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Made in es
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

Apologies if a thread like this exists, but I did do a quick search of the forum and couldn't find much beyond a thread about a warhammer TV article that only got a few replies. I imagine it has been touched upon in News & Rumours somewhere, but I couldn't find a dedicated thread, so here goes...

These "Gathering Storm" books, especially the latest one, with an Eldar deity with a sword on the front, giving you rules to combine all current (space) elf armies into a single force, is giving me an unsettling sense of deja-vu. To me, this latest release is unerringly similar to End Times: Khaine, and the whole string of Gathering Storm releases, with the advancing of the storyline, releases of big expensive kits (though admittedly not quite the same scale) just screams End Times.

So my question is this; is 40k going the same way Warhammer Fantasy went? Could we all be playing "Age of the Emperor" in a couple of years' time?

I want to stray mainly away from a background discussion. By all means, talk about it if you wish, but, to be perfectly honest, I'm not overly bothered if the storyline advances at all, provided the game stays the same. I'd prefer it to stay the same - the background is a setting for a boardgame, not a TV series, in my opinion - but, ultimately, provided the game stays the same, I'm personally not that bothered if a few planets no longer "exist".

What does bother me, however, is whether or not 40k becomes a simplified, AoS-like game. What I make from this latest string of releases is that GW saw how well the End Times (a last ditch sale rush for Fantasy) and then the conversion to AoS worked for WHFB and are now thinking they can replicate this success with 40k.

Again, this isn't the place to discuss the merits or lack thereof of AoS but, regardless of your opinion of it, I want to know whether you think Age of Sigmar will soon have a futuristic sister game. While it's not the place to say why, or argue on the subject, my opinion on Age of Sigmar is clear and I'd hate to see 40k - a game I've really been enjoying recently - go the same way. In all honesty, I think that'll be it for wargaming for me if it does.

To me the signs are all there, or am I just paranoid? After all, I very much doubt GW feel that 40k has the (sale-related) issues WHFB had when they began the conversion to AoS, and GW has been heading in such a "positive" direction since.

So, Dakka, is the "Age of the Emperor" upon us?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/09 08:18:36


DT:90S+++G++MB++IPwhfb06#+++D+A+++/eWD309R+T(T)DM+

9th Age Fantasy Rules

 
   
Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

How come this thread hasn't been locked yet?

Long story short - GW said that 40k is not getting WFB treatment, 40k is still going to be there, the 13th is going to be a failure for Chaos too, the game gets a mechanical rework in 8th edition, that's all. No world resets, no storylines thousand years later, no sigmarines. Well, maybe some sigmarines. :v

They're just shifting the current, stagnant status quo, that's all.

2014's GW Apologist of the Year Award winner.

http://media.oglaf.com/comic/ulric.jpg 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

My fear is less that they blow up the background, because they obviously won't.
It's that they would blow up the rules, hoping to boost 40k like they did AoS to Fantasy.

Personally I would like 40k simplified, but not that simplified.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Orlando

I am afraid to spend money on building a new army. GWs record is not good in this respect. In 2nd they flat out told us to our face (we asked them at a convention)our armies would be perfectly usable in the new edition with maybe a few new models needed. Mine and many other peoples armies went obsolete overnight and some models still have not made a come back.

AoS we had a great game and once again, my several warhammer armies were completely obsolete. I have had zero interest in AoS. Glad I never could find a lizardman paint scheme I liked before I sunk a bunch of money into that army.

Now we have this new edition on the horizon. They are following the exact same path as AoS. They are doing a mechanical rework? Whats the point in investing in an army if half of it is going to be obsolete and the main theme you wanted to run it for is now illegal?

They need to post out a very clear official message that all models are going to be viable in their current forms. All formations will remain usable or if not, at least say that formations and decurons will be going away. I see them having a very poor year as no one wants to spend on new armies.

