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First off, I want to say I love Reaper's bones line of figs. Today I bought another round of figs from them and I think I'll continue to do so through my FLGS. I also hate being negative, but hey I've wanted to talk about this and come back to dakkadakka after all this time. I'm not sure if I'd call it whining although one could see it as such. But I felt like I needed to get this off my chest. if anything it'll be cathartic!
Time to rant I guess
Reaper bones 3 has felt like the ride that never ends. Excitement lead to disappointment that now just leads to just irritation. Pretty much since November each update has been waiting and seeing bad news in some update or hidden on a forum elsewhere. I'm going to explain with some detail about what's been so frustrating.
Now also in late October of 2016 is reapercon. I did not know this. I also did not know until late December through my own investigation that reaper had made the announcement of a Bones 4 Kickstarter for spring of 2017 at reapercon. It's said the bones KS won't happen until bones 3 is fulfilled. it wouldn't shock me if some backers do not know this at all.
November 18th comes Some figures start to travel on the water
These containers will represent the last of the Core Sets, Mythos Expansion Sets, Graveyard Expansion Sets, and Stoneskull Expansion sets needed to be received. There are still unreceived Options, including Ma'aldrakar and many of the others, but we will have over 80% of the inventory in hand!
December comes and that's when I decide to look into it. Partially on their forums.
On the bones 3 post kickstarter thread on reaper's own forums I find this from Reaperbyran..
Many of the unreceived options mentioned in the November update was actually ALL of the options.
Back in November they were to have 80% of the inventory on hand once the containers reached them.
but according to that forum post the optional rewards haven't shipped at all and according to the October 14th update. The Optional rewards are over 1/3rd of the total miniatures that were created. 1.22 million of the 3.4 million figures created were optional rewards. I'm guessing adding bases lowers the percentage of options down to 19-21%. But a third of all the miniatures had yet to ship out of China by December. I'm unsure if citing total inventory really helps the backers in the November update without the context of exactly how much was missing. Considering the 1 million bases are made in house, it feels inflated to add them in when the miniatures made in china are allegedly the holdup.
The reaper forums are very kind to reaperbyran, as they should be. He's only doing his job as a PR person and doing the best he can. However those forums had less than encouraging things to say about the KS comments for bones 3. Obviously what others say on their forums is not the responsibility of reaper, but it makes it even more discouraging to want to ask questions and be critical of what's going on when people start to bash those who are wondering what exactly is going on and if or when the minis could arrive. Blaming china only goes so far for so long. and feeling quite insulted while at the very least trying to reasonably piece together what the situation is lead to me stopping my questioning there.
So January comes, allegedly 80% of the total inventory is either on a boat, in customs, or with reaper. January 20th brings promise:
We have at present: 2 additional containers currently in customs' hands (these arrived in the USA yesterday and now must be processed), and 2 more containers on the water. We are awaiting the packing lists and other paperwork (for customs purposes) for the containers on the water, so that we can confirm the contents and determine whether these are the final shipments or if 1 additional container remains.
But lo and behold 4 days later in the comments section. Of course expecting something good is too much to hope for.
If I hadn't been watching the comments like a hawk, I'd wouldn't have seen this. Chinese new year would come with bones still in a factory. And Chinese new year can suck when waiting on something from China. Sometimes it can take weeks before a factory is running full speed after New year celebrations.
There's a sweet video of Ma'al Drakar, is a very nice box, with very nice artwork inserted in the box! the art in that box looks good enough to put on a wall somewhere! Sadly us gits who helped fund this whole ordeal aren't getting that nice box, with art that looks awesome despite delay after delay and hiccup after hiccup. Backers are getting a bagged 5 headed dragon to save on shipping costs.
Bones 3 in a TL;DR format:
Yes I know there's nothing that can be done to speed up this process, yes I know I should not expect nor do I deserve anything extra, however I thought maybe I could post this for anyone who may have backed bones 3 and had no clue of the bumpy, still unfinished ride it's been. Maybe for those who plan on backing bones 4 may want to see this before backing reaper to know what to expect. I myself will not back reaper's Kickstarter projects after bones 3 because despite all the updates there's still some difficulty in finding information and the fact that we're 6 months behind, with very little clue on what exactly is going on besides "China" and not a clue as to when to possibly expect anything.
