 4 Rokkits, with 2 full units of Tankbustas with PK Nob and Painboy in each, 2 units of Grots hold back objectives.

55 Rokkits first turn of the game, scout allows you to hit anything on the board. Not a lot of armies can deal with all that AV 14 and/or the Fearless WS5 MANz inside hitting everything turn 2.

55 Rockets at BS2 = 19ish hits at S8AP3 And when you scout forward You don't have to deal with AV14 you can reliably deal with AV12 and if the enemy has CC units they can reliably deal with AV10. And if you have a couple of AP2 weapons or a melta bomb on a sergeant you can fairly reliably blow up that AV10 rear armor and reliably feth up those tankbustas even with a 5+ FNP. And god help you if you didnt get first turn, then your opponent can really feth up your plans. if they go first they probably won't get into range of assault but definitely on the AV12 side, an if they can pop those 2 tankbusta BWs then its only GG from the get go.

The problem with this formation, like most ork formations, is that its based on a gimmick. BWs suck, so lets give them scout, but specifically spell out that you can't assault if you scout. In a fun game this is a good tactic to use and will work well, in a tournament though this is just garbage. Even ignoring Eldar being able to delete BWs at will you have to face Tau who can destroy those BWs easily and can kill the units inside with tons of AP2. Space Marines can grav them to death and feth up the units inside as well, hell even necrons don't fear this build because of RP and gauss special rules.

Blitz Brigade, just like green tide, is a gimmick army list that is only competitive when your opponent brings a non tournament list. :(

LOL your mileage may vary I guess.

The BW's are deployed in a line in the middle. The TB's BW's are second and fourth in that line sight the center and out BW's containing the BullyBoyz. Didn't always scout depending on opponent's list/ which Maelstrom Mission we were playing. You can shoot for a couple turns if that's what makes sense.

While I'll happily agree it's not a top tier tournament list, I almost never play in tournaments, just a weekly league. Tau actually have problems dealing with this list even side shots. Maybe lose a BW a turn, two at most. But the opponent still has to worry about the survivors. Eldar can wreak havoc against any Ork list with their Psykers, the BW gives them temporary protection. Necron nor Tyranids nor SM nor IG give this list any issue.

Very important note: they are all disposable by the end of the game. Play the mission and it wins way more than it loses.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I have dozens of games experience with this list and it can be intimidating and throw off an opponent.

You sound like a good player so I challenge you to try this list and win against whomever is top tier in your area. If you play ten (Maelstrom) games and don't win at least half I'd be very surprised.

At the moment i play in a middling area, I do play tournaments often and I can honestly say this list would melt in the face of most of the armies I face. The best I have done in tournaments is to go zhadsnark heavy with bikes. AV doesn't bother most of my opponents, SMs really don't care about BWs because they just Grav cannon them to death or at the very least immobilize the all in 2 turns or 3 turns.

When I play friendly games I wouldn't bring this because like I said, its a good list in a friendly game and against most of my opponents it would dominate, its kind of in the middle between being to good for Casual play and not nearly good enough for tournament play.

Da blitz brigade isn't garbage, is a formation that usually performs quite well for orks standards.

Its main issue is that nowadays 1/3 of the armies are SM with a lot of melta/grav, the real hard counter for that formation.

The blackmanes formation for example consists in 8+ drop pods (that cost nothing) ALL coming in first turn and all filled by min units with a melta and combi melta each usually, plus the rune priests formation which unleashes a lot of s7 ignores cover shots. Against lists like that da blitz brigade is garbage and I've witnessed 4 wagons melted in turn 1, but overall it's nice and I love it too.