If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM! 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

Latest rumors say 40K will get a simplified, streamlined game, which you can infer means very different rules mechanics from what we have now. If they import a lot of rules from Age of Sigmar, all the better. I love playing Age of Sigmar, and it's quite a study in how 4 pages of rules can make for a great game. My baseless speculation, or maybe gut feeling, is that the codex system we have now is going away. It's going to be replaced with Campaign Books containing all the units that were used in that campaign. When new models or a unit is introduced, it's introduced in a campaign book, along with a bunch of other models/units from other armies. Again, see Age of Sigmar (or even Warmachine/Hordes releases, except that's changing now). When an army gets a bunch of stuff scattered across several releases, GW will release a "codex" that will simply be a repackaging of all those units from other books. Rules I'd like to see- models with lots of wounds get degraded characteristics and abilities as they get wounded. A rework of the vehicle rules- they are just bad. They show the "bolt on" aspect they've had since 2nd edition, and don't really flow with the rest of the 40K rule set. But that's just what I (want/think) will happen.

7th edition will live on in a 7.5 rule set for 30K. Or so the rumors go.

Last rumor- after the Gathering Storm Book III:Rise of the Primarch, we'll be getting a new edition. So are these the End Times? For 7th Edition, yes. For 40K? /shrug There is a lot of new fluff getting written that affects a lot of armies, stuff that has never been written before. Games Workshop likes to walk a very fine line, and when they deny that the Gathering Storm is not the End Times for 40K, that is true. It's called The Gathering Storm, while in Warhammer Fantasy Battles it was actually called "The End Times". There are a lot of similarities between the End Times and Gathering Storm. IMHO, The Gathering Storm IS the End Times for 40K.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 The Shadow wrote:
Apologies if a thread like this exists, but I did do a quick search of the forum and couldn't find much beyond a thread about a warhammer TV article that only got a few replies. I imagine it has been touched upon in News & Rumours somewhere, but I couldn't find a dedicated thread, so here goes...

These "Gathering Storm" books, especially the latest one, with an Eldar deity with a sword on the front, giving you rules to combine all current (space) elf armies into a single force, is giving me an unsettling sense of deja-vu. To me, this latest release is unerringly similar to End Times: Khaine, and the whole string of Gathering Storm releases, with the advancing of the storyline, releases of big expensive kits (though admittedly not quite the same scale) just screams End Times.

So my question is this; is 40k going the same way Warhammer Fantasy went? Could we all be playing "Age of the Emperor" in a couple of years' time?

I want to stray mainly away from a background discussion. My all means, talk about it if you wish, but, to be perfectly honest, I'm not overly bothered if the storyline advances at all, provided the game stays the same. I'd prefer it to stay the same - the background is a setting for a boardgame, not a TV series, in my opinion - but, ultimately, provided the game stays the same, I'm personally not that bothered if a few planets no longer "exist".

What does bother me, however, is whether or not 40k becomes a simplified, AoS-like game. What I make from this latest string of releases is that GW saw how well the End Times (a last ditch sale rush for Fantasy) and then the conversion to AoS worked for WHFB and are now thinking they can replicate this success with 40k.

Again, this isn't the place to discuss the merits or lack thereof of AoS but, regardless of your opinion of it, I want to know whether you think Age of Sigmar will soon have a futuristic sister game. While it's not the place to say why, or argue on the subject, my opinion on Age of Sigmar is clear and I'd hate to see 40k - a game I've really been enjoying recently - go the same way. In all honesty, I think that'll be it for wargaming for me if it does.

To me the signs are all there, or am I just paranoid? After all, I very much doubt GW feel that 40k has the (sale-related) issues WHFB had when they began the conversion to AoS, and GW has been heading in such a "positive" direction since.

So, Dakka, is the "Age of the Emperor" upon us?


I think you're closer to the mark then you know with your idea of them taking from the ideas of end times and AOS. GW has almost certainly LEARNED from this, they learned what worked (end times on the whole worked nicely. people locally where more excited about WFB then they had been in ages) and most importantly, what DIDN'T work (totally destroying the setting and not having a points cost) I imagine they'll take what worked for them with AoS and end times and see if it'll also work for 40k.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Klerych wrote:
How come this thread hasn't been locked yet?

