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In Wrath of Magnus we got Baleful Devolution, which is a D6 str6 ap2 focussed witchfire, with added ability to produce spawns on to-wound roll of 6.

Can this, or any focussed witchfire, with similar wording, kill several models, not just the initial target model?

Wording of the psychic power in Wrath of Magnus speak of "models" in plural, allowing for possibility of killing more than one. Also, unlike most other focussed witchfires, BD does not do anything funky, but instead has a normal weapon profile and as per FAQ is then required to roll to hit and treated as a shooting attack.

The way I see it, focussed -part here allows, if successful, the spell to be a "precision shot" in that any wounds must first be resolved against the selected target. Then, rest of the wounds would be resolved against models neareast to the shooter. But I can see how it could be argued the other way around. However, by my reading the rules dont actually anywhere state that only the original target of a focussed witchfire can be killed, or indeed that focussed always targets a model as opposed to a unit. Most focussed witchfires themselves present some limitations in their text, but BD does not.

Thoughts?

Timmon

YEah if you roll over the number of WC I would suggest you kill the target model first and then closest to psyker unless LoS rolls are successful

Could you write out the relevant rules for focused witchfires?

It follows the rules for normal witchfire except if you get enough successes you get to choose the initial target model in the unit.

Ok focused witchfire.. hmm
".. follow all the normal rules for witchfire, but you choose the specific model in the target unit that you want the power to effect."

".. the power is resolved against the model you chose"

"If the cost is met. But not exceeded, resolve to the power against the closest model"

So the language of the rules for focused witchfire is definitely single model based. Hmm.

But still follows normal procedures for wound allocation, etc with the exception of the model targeted. If that model is taken out before the wound pool is depleted, the excess wounds still spill over onto other models in the unit (closest model to the psyker next after the target model)

 doctortom wrote:
But still follows normal procedures for wound allocation, etc with the exception of the model targeted. If that model is taken out before the wound pool is depleted, the excess wounds still spill over onto other models in the unit (closest model to the psyker next after the target model)

Like Destroyer wounds?

Fragile wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
But still follows normal procedures for wound allocation, etc with the exception of the model targeted. If that model is taken out before the wound pool is depleted, the excess wounds still spill over onto other models in the unit (closest model to the psyker next after the target model)

Like Destroyer wounds?

More like how shooting attacks that allow you to target models as its not at all like destroyer weapons

If it says that it's resolved against the model and not a unit than you can't kill anything other than this model unless it explictly says so in the power.

Are you saying then that if I apply precision shots to a particular model and kill on the first shot that the rest of the precision shots are lost?

 rawne2510 wrote:
Are you saying then that if I apply precision shots to a particular model and kill on the first shot that the rest of the precision shots are lost?

Of course.

The excess of wounds goes to the unit, they are not lost. This was discussed here on other post.

Also a faq

Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?
A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, the To Hit rolls matter in the same way as they do in any shooting attack.

So focused ones with a weapon profile (like for example the power we are talking here) act the same way as any shooting attac, so you can hit more than only one miniature if you are lucky. The difference is that you start wounding a miniature you select instead the closest

Franarok wrote:
The difference is that you start wounding a miniature you select instead the closest

The difference is you target the model. Not the unit.

 koooaei wrote:

Franarok wrote:
The difference is that you start wounding a miniature you select instead the closest

The difference is you target the model. Not the unit.

RAW you still target the unit, not the model.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Franarok wrote:
The difference is that you start wounding a miniature you select instead the closest

The difference is you target the model. Not the unit.

RAW you still target the unit, not the model.

".. the power is resolved against the model you choose"

i might be wrong but that looks like a clear indicator. Not 100% certain on the matter.

 koooaei wrote:
If it says that it's resolved against the model and not a unit than you can't kill anything other than this model unless it explictly says so in the power.

That's not true at all. You have to quote a rule in the book for that to stand. We are not told to ignore wound allocation procedure except for the first model taking the wounds. All other wound allocation rules apply, including excess wounds passing on to another model in the unit.

Iike this one?
"follow all the normal rules for witchfire, but you choose the specific model in the target unit that you want the power to effect."

Like, I get it isn't super specific, but it does say model to effect, not model to initially target.

This is a weird one, as I'm sure the author of baleful devolution assumed multiple models could be hit, just like the author of focused witchfire assumed only one model would ever be hit. Niether rules are particularly specific.

Of course now you can look out sir focused witchfires they are much less useful. But more shots would help.

 doctortom wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If it says that it's resolved against the model and not a unit than you can't kill anything other than this model unless it explictly says so in the power.

That's not true at all. You have to quote a rule in the book for that to stand. We are not told to ignore wound allocation procedure except for the first model taking the wounds. All other wound allocation rules apply, including excess wounds passing on to another model in the unit.

This is actually the reverse. You need a quote saying that it does go to the unit rather than the model. The current rule is that it is resolved against the model if successful. We have no precedent for FWF that multi hit, however we do have precedent for something that can cause multiple wounds that are lost when the model dies, ie Destroyer Wounds.

In this particular case, you just have more than 1 chance to cause that model hit by the FWF to fail its save.

Devolution doesn't cause multiple wounds like a D-Weapon.

It's just D6 attacks.

A slightly related thought, if you'll pardon the indulgence

So say you cause 6 wounds and your wound pool is six dice.
If you are allocating one at a time.. the first wound that successfully kills the target will cause the remaining pool to be discarded (or reallocated, depending on interpretation)
However if you roll the entire wound pool together, and get one 6, that 6 could count towards gaining a spawn. So rolling in this way improves your chances of getting a spawn, as you aren't discarding any attempts.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A slightly related thought, if you'll pardon the indulgence

So say you cause 6 wounds and your wound pool is six dice.
If you are allocating one at a time.. the first wound that successfully kills the target will cause the remaining pool to be discarded (or reallocated, depending on interpretation)
However if you roll the entire wound pool together, and get one 6, that 6 could count towards gaining a spawn. So rolling in this way improves your chances of getting a spawn, as you aren't discarding any attempts.

I'd buy that. You've convinced me you don't carry the wounds over. I'd agree you'd want to roll the entire wound pool though to see if you get a spawn. It seems like a similar situation to rolling damage results on a vehicle (not a squadron) to see if you get an Explodes result even if you have already done enough damage to destroy it. We've been told to roll all the damage results on a vehicle for that, so I'd think that could be used as precedent here.

 koooaei wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Are you saying then that if I apply precision shots to a particular model and kill on the first shot that the rest of the precision shots are lost?

Of course.

Except that isn't how precision shots works. All that changes for precision shots is the allocation, and that must be done one at a time unless you can fast dice. Which by definition you cannot do in this scenario.

Indeed is pretty clear, Instead affect the closer, you can choose.

Say that the extra wounds lose is like say that the extra wounds from a heavy bolter lose once you kill the closer miniature.


Also the faq is really clear , "If a witchfire power has a profile, the To Hit rolls matter in the same way as they do in any shooting attack". You cant decide to ignore that sentence xDDDD

also on the power description it mention that if a model is slain in this manner, they become a Chaos Spaw. Details like "a model" instead "the model" and "they" are clearly reffering to several possible deaths

You can ignore the standard witchfire rules, if you are told to do so, which you are, in the focused witchfire rules.
The wording is quite different to precision shots.