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Made in gb
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




In the latest HH book "Master of Mankind":

Spoiler:
Does he really give up?


That is how it appears at the end of the book. As we knew would happen, the web-way project fails/lies in ruin. But you would think that he would have a few words of hope at the end... instead we get what appears to be:

Spoiler:
"we're f'kd...meh" and walks off.


Anyone got any slightly more hopeful interpretations.. I might cry otherwise

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/30 21:31:42


 
   
Made in se
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






I'm currently working on a theory of the Emperors actions pre HH, something I was planning on posting weeks ago but life got in the way. To me it seems like the Emperor is no simple figure and saying simply "he gave up" doesn't quite cut it. I think he does get overwhelmed by the end at Horus betrayal, but there's more to it then him just thinking we're doomed. It's more actually as if he's in denial about how bad things go for a long time, from what I can tell.

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




Would like to hear your theory when you have the time to tap it in

I guess he clearly does not give up - knowing what comes next, pretty sure he would not stick around on his throne for the next 10k years if he had.

But still, the book end is pretty grim reading. But I suppose it could be that he really does not know what to do next. We do know, however, that he is a patient man and 10K years might be the time he needs to think it though...
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





A denial response could be that this was written by a fella who excels at writing chaos fiction, so...


Or, as he said earlier in the book he said that to predict every outcome and the steps to take would take all the lives he's lived so far. I find it rather stupid to think he hadn't been forward planning for yonks. He'd said he had come to terms with his fate, so I don't see why he can't have seen some elements of this coming and prepared; possibly knowing that he'd have to go down now for some other forseen outcome 10k years later.
Hey, if its hood enough for Eldar to be "just as planned" why not big E?

That's all very glass is overflowing thinking though.

Perchance he saw the dusk of humanity coming as a result of the heresy but could see a new dawn coming- reference fall of cadia end.

Mostly I just think it was just a chaos fan trying to make it grimdark.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





He doesn't give up. He's discussing with a Custodian Guard, and the passage says...

"My King, what now? What comes next?" The Emperor turned away, walking into the darkness of the cavern while the storm hammered the dead city so far above. He spoke three words no Custodian Guard had ever overheard him speak before "I don't know"


it's not that the Emperor is giving up, but he realizes that the plan has gone HORRIABLY off the rails, and... he's not certain whats gonna come next. I see that as basicly being the moment the Emperor realizes just how bad the heresy really is going to be, how humanity is well and truely fethed. and yeah he's for the first time in millenia, if not ever, having a moment of doubt and maybe even fear

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

Think he said he needs more time to think.

On a related note-

Is Ra running around with a sword in him? Is my understanding correct on that?

You can find me in the Chicago Tiki Room, where the drinks are always strong but don't taste that way!!!

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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Popsghostly wrote:
Think he said he needs more time to think.

On a related note-

Is Ra running around with a sword in him? Is my understanding correct on that?


well we all know that eventually that sword ends up in someone else's hands. catch the name of the deamon bound in that sword?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

BrianDavion wrote:
Popsghostly wrote:
Think he said he needs more time to think.

On a related note-

Is Ra running around with a sword in him? Is my understanding correct on that?


well we all know that eventually that sword ends up in someone else's hands. catch the name of the deamon bound in that sword?


Yep. Pretty cool. The Emperor foresaw that though I think and that's why he kept on appearing to Ra.

You can find me in the Chicago Tiki Room, where the drinks are always strong but don't taste that way!!!

http://popschicagotikiroom.blogspot.com/

https://twitter.com/PopsChTikiRoom 
   
Made in us
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




The sword did not stay in Ra, at some unseen/written point
the sword was gone and the daemon was caged within him
(or something very similar to this).

Its true, the Emperor did seem to have a rough plan by telling/showing Ra all this information and then caging a daemon in him and then setting him off into the webway.... The daemon was called Drach'nyen, is that significant in future stories? - I don't quite recall if I have read any fluff about that daemon.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/31 18:22:11


 
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut




bolter_fodder wrote:
The sword did not stay in Ra, at some unseen/written point
the sword was gone and the daemon was caged within him
(or something very similar to this).

Its true, the Emperor did seem to have a rough plan by telling/showing Ra all this information and then caging a daemon in him and then setting him off into the webway.... The daemon was called Drach'nyen, is that significant in future stories? - I don't quite recall if I have read any fluff about that daemon.
It happens to be no less than Abaddon's future Daemon Weapon
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Engrenages wrote:
bolter_fodder wrote:
The sword did not stay in Ra, at some unseen/written point
the sword was gone and the daemon was caged within him
(or something very similar to this).