Long story short - GW said that 40k is not getting WFB treatment, 40k is still going to be there, the 13th is going to be a failure for Chaos too, the game gets a mechanical rework in 8th edition, that's all. No world resets, no storylines thousand years later, no sigmarines. Well, maybe some sigmarines. :v

They're just shifting the current, stagnant status quo, that's all.


They said that on FB right? That's hardly contract they are required to keep. We are talking about company that denied arrival of space hulk week before it was announced despite it being pretty much leaked by then.

And marketing sense they know now how much FB sales froze when AOS hints started to come. They wouldn't want same happen with 40k so they have that incentive to keep denying it.

So no I don't trust their word on that one bit. More reliable source is frankly Atia etc which hints though that means it's not 100% identical. But say rules getting similar simplification wouldn't still break that statement but would still suck big time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think you're closer to the mark then you know with your idea of them taking from the ideas of end times and AOS. GW has almost certainly LEARNED from this, they learned what worked (end times on the whole worked nicely. people locally where more excited about WFB then they had been in ages) and most importantly, what DIDN'T work (totally destroying the setting and not having a points cost) I imagine they'll take what worked for them with AoS and end times and see if it'll also work for 40k.


Problem with that theory is lead times. By the time AOS was released work on 8th ed was well on it's way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 07:52:36


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Really worried that 8th edition will be similar to AoS (which I despise). Oh well, I guess it will be WarmaHorde for me if thats the case
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




It still troubles me that people see GW as stupid enough to shoot itself in the 70% foot.

Yes, they shut down WHFB, but it was less than 10% of their revenue, terrible profit margin and still going downhill.

Why would they ever do something like that to 40K before it becomes their weakest cash cow?

It just makes no sense.

Maybe if people understood that AoS was a smart decision they would realize it's unlikely to be applied to current 40K...



Also, people are saying AoS is terrible... have you played it lately? it seems people are enjoying it a whole lot and that it's bringing lots of new customers to GW.
   
Made in gb
Pauper with Promise




Notts, UK

I hope it gets AoS'd from a rules perspective.

Simple, streamlined core. Add on special rules. And stat cards to refer to.

Hopefully the General's handbook will be built in from the start though...
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




morgoth wrote:
It still troubles me that people see GW as stupid enough to shoot itself in the 70% foot.

Yes, they shut down WHFB, but it was less than 10% of their revenue, terrible profit margin and still going downhill.

Why would they ever do something like that to 40K before it becomes their weakest cash cow?

It just makes no sense.

Maybe if people understood that AoS was a smart decision they would realize it's unlikely to be applied to current 40K...



Also, people are saying AoS is terrible... have you played it lately? it seems people are enjoying it a whole lot and that it's bringing lots of new customers to GW.


So in a breath, you're saying that AoS brought a lot of new customer to GW and in another, that GW would shoot itself in the foot if it AoSified 40K ??? Don't get me wrong, it would be a gamble (and I'm not convinced that AoS brought in a net influx of players but that's for another thread) considering 40K is their cash cow, but it would hardly be shocking for a company that describes itself as a model company (where the rules are secondary if not tertiary), especially if AoS is a financial success.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 14:30:44


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
morgoth wrote:
It still troubles me that people see GW as stupid enough to shoot itself in the 70% foot.

Yes, they shut down WHFB, but it was less than 10% of their revenue, terrible profit margin and still going downhill.

Why would they ever do something like that to 40K before it becomes their weakest cash cow?

It just makes no sense.

Maybe if people understood that AoS was a smart decision they would realize it's unlikely to be applied to current 40K...



Also, people are saying AoS is terrible... have you played it lately? it seems people are enjoying it a whole lot and that it's bringing lots of new customers to GW.


So in a breath, you're saying that AoS brought a lot of new customer to GW and in another, that GW would shoot itself in the foot if it AoSified 40K ??? Don't get me wrong, it would be a gamble (and I'm not convinced that AoS brought in a net influx of players but that's for another thread) considering 40K is their cash cow, but it would hardly be shocking for a company that describes itself as a model company (where the rules are secondary if not tertiary), especially if AoS is a financial success.


It would be shocking and beyond slowed.

And yes, AoS-ifying an overly bloated long-dying game is not the same thing as AoS-ifying a successful one.

