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 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I guess it would be:

-Destroy a perfectly good setting people have grown to love over decades
-turn it into a hack rules system that lacks any nuance or tactical thought
-make everything more marines all the time. Because we need even more heroic marines being even better than the already established heroic marines. They aren't heroic enough anymore.

1. Your love of something doesn't equate to sales. GW is a business and dont function on the love from fans. Fact is nobody was buying WHFB anymore, and the cost of entry into the hobby was paralyzingly high.
2. You obviously haven't played any sigmar if you think it lacks tactical thought and nuance.
2a. Nobody is stopping you (and the apparently) HORDES of people from playing 8th edition.
3. You HONESTLY dont think SCE look awesome, have great lore and have loads of potential?

1. Yet AOS had rocky sales pre-General's Handbook, and GW doesn't track which models it sells for AOS, which models get sold for 9th age, which models get sold for 40k conversions, or which models get sold for Mordheim or spare D&D minis. I've generally bought WHFB minis without playing WHFB proper. (Note: My personal favorite kits for WHFB are the Hurricanum and Flagellants. I regret only buying one Necrosphinx before the kit got squatted. Ogres also make rather handy conversion fodder.)
2. Ok, so I can run Free Peoples, add some bubblewrap, shoot you in melee, shoot you when you attempt to charge, and most of my strategy is "shoot your cannons first" before they kill the Hurricanum. I Is So Nuanced. Just need to out-DPS you before you teleport your giant blob of Savage Orcs...I mean Orruks into the middlemost scrum. Whee.
3. They look like C3P0 and an Immortal from 300 had a one-night stand and abortion. And those Pistol-Crossbow things are just hideous.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Space Lizards... that... that would win me back, yes.
I second the Space Lizards, maybe give them some big winged lizard like thing that can breath fire... what are those called again?

You mean Heldrakes?

No. Its called a space lizardman riding a cyber dino with flame throwers bolted onto its face.

 Lance845 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Space Lizards... that... that would win me back, yes.
I second the Space Lizards, maybe give them some big winged lizard like thing that can breath fire... what are those called again?

You mean Heldrakes?

No. Its called a space lizardman riding a cyber dino with flame throwers bolted onto its face.

I see. Do you also refer to "Pizza Day" as "Italian-American Sauced Bread Day" in an act of gutless political correctness?

1. Your love of something doesn't equate to sales. GW is a business and dont function on the love from fans. Fact is nobody was buying WHFB anymore, and the cost of entry into the hobby was paralyzingly high.
2. You obviously haven't played any sigmar if you think it lacks tactical thought and nuance.
2a. Nobody is stopping you (and the apparently) HORDES of people from playing 8th edition.
3. You HONESTLY dont think SCE look awesome, have great lore and have loads of potential?

You are correct. Most of the things I enjoy in life are niche and not widely recognized as popular. I know all the reasons GW decided to can WFB. And all those reasons were why I loved it. It was huge, the game took time and thought to play, armies looked like armies. Not some skirmisher bs with a handful of models on the board. The cost of entry was very high, although that could be argued about any GW game including AoS. Maybe if GW put some effort into WFB in the last 15 years rather than releasing a new SM model every other week we would be in a different position. They could have easily released all those really well priced starter boxes for fantasy, but they didn't. They could have re-made Hero Quest for fantasy to get people rolling with new models just like silver tower, but they didn't. They could have updated armies regularly just like 40K, but they didn't. It was ignored, allowed to die on the vine and then cut. And for the record, fantasy was selling really well in my area. Anecdotal perhaps, but there was interest there.

I absolutely have played AoS, and I stand by my point that it is a completely incompetent game. Everything about it is complete randomness and a hot mess. Where's my charge arcs? Fire Arcs? Flank charges, rear charges? Rank bonuses. Steadfast. Feigned flight. March Blocking. Re-directing. Charge Reactions. Tactical unit reforms. Magic dice management system. Breaking from combat. Running down broken units. Overrunning into new combats. Unit psychology. Hundreds of Magic Items. Hundreds of Spells. AoS is child's play compared to what you could do in Fantasy. The only thing that requires any kind of thought in that game is the focus on different mission objectives which I thought was a decent part of the game that Fantasy lacked. And choice of which combats to execute first, which was also a thing in Fantasy anyway.

I do still play and collect 8th edition Fantasy.