I guess that's the end of my rant. Take the info and opinions as you will.
Evil Genius at absolutely - Muffins!
Dakkamuffins!
Gubstop urlurk's big un! 7000 points(and growing!)
Lobukia wrote: One does not simply insult a mega-troll
One would think that after having done several KS campaigns of this size before, they'd know how to do it properly by now. At this rate we'll be a year overdue before it finally delivers.
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stroller wrote: Wonders if ANY kickstarters deliver the promised goods on time to promised standard - or whether I just hear about the ones that don't...
Funny enough, to date I've had one (Astropolis miniatures) deliver a month or so in advance of the stated delivery date. These projects exist, but are rare as hell!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/05 10:27:41
I'm pretty sure my big boxes in reaper bones 2 came in boxes. Also, if they're shipping the dragon unbagged, that makes the extra 70 usd they charged me for shipping the dragon a really dick move.
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
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BrookM, I agree Astropolis was awesome! Don't let me miss it if they do a follow up campaign
On Bones, he said they likely wouldn't have more info due to CNY, and the latest update covers the rest well. That's just a reality of their holiday schedule (like late December in the US!). I actually had to pay an expedite fee to get some magnets shipped before it, but for production on this scale there was likely no way to increase capacity enough to make it out beforehand.
Looks like they're really close, and I'm sure they won't launch Bones 4 until this is out. Just a little bit to go yet!
Kickstarters are inherently risky, it is good to remember that they are an alternative way to fund projects that you really want to get funded, and not a webshop nor an investment platform since you do not get shares in the company. Delays and setbacks in the development process are to be expected and company owns you nothing if things go south.
The bones series isn't such a failure at all if you asked me. You helped to make it possible for reaper to start producing these models and you are getting the models that they promised you that's more than some of us got.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/05 13:23:08
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
2017/02/05 13:23:47
Subject: Re:The frustraition that is reaper bones 3
Too many grey hairs appear over late kickstarters, and as mentioned, most of them are. I think you're better off not watching the kettle boil.
This is my stance. Fire and forget. I get it when I get it.
These are not preorders. These are supplying a company or person the cash to make something new.
My biggest beef is they are making this in China and not the good old US of fething A!
Thirded. I went in for two sledgehammer artillery pieces on this Bones campaign. I'm reasonably certain I'll get them at some point in the next six or so months, but I'm not exactly paying close attention. So long as they get here at some point and the quality is up to spec, I don't really care. I have other things in my life to stress about without adding this to the list.
RiTides wrote: BrookM, I agree Astropolis was awesome! Don't let me miss it if they do a follow up campaign
They're already hard at work making the masters for the next one. If the first one is anything to go by, a simple campaign with everything but the casts in place and one or two stretchgoals (so less chance of it all fething up), the next one will be just as great!
Any time that two companies need to coordinate their efforts, in this case Reaper and their manufacturing company, and need to rely on two levels of Customs, in this case those of China and the US, then there is plenty of room for Murphy's Law to be engaged.
Especially since the manufacturing company relies, in turn, on a supply chain for the raw materials.
At least Reaper has been providing frequent updates, and admitted when they were the ones that made a mistake. (Mmmm, crow, it's what's for dinner.) Not going off on a spirit quest to contemplate their navels.
Predicting a secondary company's manufacturing times is an exercise in futility - for both the primary company and the secondary company.
For a manufacturing Kickstarter, of course they are already working on the next one!
Doing otherwise adds another level of delay to the procedure.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
stroller wrote: Wonders if ANY kickstarters deliver the promised goods on time to promised standard - or whether I just hear about the ones that don't...
Funny enough, to date I've had one (Astropolis miniatures) deliver a month or so in advance of the stated delivery date. These projects exist, but are rare as hell!
From personal experience, I'd add Microcosm Miniatures, Oathsworn Miniatures and Bad Squiddo Games to the list - along with Shades of Vengeance from an RPG perspective.