It makes sense to put down your old dying horse, it doesn't make sense to put down your prize stallion.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
morgoth wrote:
It still troubles me that people see GW as stupid enough to shoot itself in the 70% foot.

Yes, they shut down WHFB, but it was less than 10% of their revenue, terrible profit margin and still going downhill.

Why would they ever do something like that to 40K before it becomes their weakest cash cow?

It just makes no sense.

Maybe if people understood that AoS was a smart decision they would realize it's unlikely to be applied to current 40K...



Also, people are saying AoS is terrible... have you played it lately? it seems people are enjoying it a whole lot and that it's bringing lots of new customers to GW.


So in a breath, you're saying that AoS brought a lot of new customer to GW and in another, that GW would shoot itself in the foot if it AoSified 40K ??? Don't get me wrong, it would be a gamble (and I'm not convinced that AoS brought in a net influx of players but that's for another thread) considering 40K is their cash cow, but it would hardly be shocking for a company that describes itself as a model company (where the rules are secondary if not tertiary), especially if AoS is a financial success.


Depends what you mean. Yes, CURRENT AoS is bringing in a lot of money and new players, but when it came out? Hell no. People hated (and some still do) AoS, and it was a terrible move. GW only did it because WHFB was selling so badly and they wanted to reinvigorate sales. 40k is not on a decline, especially with Magnus/Start Collecting boxes boosting sales.

~1.5k
Successful Trades: Ashrog (1), Iron35 (1), Rathryan (3), Leth (1), Eshm (1), Zeke48 (1), Gorkamorka12345 (1),
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Made in th
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




New Zealand

From GWs point of view, AoS revived an old line and bought a bunch of new people into their stores. The older players who bought maybe 1-2 boxes of new stuff every year are essentially a dry well in purely commercial terms. The people who are eating up all the new 40k releases will eat anything up as long as it's dressed in gaudy bling and is 6"+ tall, GW need not fear losing these players.

AoS was the beta, the dry run, and it paid off. That's the lesson GW will take away and apply to 40k.

5000
 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

GW will deny 40K End Times up until the day 8th Edition is released. That's the GW way. What form 8th edition will take is being hotly debated. I think one thing everyone can agree on though. Something needs to be done.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




In terms of rules -- They are for sure brining some sort of "Grand Alliance" system to 40k. Anyone denying that at this point is likely just choosing not to see it. Our local GW store owner just got back from a trip to corporate and says that they are likely also brining in the shooting mechanic as well as the monstrous creature wound chart from AoS. He said they strongly hinted at additional simplifications but swore up and down that 8th will NOT be AoS with power armor.


He also mentioned a lot of managers being concerned about codex invalidation on day 1 of 8th. They were apparently told that the 8th ed rule book would have a section on how to use your existing codex with the new rules. That way you can continue to use your books until they get the standard update they would recieve in any edition. Also, his inference from the release schedule they mentioned was that 8th would fall somewhere around August.

Take all that with a grain of salt, but as I've mentioned before, this manager has yet to be wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/08 16:24:04


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

Col. Dash wrote:
I am afraid to spend money on building a new army. GWs record is not good in this respect. In 2nd they flat out told us to our face (we asked them at a convention)our armies would be perfectly usable in the new edition with maybe a few new models needed. Mine and many other peoples armies went obsolete overnight and some models still have not made a come back.

AoS we had a great game and once again, my several warhammer armies were completely obsolete. I have had zero interest in AoS. Glad I never could find a lizardman paint scheme I liked before I sunk a bunch of money into that army.

Now we have this new edition on the horizon. They are following the exact same path as AoS. They are doing a mechanical rework? Whats the point in investing in an army if half of it is going to be obsolete and the main theme you wanted to run it for is now illegal?

They need to post out a very clear official message that all models are going to be viable in their current forms. All formations will remain usable or if not, at least say that formations and decurons will be going away. I see them having a very poor year as no one wants to spend on new armies.