I never said anything about the Stormcasts in my previous post. I was actually referring to Primaris Marines. But since you asked, I think they look good. I have never had a problem with GW models for the most part. I like a good 75-80% of the models GW releases, although admittedly that percentage has gone down quite drastically in the last few years. I won't say anything about the Stormcast fluff because I don't really know anything about it except for the fact that they can't die? I think that part is ridiculous and removes the underlying danger and fear that should be present in any good setting. If you are effectively immortal, whats the point? That makes for poor writing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

My point is this. Are we going do destroy everything that isn't instantaneously marketable the way a space marine is? To draw that out to it's ultimate conclusion, the only army that GW should produce is space marines since they are the best sellers because nothing even comes close. To relate it to music (because I'm into music) should a label drop a Prog Metal band who has many loyal followers because they aren't selling as well as Taylor Swift? Nothing is going to sell as well as Taylor Swift. Fantasy square base/movement tray type games are a niche inside the table top gaming world. Lots of people still like it, but It's not as OMG PEW PEW LAZOR BEAMS! as 40K or AoS. It didn't need to die, It should still be supported. And we wouldn't be having this conversation if they had just let AoS be it's own thing. I could go on ignoring it and be happy that Fantasy is still around.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Space Lizards... that... that would win me back, yes.
I second the Space Lizards, maybe give them some big winged lizard like thing that can breath fire... what are those called again?

You mean Heldrakes?

No. Its called a space lizardman riding a cyber dino with flame throwers bolted onto its face.

I see. Do you also refer to "Pizza Day" as "Italian-American Sauced Bread Day" in an act of gutless political correctness?

Depends on my enthusiasm for that particular Italian-American Sauced Bread.

I am starting to wonder if this topic was made just to take dig's at AOS considering the OP has not been seen since.

I want a grim dark version of this basically.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
My point is this. Are we going do destroy everything that isn't instantaneously marketable the way a space marine is? To draw that out to it's ultimate conclusion, the only army that GW should produce is space marines since they are the best sellers because nothing even comes close. To relate it to music (because I'm into music) should a label drop a Prog Metal band who has many loyal followers because they aren't selling as well as Taylor Swift? Nothing is going to sell as well as Taylor Swift. Fantasy square base/movement tray type games are a niche inside the table top gaming world. Lots of people still like it, but It's not as OMG PEW PEW LAZOR BEAMS! as 40K or AoS. It didn't need to die, It should still be supported. And we wouldn't be having this conversation if they had just let AoS be it's own thing. I could go on ignoring it and be happy that Fantasy is still around.

Forgeworld did it. They look to be doing pretty good...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I absolutely have played AoS, and I stand by my point that it is a completely incompetent game. Everything about it is complete randomness and a hot mess. Where's my charge arcs? Fire Arcs? Flank charges, rear charges? Rank bonuses. Steadfast. Feigned flight. March Blocking. Re-directing. Charge Reactions. Tactical unit reforms. Magic dice management system. Breaking from combat. Running down broken units. Overrunning into new combats. Unit psychology. Hundreds of Magic Items. Hundreds of Spells. AoS is child's play compared to what you could do in Fantasy. The only thing that requires any kind of thought in that game is the focus on different mission objectives which I thought was a decent part of the game that Fantasy lacked. And choice of which combats to execute first, which was also a thing in Fantasy anyway.

I do still play and collect 8th edition Fantasy.

Yeah, Age of Sigmar lacks all of those things... aaand that is how it lost my interest. Playing WHFB feels like fighting an actual medieval fantasy battle. You have to see angles and opportunities but also the possible consequences before you take action. Compare the above game terms to what the 4 pages of AoS offer and anyone will see that AoS is way less nuanced than WHFB. Some may call this a good thing but I don't. AoS is supposed to be the successor of WHFB but since AoS is tactically way different, I don't think it is doing a very good job at being a successor. And that's before we figure in the killing of old fluff and replacing it with the bubble world-nonsense.

I still play 8th edition fantasy but I'm not keen on buying new stuff. They might think I'm buying it for AoS.

I never cared for both fluffs really.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I'm starting to wonder: was it a genuine question at the beginning or aimed at rant? I hope it was aimed at it cause we're being quite mad here .

Though i couldn't call the 8th rules anything, it's true that lore wise, it IS already sigmarized. Just bring back the muthafookin Emprah back in on the stage and i guess it's arguably thoroughly "age of sigmar in power armor."

Well considering the original question was seven months ago and this was just a necroposter returning this topic to the forefront, I think it was a legitimate question.

I left for a month and this thread went insane. However, I too want SPACE LIZARDMEN

I don't see as much reason for GW to change 40K the way they changed WHFB to AoS. GW didn't change WHFB for gaks and giggles, it was a business decision because the line was not making enough money. So they changed it to something that had in their view a better chance of making money. Which probably is why they lowered the difficulty of getting into the hobby, by making it simpler and maybe also by lowering the investment required to start playing,. And at the same time they took the opportunity to build a barrier to further copy-right issues by changing all the generic names into funny fantasy names,

For 40k, the rationale seems to be much weaker for a major change. 40K is as I understand it the major moneymaker for GW, and 8th edition will only have fortified that. The rules are already short, which should make it a lower barrier to entry and with Shadow War Armageddon they have the perfect gateway drug...errrr....game to introduce people to the setting without forcing them to invest massively in a miniature army. At the same time, I have the feeling they did use the 8th edition also to squash some copyright issues around space marines. You can't copyright space marines apparently, but I have a gut feeling that Primaris marines are copyrightable. So this could be a smart move in terms of protecting their IP.