Having said that, I don't tend to mind things being late as long as there is communication. Keep me updated, and don't try to hide when there are problems, and we're probably good, y'know?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Meh. Reaper has good comms and will follow through. I'm not worried about it. I'm certainly not going to be bothered enough to go on an extensive link/picture-laden rant about it.
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati"
2017/02/05 21:32:25
Subject: Re:The frustraition that is reaper bones 3
Not worried at all, just a stumble by reaper.. I imagine shipping will start late March.
If you want a nightmare kickstarter just go look at Robotech tactics..
We are fast approaching the 4th year anniversary of when it all started with no real end in sight..
But Palladium games do keep saying they are working on it...
2017/02/06 12:31:27
Subject: Re:The frustraition that is reaper bones 3
Too many grey hairs appear over late kickstarters, and as mentioned, most of them are. I think you're better off not watching the kettle boil.
This is my stance. Fire and forget. I get it when I get it.
These are not preorders. These are supplying a company or person the cash to make something new.
My biggest beef is they are making this in China and not the good old US of fething A!
Thirded. I went in for two sledgehammer artillery pieces on this Bones campaign. I'm reasonably certain I'll get them at some point in the next six or so months, but I'm not exactly paying close attention. So long as they get here at some point and the quality is up to spec, I don't really care. I have other things in my life to stress about without adding this to the list.
Only two?
I'm in for three.
I've tried pointing out to some on the KS pages that you are not paying for a guaranteed delivery date or the actual items.
I laid the money down for 3 x BFG because I had the money available at the time and was reasonably expecting the product to be delivered at some point. This was based on Bones' previous record.
I will never lay money down on KS if I can't afford to lose it or suspect the project will not finalise.
If you want guaranteed product for your cash, wait for it to hit retail.
That said, I have been lucky with KS. I even received everything from Gav Tyler's Winter War KS. Four years later and some backers have seen nowt and there was some big money laid down by individuals on that one.
Thanks for tracking all of this. This is the first Bones I got in on, probably a mistake seeing how much @#$% I already have, and yeah it's getting annoying.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Any time that two companies need to coordinate their efforts, in this case Reaper and their manufacturing company, and need to rely on two levels of Customs, in this case those of China and the US, then there is plenty of room for Murphy's Law to be engaged.
Especially since the manufacturing company relies, in turn, on a supply chain for the raw materials.
At least Reaper has been providing frequent updates, and admitted when they were the ones that made a mistake. (Mmmm, crow, it's what's for dinner.) Not going off on a spirit quest to contemplate their navels.
Predicting a secondary company's manufacturing times is an exercise in futility - for both the primary company and the secondary company.
For a manufacturing Kickstarter, of course they are already working on the next one!
Doing otherwise adds another level of delay to the procedure.
The Auld Grump
Humm... take away the timely info, the updates, the communication, eventually getting your product...and you have to robotech KS...lets not open that can of worms...
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Genoside07 wrote: Not worried at all, just a stumble by reaper.. I imagine shipping will start late March.
If you want a nightmare kickstarter just go look at Robotech tactics..
We are fast approaching the 4th year anniversary of when it all started with no real end in sight..
But Palladium games do keep saying they are working on it...
ahhh someone else mentioned it...good good....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/16 07:24:31
I ordered Robotech before Kyoto Secunda and her Clone Sister Kyoto Secunda Prime were born.
They just had their 4th birthday.
Heh, I saw the kickstarter all those years ago and thought to myself "Self...it's Robotech...DO IT!" then I saw palladium books and went, "Self, Don't Do It!, wait until retail". I am glad I listened to myself I even had the old lady talked into getting it for me. Sometimes I am glad I listen to myself, other times not so much :(
I went into Reaper 3 knowing that it took them a long time to get their previous campaigns out the door. There are a lot of other kick starters that deserve more ranting.
I feel you pain. I was hoping to have the Mythos pack before my Call of Cthulhu game started back up.