Dude, there's no WHFB army that was left obsolete in AoS. You can even play tomb-kings in AoS (which are still a thing in the lore). Seriously, what are you even talking about? Nothing from the Old World is illegal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 16:20:48


 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

Lord Kragan wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
I am afraid to spend money on building a new army. GWs record is not good in this respect. In 2nd they flat out told us to our face (we asked them at a convention)our armies would be perfectly usable in the new edition with maybe a few new models needed. Mine and many other peoples armies went obsolete overnight and some models still have not made a come back.

AoS we had a great game and once again, my several warhammer armies were completely obsolete. I have had zero interest in AoS. Glad I never could find a lizardman paint scheme I liked before I sunk a bunch of money into that army.

Now we have this new edition on the horizon. They are following the exact same path as AoS. They are doing a mechanical rework? Whats the point in investing in an army if half of it is going to be obsolete and the main theme you wanted to run it for is now illegal?

They need to post out a very clear official message that all models are going to be viable in their current forms. All formations will remain usable or if not, at least say that formations and decurons will be going away. I see them having a very poor year as no one wants to spend on new armies.


Dude, there's no WHFB army that was left obsolete in AoS. You can even play tomb-kings in AoS (which are still a thing in the lore). Seriously, what are you even talking about? Nothing from the Old World is illegal.


Thank god for that. I'll just nip down to my GW store and buy some, necrosphinx where are you ?



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Dude, there's no WHFB army that was left obsolete in AoS. You can even play tomb-kings in AoS (which are still a thing in the lore). Seriously, what are you even talking about? Nothing from the Old World is illegal.


Asking out of genuine curiosity because I don't know -

I thought they squatted the Brettonians. True? Or no? If so, how did they handle that? Is it like "Here's a warscroll for your stuff but you'll never get an update", or something else?

At any rate, like others have said, while some things from AoS are FOR SURE headed to 40k, you have to remember that Fantasy (much as I loved it) was dead/dying. 40K needs a refresh, but is nowhere near the state Fantasy was in, so there's no reason to expect a completely different game like what we got with Fantasy to AoS.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

Tycho wrote:
Dude, there's no WHFB army that was left obsolete in AoS. You can even play tomb-kings in AoS (which are still a thing in the lore). Seriously, what are you even talking about? Nothing from the Old World is illegal.


Asking out of genuine curiosity because I don't know -

I thought they squatted the Brettonians. True? Or no? If so, how did they handle that? Is it like "Here's a warscroll for your stuff but you'll never get an update", or something else?

At any rate, like others have said, while some things from AoS are FOR SURE headed to 40k, you have to remember that Fantasy (much as I loved it) was dead/dying. 40K needs a refresh, but is nowhere near the state Fantasy was in, so there's no reason to expect a completely different game like what we got with Fantasy to AoS.


Metal models were all removed without exception, which was 100% of bretonnia's range. They "are" squatted, in the sense that they are OoP, for now anyways, but it's not a given they'll be so forever, given that the lore mentions whole nations of chivalrous warriors devoted to the aelf gods like certain group was in its day. In fact, knights in AoS are heavily tied with Tyrion so I'd not be surprised if he gets human followers (just as Slaanesh is rumoured to have aelf followers-thus bringing morathi-themed armies back), which in essence would be what Bretonnia was.

On the other hand you've got rules for the units, perfectly legal and usable. In so far we don't know on the matter of updates, since no model has been updated yet. PERIOD. What we do know for sure is that point costs WILL be and ARE being updated. Tomb-Kings for example will be getting a (deserved, those guys were noticeably undercosted across the board) points increase.

For rules it's a bit too soon to speak, but for points and support they'll be continuing doing so, so saying it's obsolete and illegal is a misnomer as big as they come.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/08 16:50:56


 
   
Made in es
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

Thanks for all the replies guys, long post incoming:

Klerych wrote:How come this thread hasn't been locked yet?

Long story short - GW said that 40k is not getting WFB treatment, 40k is still going to be there, the 13th is going to be a failure for Chaos too, the game gets a mechanical rework in 8th edition, that's all. No world resets, no storylines thousand years later, no sigmarines. Well, maybe some sigmarines. :v

They're just shifting the current, stagnant status quo, that's all.