And at the same time, in artistic terms, having a universe to play with instead of just 1 planet like WHFB means that there is always room for expansion. You could introduce new races and armies whenever you wanted. I could see for example the opportunity for the great rift to split the Imperium into two factions. One slightly less grimdark with RG at the head, and the Imperium Nihilus as the grimdarkest of all grimdark human empires. Or you could always expand the story of the Tyranids. What if the Tyranids weren't just coming here to devour the galaxy, but actually they were on the run from their own galaxy from something bigger and badder? And that bigger and badder just arrived on the Eastern Fringe?

Except the WHFB universe was already both given a strong backstory, as well as having a lot of room for expansion. One of the most common requests from WHFB players was for Araby to be brought in as a playable faction, considering their history in invading the Old World, as well as having an army in Warmaster. Ditto, there could easily have been a "WHFB Ancients" setting, with living Nekaharans, Sigmar and the Unberogens, War of the Beard Dwarfs, etc. Or expansions to make assorted White Dwarf armies (Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast) or options (modular Steam Tanks), or making the game less about "horde wound markers" like 8th did. Hell, they could have re-released and streamlined Mordheim, as that was the high point of 6e WHFB, or update the General's Compendium.

GW reaped what they sowed, and they let WHFB wither and die.

Add Shooty dwarwes with flying machines.

The following would be great:

- All helmets of all beings are removable with a fully detailed head underneath.
- Every unit gets a full codex
- "High Gothic" GW terrain will be banned from play and a new line based around a dystopian world, skinned like the love child of Bladerunner and Star Wars will depict what the real imperium looks like
- All models are 56mm and 25mm bases are banned
- GW announces that only GW 25mm base rings will be allowed to bring existing models into compliance. They will be finecast with a tell tail design cut into them to prevent forgeries and cost $19.99 for a 9 pack
- GW contracts with Lego to form a new lost Space Marine Chapter lead by Batman in the Scuttler. The chapter will be called something 100% original like Darkest Knights
- Everyone reading this will defend all the above because GW is your lord and master.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I guess it would be:

-Destroy a perfectly good setting people have grown to love over decades
-turn it into a hack rules system that lacks any nuance or tactical thought
-make everything more marines all the time. Because we need even more heroic marines being even better than the already established heroic marines. They aren't heroic enough anymore.

1. Your love of something doesn't equate to sales. GW is a business and dont function on the love from fans. Fact is nobody was buying WHFB anymore, and the cost of entry into the hobby was paralyzingly high.

Well doesn't sales equal "love from fans?" The more fans love it, the more they buy it.

They make a gak ton of marines because supply and demand. People love marines.

OP here. I started this thread as a genuine question, and didn't think it'd turn into an argument. I do like AoS, hence why I made the thread, cause I wanted to know what people thought about it.

 Johnny The Lictor wrote:
I started this thread as a genuine question, and didn't think it'd turn into an argument.

At least this thread made SOMETHING decent:


SPACE LIZARDMEN

OP here. I started this thread as a genuine question, and didn't think it'd turn into an argument. I do like AoS, hence why I made the thread, cause I wanted to know what people thought about it.

The problem is that the AoS/Fantasy split is a very heated and divisive topic. For me personally, it was a huge betrayal on GW part towards veteran gamers who grew up on WFB. You may like AoS and thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion. Some people may see a simplification of 40K as a good thing. I see it as a destruction of well established lore, and a complete dumbing down of game mechanics just to pander to the lowest common denominator of people who cant take the time to read what like 30 pages of rules?

Now, 8th ed has brought in some needed changes to the game. But has also brought in unnecessary and overly simplistic mechanics that deteriorate the immersion of the game and reduce tactical gameplay. I think that 8th plays better than 7th. because it was train wreck of redundancy and needlessly convoluted rules. But I see this same problem with much of what 40K is now, and especially what AoS is.

I hated AoS at first because I have always been a huge WFB player. As the setting grew and they refined the game, I have come to love it. There are a lot of tactics, but not a lot of strategy, just like 40k, and honestly, I have been enjoying AoS more lately than I have 40k
40k started off so strong with the compendiums, but as I read the codexes, I see more of the same ol 40k starting to rise to the surface and it starts feeling more like a dice rolling comp than a game.
My hope, is this will even out more when more of the codexes drop, as I would like to enjoy both of the games.