Its true, the Emperor did seem to have a rough plan by telling/showing Ra all this information and then caging a daemon in him and then setting him off into the webway.... The daemon was called Drach'nyen, is that significant in future stories? - I don't quite recall if I have read any fluff about that daemon.
It happens to be no less than Abaddon's future Daemon Weapon


which actually is pretty cool when you realize it's the "Deamon of the first murder"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




New York, USA

The Webway project was everything.

It was humanitys' salvation. The great crusade, xenos invasion, chaos corruption and so on were nothing that could not be dealt with after the webway was finished.

But it was destroyed.

And now all the worlds saved and united would eventually fall.

The Emperor was working towards this final end game for thousands of years. And now it was gone.

He knew that victory for the human species was no longer possible

"Surrender and Die."

"To an Immortal, to one among a legion, honor and your word are all that matter" - Phaeron Orionis of the Brotherhood

W-L-D
6-1-3 
   
Made in se
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

It sets up nicely for The Master of Mankind Part 2: My even Worserer day

No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nottingham

 Exalted Pariah wrote:
The Webway project was everything.

It was humanitys' salvation. The great crusade, xenos invasion, chaos corruption and so on were nothing that could not be dealt with after the webway was finished.

But it was destroyed.

And now all the worlds saved and united would eventually fall.

The Emperor was working towards this final end game for thousands of years. And now it was gone.

He knew that victory for the human species was no longer possible


Exactly this. For him, it was over, and he knew he wouldn't be able to protect a psychically evolved mankind from chaos anymore.

One question I do still have is whether he genuinely doesn't care about the Primarchs, or if that was an act to make the custodians and mechanicum feel more special. What with that whole "appear as they'd like to see him" image he's got.

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on Sons of Horus

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Previous projects
30k Iron Warriors (11k+)
Full first company Crimson Fists
Zone Mortalis (unfinished)
Classic high elf bloodbowl team 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 JamesY wrote:
 Exalted Pariah wrote:
The Webway project was everything.

It was humanitys' salvation. The great crusade, xenos invasion, chaos corruption and so on were nothing that could not be dealt with after the webway was finished.

But it was destroyed.

And now all the worlds saved and united would eventually fall.

The Emperor was working towards this final end game for thousands of years. And now it was gone.

He knew that victory for the human species was no longer possible


Exactly this. For him, it was over, and he knew he wouldn't be able to protect a psychically evolved mankind from chaos anymore.

One question I do still have is whether he genuinely doesn't care about the Primarchs, or if that was an act to make the custodians and mechanicum feel more special. What with that whole "appear as they'd like to see him" image he's got.


I feel like him projecting what they wanted to see would be the best explanation as otherwise it creates continuity issues as to why the Emperor was wounded so badly against Horus at the very end because originally the Emperor clearly favoured Horus early on and the part of him that believed his son was still there was what prevented him from fully committing to destroying Horus, thereby allowing Horus to do so much damage to him and putting him on the Golden Throne. Otherwise, they're going to have to change their confrontation pretty drastically and IMO creates too much conflict with existing fluff since the Emperor clearly had some measure of relationships with his sons beyond just as tools (though obviously some are glaringly used as tools, i.e. Angron). The idea of him projecting what they want to see also fits with the Custodes and Mechanicus interacting with him since the perception of the Emperor being a completely cold and logical being fits very well with the mindset of the Mechanicus and the Custodes. The Mechanicus is all about efficiency and logic (if mired in the religious traditions of mars) and the Custodes themselves see the Emperor as the ideal of the Great Crusade, a living avatar of the Imperial Truth, someone beyond the petty notions of emotional attachments, so it wouldn't be too far off to say that's why what we're exposed of the Emperor is only this very biased facet.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





the custodes also no doubt see THEMSELVES as the emperor's "chosen sons"

now the question is, if the emperor appers as what people want him to be (which BTW really makes him the ultimate politician ) does this mean the triator primarchs secretly WANTED a dysfunctional relationship with him?
or was perhaps one of the insidious side effects of the chaos forces scattering the primarchs, that some actually saw the emperor in a NEGITIVE light no matter what he did? (which really when you think of it, if true would be perhaps the most brilliant sabotage you could think of)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/04 10:53:05


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

I think it ties back quite nicely to the following snippet from the old Bill King story of the Emperor and Horus.

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?


He has taken a knock big enough to unsettle even his composite ego.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
 
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