As someone said, just because GW has said it, doesn't mean it'll turn out to be true. In fact, quite the opposite. Of course GW are going to deny it if 8th edition is coming, regardless of how big a change it is, just as they would for a new codex. If GW advertised a new edition/codex a month or so in advance, sales for that game system/army would pretty much completely dry up, as people hold off buying new models in case they're not viable once the changes hit. 8th edition 40k is no different. As another post said, GW will deny 8th Edition right up until the pre-orders come out.

Tamwulf wrote:Latest rumors say 40K will get a simplified, streamlined game, which you can infer means very different rules mechanics from what we have now. If they import a lot of rules from Age of Sigmar, all the better. I love playing Age of Sigmar, and it's quite a study in how 4 pages of rules can make for a great game. My baseless speculation, or maybe gut feeling, is that the codex system we have now is going away. It's going to be replaced with Campaign Books containing all the units that were used in that campaign.

7th edition will live on in a 7.5 rule set for 30K. Or so the rumors go.

Last rumor- after the Gathering Storm Book III:Rise of the Primarch, we'll be getting a new edition. So are these the End Times? For 7th Edition, yes. For 40K? /shrug There is a lot of new fluff getting written that affects a lot of armies, stuff that has never been written before. Games Workshop likes to walk a very fine line, and when they deny that the Gathering Storm is not the End Times for 40K, that is true. It's called The Gathering Storm, while in Warhammer Fantasy Battles it was actually called "The End Times". There are a lot of similarities between the End Times and Gathering Storm. IMHO, The Gathering Storm IS the End Times for 40K.

40k could do with simplifying, true, but not the complete dumbing down and stupidity that WHFB received. I'm all for simpler rules but, in my opinion, a four-page ruleset just means a game is not in-depth enough. Forty, yes, fourteen, at a stretch, but a four page ruleset is a job half-done. And, above all, I don't want to have to "laugh manically" every time I want my Harlequins to charge, or any of the other stupid crap like that that AoS introduced.

Yeah, I too can see the Codex system going away, which, again, I hate. It's really annoyed me that GW has done away with conventional army books with AoS and split armies that certainly did not need splitting into far, far too many different armies. It's like butter stretched over too much bread, to quote a certain Hobbit. Whilst the idea of a Grand Alliance is cool, we already have a similar system in 40k and I would hate for the Codexes to be split into different armies. I don't want to have to buy three different books to use a single army.

If 40k is to go, I'd like the ruleset at least to live on in 30k. I'd probably move over to that system almost exclusively if that were the case. It has caught my eye beforehand.

And true, the name "End Times" did very explicitly point to the "End", but there's no reason the "Gathering Storm" could be the build-up to a massive Chaos explosion or something similar that would completely wipe out the 40k universe as we know it and pave the way for a completely different ruleset.

BrianDavion wrote:I think you're closer to the mark then you know with your idea of them taking from the ideas of end times and AOS. GW has almost certainly LEARNED from this, they learned what worked (end times on the whole worked nicely. people locally where more excited about WFB then they had been in ages) and most importantly, what DIDN'T work (totally destroying the setting and not having a points cost) I imagine they'll take what worked for them with AoS and end times and see if it'll also work for 40k.

Yeah, I'm worried I'm close to the mark too... But you bring up a good point in that GW will not only have learned from what worked, but also from what didn't work. So, at the very least, if 40k does get the AoS treatment, we'll at least have points values and a way to play competitively from the outset, and maybe no stupid rules that have players making a fool of themselves or acting like children to get the benefit of a certain rule.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:Really worried that 8th edition will be similar to AoS (which I despise). Oh well, I guess it will be WarmaHorde for me if thats the case

Yep, I'm out as well if this is the case. I may keep on playing Kings of War or, as I mentioned, switch to 30k, if it remains similar, but if I'm honest I may just quit the hobby altogether. I'll be graduating soon and looking for jobs, my own place and probably be short on time and money. Not the best time to have a wargaming hobby.

morgoth wrote:It still troubles me that people see GW as stupid enough to shoot itself in the 70% foot.