It's a good deal on miniatures. So I just push down that pain and shift to just being patient. I'm in no rush.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Humm... take away the timely info, the updates, the communication, eventually getting your product...and you have to robotech KS...lets not open that can of worms... .
Don't forget the outright lying and theft of KS funds (at this point, you can't convince me that they have not spend the balance of the KS funding on things other than the KS). I stopped caring about that KS a year ago when I got tired of having a melt down every time I head "we are working on it".
It isn't wrong to spend KS funds on other things- so long as you fulfill your KS promises... I've seen a lot of KS where I've had my doubts about eventual fulfillment, and others where they're stupidly late, but I haven't had those frustrations with Reaper..
Honestly, Reaper are one of the good ones. You don't always know exactly what's going on- but the information is to be had.
Yes, I've been a bit frustrated that they hadn't given us a new estimation for their delivery (until very recently). But six months late is kind of average in my experience.
I used to just say "add six months" to the expected delivery date of your minis Kickstarter. And that was before I found out that On Time kickstarters represent a meager 15% of Ks projects.
Reaper do tell us what's going on- admittedly, they didn't do as well with this as they had in Bones I and II. I still have zero doubt that they will fulfill.
I didn't know that they had told anyone that they were planning Bones IV. I can pretty much guarantee that they're also planning Bones V, VI and VIII. But their policy is to fulfill one Kickstarter before launching another one- which lets us know for sure that they aren't in an accidental Ponzi spiral.
Reaper are a good lot. They can still have my business.
I ordered Robotech before Kyoto Secunda and her Clone Sister Kyoto Secunda Prime were born.
They just had their 4th birthday.
They grow up so fast...
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stroller wrote: Wonders if ANY kickstarters deliver the promised goods on time to promised standard - or whether I just hear about the ones that don't...
I was part of one KS that delivered in full and on time. Unfortunately, the quality was terrible, but it was on time.
15% of Kickstarters deliver in full on time- 85% are late. The trouble is, there's a direct correlation between over funding and late delivery.
I really was impressed by Adam Poots' honesty in announcing a delay before his KS was over.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/20 16:45:08
At the bargain rates in Reaper kickstarters I don't think you get to complain really. "Hey, we'll sell you figures at 1/5 the normal cost. But, uh, we're going to make them in China (Does USA have bones capability? - I'd pay a little extra), and it will take a while to get them." Sounds fine to me. They're super up front about what container is where.
kestral wrote: (Does USA have bones capability? - I'd pay a little extra)
Reaper are building it up. They have a machine that makes some of the things for Bones- they bought it with the first KS money. It can't handle the demand, and I think it is too small for some of the kits, so they still make a lot of them in China (I believe they once said that their machine is now doing all the bases at least).
I want to say their manufacturer in China has 23(? vague memeory of Reaper Bryan mentioning this once, could be me making it up though) machines, several larger than the one Reaper picked up with their KS1 extra cash
and they still take well over a year to make all the bone minis needed to fulfil the KS
2017/02/20 21:46:33
Subject: Re:The frustraition that is reaper bones 3
CNY doesn't tell you jack with their updates. Their manufacturing culture says everything is fine until it's not. KS creators *do* need to tell backers this. "We tell you what our manufacturers tell us" doesn't absolve them the responsibility of saying "but they don't tell us anything bad until it actually happens". Reaper's gonna KS Bones IV after backers receive their stuff. And they didn't plan Bones IV (at least like CMON plans on using KS as part of its regular business model) except Reaper fans kept bugging them to do so. The THIRD "What do you want to see in Bones" thread is THIRTY pages long. OTOH, Each Bones KS pulls in less money (only 2.9M in the last one) from fewer backers, so maybe you (and the internationals who refused to pay "actual shipping costs" even though Reaper still subsidized shipping) have a point.
CMON's about the only competition against Reaper Bones for cheap bulk plastic miniatures, but go ahead and read the complaints backers are making about them.
Otherwise, retail's your best bet, at 2x KS prices. I know WizKids will be releasing their pre-primed miniatures any day now. Y'know, the ones that were supposed to be out half a year ago.