Yes, they shut down WHFB, but it was less than 10% of their revenue, terrible profit margin and still going downhill.

Why would they ever do something like that to 40K before it becomes their weakest cash cow?

It just makes no sense.

Maybe if people understood that AoS was a smart decision they would realize it's unlikely to be applied to current 40K...

Also, people are saying AoS is terrible... have you played it lately? it seems people are enjoying it a whole lot and that it's bringing lots of new customers to GW.

True, but I'm worried that GW won't be focusing on the fact that WHFB was a failing game, but that AoS improved sales, and will hope that, regardless of how well the respective systems are doing, an AoS treatment would similarly improve sales for 40k.

And yes, I have played AoS recently and do so semi-regularly. I still like going to my local GW game nights, and, although I try and play 40k possible, I always bring AoS, just in case. And so I do play it occasionally. The truth of the matter is that I just don't like it. I find many rules silly, and think it's a game that lacks depth.

Russell's teapot wrote:I hope it gets AoS'd from a rules perspective.

Simple, streamlined core. Add on special rules. And stat cards to refer to.

Hopefully the General's handbook will be built in from the start though...

I have to say, the addition of special rules would add that bit of extra depth that would really improve an AoS-like game, but I'm worried that GW won't want to have a middle ground. Also, I think with AoS GW intentionally did away with having to refer to several books, because that's what younger players - their real target market - struggles with. There's loads of things in AoS that give a +1 bonus to hit, for example, and that could have easily been wrapped into a single, special rule in the ruleset and saved a lot of text/reading on the warscrolls, but GW chose not to do so. For that reason, and the fact it would probably treble the length of the ruleset, I'm not confident GW would retain a special rules section in a 40k AoS.

Tamwulf wrote:GW will deny 40K End Times up until the day 8th Edition is released. That's the GW way. What form 8th edition will take is being hotly debated. I think one thing everyone can agree on though. Something needs to be done.

Agree on the denying. And also agree on something needing to be done, but, as I said earlier, a complete overhaul and dumbing-down of the rules, and basically a switch to a different wargame altogether, is not it.

Tycho wrote:In terms of rules -- They are for sure brining some sort of "Grand Alliance" system to 40k. Anyone denying that at this point is likely just choosing not to see it. Our local GW store owner just got back from a trip to corporate and says that they are likely also brining in the shooting mechanic as well as the monstrous creature wound chart from AoS. He said they strongly hinted at additional simplifications but swore up and down that 8th will NOT be AoS with power armor.

He also mentioned a lot of managers being concerned about codex invalidation on day 1 of 8th. They were apparently told that the 8th ed rule book would have a section on how to use your existing codex with the new rules. That way you can continue to use your books until they get the standard update they would recieve in any edition. Also, his inference from the release schedule they mentioned was that 8th would fall somewhere around August.

Take all that with a grain of salt, but as I've mentioned before, this manager has yet to be wrong.

Ugh, I hate the shooting mechanics in AoS, and it's probably one of the sections of 40k that actually works well. Again, simplifications may be a good thing, but not to the extent of AoS. Having codexes valid until a new release is something I can deal with though, unless, as I mentioned before, I have to buy 3 books when that codex does get invalidated.

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The main opinion I'd like to stress here, with all this talk about simplification being needed for 40k, is that, well, it's not. Yes, 40k does get too complicated, but I don't think that's because there's too many rules. Yes, you can't learn it in an afternoon like you can with AoS, but is that a bad thing? Most players get a good grasp of it after a few games, and I'm confident that everyone on this thread would say they "know" the rules. The issue comes with the long FAQs that, sadly, are necessary, and the huge YMDC threads that, sadly, don't really clarify anything. It's the grey areas that are the problem, not the fact that you have to compare Strength and Toughness of two different models to find out what dice rolls cause a wound. If GW can clarify the rules so that these grey areas are minimised, but retain the depth of the rules, I think the game would be perfect. Sadly, I think GW will want to appeal to new, young players for whom comparing Strength and Toughness of two models is too much "effort" and hence change the game completely to a dumbed-down version, rather than working on streamlining and clarifying what is a perfectly good and enjoyable wargame.

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